Nakomi!!

[Elder_Haman]

6 minutes ago, Sir_Charrid said:

But as an Athiest myself I totally accept that my personal feelings colour how I read the book.

I suspect that is true. My Christianity certainly colors mine.

 

7 minutes ago, Sir_Charrid said:

you had mentioned entropy and how it shows the dark one and the creator are not equal.

My point is that the DO and the Creator are equal. The Dark One's essence is entropy and destruction while the Creator's essence is ... well ... Creation.

[Scarloc99]

23 minutes ago, Elder_Haman said:

I suspect that is true. My Christianity certainly colors mine.

 

My point is that the DO and the Creator are equal. The Dark One's essence is entropy and destruction while the Creator's essence is ... well ... Creation.

The issue with this is that of this is the case then the dark one needs to always have some interaction with the world, locking him up and removing all his influence means the world never decays as it naturally should. 
 

If what you postulate was true then instead of being imprisoned and always forgotten about the DO should be locked away with a tiny window to allow him to have some sway. 
 

Your argument therefore makes the point that the Dark one is similar to a fallen angel. Not equal but too powerful to leave in the universe, and the creator is in fact all. 
 

Satan is not the equal of God, he is a fallen angel in the same way as Mordoth in the lord of the rings. He can never undo the creation, and, was always destined to occupy his place in hell (if you believe god knows all) and have an influence. 
 

By locking away the force of entropy in a prison that ensures it can never interact with the world the Creator is taking away the Ying to its Yang. Much like a fantasy world where there are lawful gods (who believe progress should be stagnant), there must chaotic gods (who believe in extreme progress at any cost). If you lock one side away the universe either ceases to change and so does of apathy, or rips itself apart. 
 

I know RJ was a lover of eastern philophosies and much of the Darkone idea actually reminds me more of stories from Asia then it does the western religions. 

Edited December 12, 2022 by Sir_Charrid

[Elder_Haman]

11 minutes ago, Sir_Charrid said:

Your argument therefore makes the point that the Dark one is similar to a fallen angel. Not equal but too powerful to leave in the universe, and the creator is in fact all. 

I think you're confusing my argument with someone else's. My argument is that the Dark One's existence is necessary to existence. But while the Dark One must exist for Creation to exist, he is too powerful to run free and unfettered.

 

Think of the Dark One like the core of a nuclear reactor that powers everything. So long as the core is sealed, everything works like it should. But if the containment systems fail, there will be catastrophic results. The Dragon is basically the Creator's maintenance plan.

[Scarloc99]

1 minute ago, Elder_Haman said:

I think you're confusing my argument with someone else's. My argument is that the Dark One's existence is necessary to existence. But while the Dark One must exist for Creation to exist, he is too powerful to run free and unfettered.

 

Think of the Dark One like the core of a nuclear reactor that powers everything. So long as the core is sealed, everything works like it should. But if the containment systems fail, there will be catastrophic results. The Dragon is basically the Creator's maintenance plan.

But the prison he is in removes all his influence on the wheel, it cuts him off from all creation for as long as he is in it until humanity re drills back in. That is a very long time without him influencing the pattern. 

[Elder_Haman]

2 minutes ago, Sir_Charrid said:

But the prison he is in removes all his influence on the wheel, it cuts him off from all creation for as long as he is in it until humanity re drills back in. That is a very long time without him influencing the pattern. 

Correct. When imprisoned, the Dark One is operating as intended. Shut away from everything, unable to touch anything, he is present to power Creation. Then humanity starts making cracks in the reactor core and suddenly - able to touch the pattern - things begin to fail.

 

(And - even while imprisoned - the Dark One influences things on the outside. His existence permits people to choose destruction, cruelty, etc.)

[DojoToad]

43 minutes ago, Sir_Charrid said:

I know RJ was a lover of eastern philophosies and much of the Darkone idea actually reminds me more of stories from Asia then it does the western religions. 

After reading 'Origins' there is a lot less eastern philosophy than I originally believed.  At least volume-wise.  The books themselves seemed to be more eastern.

[DojoToad]

1 hour ago, Sir_Charrid said:

I will still say that for me it would have been far far better if ultimately we had discovered that there was no Creator, or the creator was entirely absent having moved on, I think it is one of the weakest aspects of the book and the fact the character only appears twice makes me feel that RJ after eye of the world moved away from the idea and possibly BS adding it in is not something RJ would have done in the end. It adds nothing to the story. 

If the Creator moved on, then a mere fallen Angel would have extreme influence over the abandoned creation - only having to overcome inertia of the original design. A formidable task but not insurmountable. 

[Scarloc99]

7 hours ago, DojoToad said:

If the Creator moved on, then a mere fallen Angel would have extreme influence over the abandoned creation - only having to overcome inertia of the original design. A formidable task but not insurmountable. 

I agree, but if we are to believe BS thinking then the creator hasn’t moved on unfortunately. 

[Scarloc99]

7 hours ago, DojoToad said:

After reading 'Origins' there is a lot less eastern philosophy than I originally believed.  At least volume-wise.  The books themselves seemed to be more eastern.

I haven’t read origins, what exactly are his sources for it, how much access was he given to original notes for instance? 
 

My concern for works like this is how removed it is from the original source. Both in terms of the subject no longer being with us, and the time that has passed since those involved were in the material, and how much they become an opinion piece where the question “why is the cup blue” is already answered in the head of the writer of Origins. 

[DojoToad]

1 hour ago, Sir_Charrid said:

I haven’t read origins, what exactly are his sources for it, how much access was he given to original notes for instance? 
 

My concern for works like this is how removed it is from the original source. Both in terms of the subject no longer being with us, and the time that has passed since those involved were in the material, and how much they become an opinion piece where the question “why is the cup blue” is already answered in the head of the writer of Origins. 

There was definitely some interesting material in the book - though there did seem to be a lot of guessing.

 

ML had access to Harriet, Team Jordan, and RJ's notes.  But there still seemed to be plenty of rooms for assumptions.

 

In the end, I don't know how much of the book RJ would say was accurate.  But it is all we have and are likely to get.

[Scarloc99]

2 hours ago, DojoToad said:

There was definitely some interesting material in the book - though there did seem to be a lot of guessing.

 

ML had access to Harriet, Team Jordan, and RJ's notes.  But there still seemed to be plenty of rooms for assumptions.

 

In the end, I don't know how much of the book RJ would say was accurate.  But it is all we have and are likely to get.

Reading an interview he talked about being rushed and not looking at all the notes. He also apparently wrote the book because his agent said he should? I may buy it nice the price drops. 

[DojoToad]

15 minutes ago, Sir_Charrid said:

Reading an interview he talked about being rushed and not looking at all the notes. He also apparently wrote the book because his agent said he should? I may buy it nice the price drops. 

Nice to have for completion's sake, but can't say I'd recommend it.

[Stedding Tofu]

16 hours ago, Elder_Haman said:

The fact of the Dark One being sealed inside of the Creator's creation implies that the Dark One's presence is necessary to the existence of Creation and the sealing implies that the Dark One's inherent power is sufficient, absent proper containment, to nullify all of creation which implies power equivalent to the Creator.

 

I can get behind most of that except that the sealing away suggests (not proves) to me that the Creator is superior.  Otherwise of course there would be an infinite span of Time in which they nullify each other with Creation being frustrated or destroyed.  Perhaps the Creation we see in series is a result of a one in a million event in which The Creator finally overcame his equal The Dark One and managed to seal him away.  But the logic of equivalence is that The Dark One might always be able to avoid containment and Creation would never come to be.

 

As the whole premise of the series is that the turnings of The Wheel are infinite then The Dark One is always bound - and rebound by mortals when he comes close to escaping - so he always loses.  That doesn't sound like an equal.  Elan's/Ishamael's bet is that The Dark One will eventually break free and that as this only needs to happen once for him to win and destroy Creation it is inevitable.  But all he would do (and as far as we know he never has) is destroy this version of  Creation and then The Creator would start afresh.  The problem with seeing them as equals in story is The Creator always wins and The Dark One is always bound.

 

Also, The Dark One's existence doesn't seem necessary to the existence of Creation itself but to the continuation of Free Will.  Rand's epiphany when he is still trying to decide whether to "kill" The Dark One, if such a thing is possible, or seal him to away is that The Dark One is necessary to enable a certain type of existence - human society really - rather than the physical world, it's systems and plants and animals.  Which, taken further, seems to imply that The Dark One is a necessary component of The Creator's plan and his system, however powerful or troublesome, rather than an equal.

 

13 hours ago, SinisterDeath said:

That "Rand" during the last battle IS the story that the creator bound the DO at the moment of creation... After all there is NO beginning within the wheel of time. 

 

Lovely thought but we are very much in a chicken and egg paradox!

 

13 hours ago, Elder_Haman said:

I think you're confusing my argument with someone else's. My argument is that the Dark One's existence is necessary to existence. But while the Dark One must exist for Creation to exist, he is too powerful to run free and unfettered.

 

Think of the Dark One like the core of a nuclear reactor that powers everything. So long as the core is sealed, everything works like it should. But if the containment systems fail, there will be catastrophic results. The Dragon is basically the Creator's maintenance plan.

 

12 hours ago, Elder_Haman said:

Correct. When imprisoned, the Dark One is operating as intended. Shut away from everything, unable to touch anything, he is present to power Creation. Then humanity starts making cracks in the reactor core and suddenly - able to touch the pattern - things begin to fail.

 

(And - even while imprisoned - the Dark One influences things on the outside. His existence permits people to choose destruction, cruelty, etc.)

 

Both these points seem to reduce The Dark One to an eternal slave chained at the rockface or plugged into the mains to ensure Creation runs as intended.  A powerful force, for sure, but one in your own words too powerful to run free and unfettered.  Doesn't sound like an equal to me (after all, humans are his jailors) - more a dangerous but necessary adversary and an eternal prisoner used for The Creator's purposes.

[SinisterDeath]

1 hour ago, Stedding Tofu said:

 

Lovely thought but we are very much in a chicken and egg paradox!

Good news! RJ created a word with neither beginnings for endings. 😎

[Blackbyrd]

I'm pretty meh on this reveal. I like Sanderson but I don't doubt he was in over his head in many regards writing the finale.  The whole Nakomi thing does not write well, one of the weaker points of Memory, but I don't blame him for attempting something which could very well be very distinct to him. One thing when I read Memory of Light is there are some great moments of unsatisfaction. The Pit of Doom is a stand out, I enjoy that RJ wrote it, but it's not fleshed out- the Tower of Ghenjei narrative rings much more true to RJ's final edit

 

However: A reading that is absolutely on point -that is not quite mentioned on this forum- is very Jungian in psychology. There is a strong case to be made that the Dark One is the Dragon. As in- the Dark One exists because Lews Therin exists. The Dark One is the voice of the tyrant which exists inside the First of the Servants 

 

 

Edited January 9, 2023 by Blackbyrd

[Aan-Alone]

On 12/12/2022 at 5:44 PM, SinisterDeath said:

the creator is a non sentient universal force that represents order and fuels the "wheel".

Either saidin & saidar, or the opposition between the two, is what powers the Wheel of Time. Not to far of a stretch, if any, to consider this a creative force and or "The Creator". However, this would imply that the all-caps voice at the beginning and end of the series is the voice of the "fuzzy-logic computer" we call the Wheel of Time. And I think this makes pretty good sense unless it contradicts Canon?

[dwn]

The fundamental problem is that we can never be sure what was intended. RJ himself dropped, mutated or retconned various elements of the story and lore to suit the shifting scope of his story. It's fun, but ultimately futile for us to speculate how the inconsistencies and oddities of the last three books fit into the pattern. I expect this is why there was far less dicussion post AMoL than with the earlier books.

 

For my part, I mostly shrug off things like Nakomi, Rand lighting his pipe, the male Aiel channelers, etc. I don't like them from a storytelling perspective--new quirks introduced right at the end often fall flat--but they also had minimal impact on anything.

 

In fact, Aviendha's second trip through the columns was anticlimactic because AMoL didn't have a proper denouement (which IMO is criminal for such a long series). I suspect it was setup for the planned outrigger novels that never happened.

 

I have more problems with Demandred's scheme with Shara, the whole Graendal/Perrin plot, and the utter lack of resolution of Fain!Mashadar. These went way beyond falling flat--they were complete face plants.

 

For contrast, the Ashendarei was a masterful use of foreshadowing and resolution. Olver sounding the Horn was another great one.

Edited January 20 by dwn

[Aan-Alone]

4 hours ago, dwn said:

the Ashendarei was a masterful use of foreshadowing and resolution.

I whole-heartedly agree. This was a BOSS move that I, for one, never suspected was anything more than a cool weapon, especially for Matrim.

 

5 hours ago, dwn said:

It's fun, but ultimately futile for us to speculate how the inconsistencies and oddities of the last three books fit into the pattern.

From my point-of-view, this speculation is what leads to a deeper personal understanding of and connection with the series. Especially on re-reads. And provides fodder to share/discuss. I guess fruit is in the eye of the beholder?

 

Hope that doesn't lead to infection tho...

 

Anyone: "Man, your eye looks awful. What happened?"

"Me: I got strawberry-and-cherry eye from too much speculation about, and re-reads of, the WoT. Have you ever read it?"

Anyone: "No. What's it about?"

Me: "I can tell you, but...are you free for the next couple hours?"

Anyone: "Is the eye-thing contagious?"

Me: "Don't worry about that. You won't even notice yours at first."

😊

[dwn]

29 minutes ago, Aan-Alone said:

From my point-of-view, this speculation is what leads to a deeper personal understanding of and connection with the series. Especially on re-reads. And provides fodder to share/discuss. I guess fruit is in the eye of the beholder?

I wholeheartedly agree for the first 11 books. The last 3 pose a problem, however, since the author change introduced a number of plot tangles and inconsistencies. No matter how much we analyze TGS, ToM and AMoL, we just can't be sure what was planned and what was invented out of necessity.

[Aan-Alone]

18 minutes ago, dwn said:

The last 3 pose a problem, however, since the author change introduced a number of plot tangles and inconsistencies.

That's the part that I tend to shrug off. 🤷‍♂️

But I'm extremely generous in this regard, and unbiased to an extent as I've never read Sanderson. I sort of make my head canon work, to my personal benefit I'm sure. I agree that we will never know, exactly, about many things in the last 3 books. Sadly. But that's ok imo. I can live with it and happily make stuff up to fill the gaps. Some of which is sometimes plausible. For me, it's the journey, not the destination. And the journey is often better when shared.

[HeavyHalfMoonBlade]

I also think it is important to realise that it is the change of author that is the main issue, not Sanderson himself. From the sounds of it, if Sanderson had finished the stories on his own we would have had a very different last three books, but the Jordan Estate did a lot of work with red pen on his manuscripts. I don't see how this would not lead to inconsistencies and unfinished plot lines. I find a lot of the last books disappointing - but in my experience, endings of epics nearly always are in some ways.

[dwn]

3 hours ago, HeavyHalfMoonBlade said:

I also think it is important to realise that it is the change of author that is the main issue, not Sanderson himself. 

That's a good way of putting it. I'm not overly fond of the other Brandon Sanderson books I've read, but I completely agree that any author would have resulted in similar issues in this case. He and team Jordan were handed an impoosible task and did the best they could under the cirucmstances. (Although I do think there should have been some more careful editing.)

My point is that we should accept (to some degree) that the final 3 books to have more irregularities than the rest, which means we can't really analyze them like we did the first 11.

Edited January 21 by dwn

[HeavyHalfMoonBlade]

I take your point, but it could also be cogently argued that the inconsistencies and other changes allow for more conjecture. 

 

Sadly all conjecture is just that now - no more turning of the Wheel to illuminate theories, no more answers from the Creator himself. Speculation has to the goal in and of itself. 

[Asthereal]

On 1/21/2024 at 12:52 AM, Aan-Alone said:

That's the part that I tend to shrug off. 🤷‍♂️

But I'm extremely generous in this regard, and unbiased to an extent as I've never read Sanderson. I sort of make my head canon work, to my personal benefit I'm sure. I agree that we will never know, exactly, about many things in the last 3 books. Sadly. But that's ok imo. I can live with it and happily make stuff up to fill the gaps. Some of which is sometimes plausible. For me, it's the journey, not the destination. And the journey is often better when shared.

 

I came in from the complete opposite direction, having read a pile of Sanderson books before I started WoT, but I feel the same way regarding plot details that got sidelined or ended up inconsistent. To me, things like Nakomi are cute little details to speculate about, but ultimately somewhat inconsequential to the story. Rand lighting his pipe is definitely a Jordan thing, as Sanderson revealed that the ending is all Jordan. But that too is just a fun little detail.

 

Bigger plot issues arise with the male Aiel channelers, but that was as far as I can tell also a Jordan idea, and whether the Demandred + Sharans thing was Sanderson or Jordan, I do feel like that was foreshadowed well enough. We've had a number of moments through the series where Shara was discussed briefly, and we've had news about the whereabouts and plans of all Forsaken except Demandred, so this is something I feel like I could have seem coming if I had taken the time to review my ideas between books. I didn't though. I flew through the series without theorycrafting in between volumes.

 

But back to the author switch: I knew Sanderson's work and methods quite well before I started WoT, and what I can tell is this: Sanderson is a big planner. He will have thoroughly gone through all the written work and all the useful notes from Jordan, and he'll have drawn up a rough plan for the ending. He will then have looked at gaps and missing arcs, and have asked Jordan's team to find references for what Jordan wanted to do there. He had almost nothing for a few characters and plotlines, but being a massive fan himself, he probably came in with a few ideas of his own already. With all that, he made a massive outline before he started writing, and when he was a way into writing the actual book, the publisher decided that it would become three volumes rather than just one, which forced Sanderson to change a number of things so each of the books would work individually as well. He distinctly warned the publisher that specifically the first one would need payoffs, as he didn't want it to become another book 10 (all setup and no payoff). So the outline got revised, things got shuffled around, and he had to rewrite some stuff, but this is how we ultimately got the three Sanderson entries.

 

I think that the books would have been a bit stronger if the publisher had forced the ending into three volumes from the start. Sanders, being the planner that he is, would have been able to plan out all three from the start, and I think that would have helped him. But to me, other than Padan Fain's ending and the level 1, 2, 3 defeat of Demandred, which I both felt were not good at all, I think over all Sanderson did a great job. In Jordan's hands the ending would have been at least 5 books, perhaps more, and probably better, but I have to say I infinitely prefer this over what's happening with A Song of Ice and Fire. 🙂