Moridin? Shaidar Haran?

[gaishain]

Two characters that I know are and will have a fairly large impact on the way things play out. Could you all explain as much as possible about these two? Moridin I have read is just another Forsaken? If that is true however why is he now favored by the DO by holding Mogehdien's (sp?) mind trap and has control over a few other forsaken. Is Moridin going to become Nae'blis? Shaidar Haran... I know that he is a myrdraal and that he is special because of his size and that he talks. Do you think that he could be the DO's puppet where the DO is controlling him or do you think he just works for the shadow all on his own? I feel like I am forgetting the details of these two characters that I think are very important. Anyone have any ideas, theories, or just want to refresh me on the details? Thanks to all who reply.

[Eben]

Two characters that I know are and will have a fairly large impact on the way things play out. Could you all explain as much as possible about these two? Moridin I have read is just another Forsaken? If that is true however why is he now favored by the DO by holding Mogehdien's (sp?) mind trap and has control over a few other forsaken. Is Moridin going to become Nae'blis? Shaidar Haran... I know that he is a myrdraal and that he is special because of his size and that he talks. Do you think that he could be the DO's puppet where the DO is controlling him or do you think he just works for the shadow all on his own? I feel like I am forgetting the details of these two characters that I think are very important. Anyone have any ideas' date=' theories, or just want to refresh me on the details? Thanks to all who reply.[/quote']

 

I think Moridn IS Nae'blis

and I think I read that Shaidar Haran IS the Dark One...or rather his hand..but other than that, I am not sure

I had to re-read all of the books, cuz when I picked up The Knife of Dreams, I had completely forgotten everything( I had read 2 or 3 other series between Crossroads of twilight and Knife of dreams) so I am only getting finished with Crossroads of twilight...again...I might be missing something

[Guest Majsju]

Moridin is Ishamael recycled, and atm Nae'blis.

 

Shadar Haran is a myrdraal somehow enhanced. The DO has made a kind of imprint on him, and put some of his powers in him. I suppose you can say that he is the DO's physical manifestation in the world, but as the DO is still imprisoned, SH's powers are still limited.

[gaishain]

If Ishamael is Moridin then what makes him above the other forsaken? What I mean is why did the DO make him Nae'blis over the others?

[Jedimuppet]

If Ishamael is Moridin then what makes him above the other forsaken? What I mean is why did the DO make him Nae'blis over the others?

 

I think most of the others have screwed up so badly, and also Ishy is the most powerful, and has been free the longest.

 

That's really just speculation, though.

J

[Jellybelly]

Also, Ishamael is the one that is almost totally obedient to the Dark One. He is not on a personal quest for power and women the way the others to a certain degree are. He fights the Dark One's fight. Remember, he was also the one who revealed the truth about the Dark One in the AoL. I believe he knows more about the Dark One's purpose and intent than the others, and identifies more closely with it, as opposed to the others, who are really only after personal power.

[Jedimuppet]

Also' date=' Ishamael is the one that is almost totally obedient to the Dark One. He is not on a personal quest for power and women the way the others to a certain degree are. He fights the Dark One's fight. Remember, he was also the one who revealed the truth about the Dark One in the AoL. I believe he knows more about the Dark One's purpose and intent than the others, and identifies more closely with it, as opposed to the others, who are really only after personal power.[/quote']

 

In certain contexts that seems right, and yet one thing has always bothered me. Was he pretending to be the DO? Why didn't that piss him off? Sometimes I wonder if people just thought he was the DO because he was the most powerful bad guy around, or maybe because the DO wanted the illusion out there that he was free, or was Ishy just that crazy?

 

*shrug*

J

[Jellybelly]

The answer might be a combination of all the aspects you mentioned. For all we know, Ishamael might even have had the Dark One's permission. In either case, we know that what Ishy did furthered the Dark One's cause, as evidenced by the Dark One's aiding him (weak aid though it was) when Rand is about to kill him in TDR.

[SinisterDeath]

Umm, just to elaborate something here... In many other books/series ect, when you have a certain g-d like avatar, they are escentially, a manifestation of themselves. However, that does not mean they are it, only that they created a lesser being, that shares powers much like there own, and agendas much like there own, but they still to a certain degree have there own free will. Often times, they believe they are the g-d they represent. Other times they oppose the g-d they represent fully.

In a way, think of it like a mini-me, who doesnt always do what you tell them to do, and sometimes turn on you. We know that shadar haren, wants to be free so to speak.

[Jedimuppet]

Umm' date=' just to elaborate something here... In many other books/series ect, when you have a certain g-d like avatar, they are escentially, a manifestation of themselves. However, that does not mean they are it, only that they created a lesser being, that shares powers much like there own, and agendas much like there own, but they still to a certain degree have there own free will. Often times, they believe they are the g-d they represent. Other times they oppose the g-d they represent fully.

In a way, think of it like a mini-me, who doesnt always do what you tell them to do, and sometimes turn on you. We know that shadar haren, wants to be free so to speak.[/quote']

 

yeah, good luck to him on that...maybe if the good guys win, they'll let him hang out...lol

J

[rd2000]

I remember some bad guy having to find a shadow in order to travel, Shadar I think. "Jak o' Shadows"??

 

I remember reading a book a long time ago, can't remember the author, about a good-guy mage that could move thru shadows, Roger Zelanzy was the author I believe(as I was really into his books at the time). I think his name was Jack in that book too. I believe our RJ might have "borrowed" the idea from that book.

[Jedimuppet]

I remember some bad guy having to find a shadow in order to travel' date=' Shadar I think. "Jak o' Shadows"??

 

I remember reading a book a long time ago, can't remember the author, about a good-guy mage that could move thru shadows, Roger Zelanzy was the author I believe(as I was really into his books at the time). I think his name was Jack in that book too. I believe our RJ might have "borrowed" the idea from that book.[/quote']

 

Are you thinking shadows of amber? That was corwin, and it was the royal family of amber that could manipulate the shadows, but they really meant reflections.

J

[Guest Majsju]

I remember some bad guy having to find a shadow in order to travel' date=' Shadar I think. "Jak o' Shadows"??

 

I remember reading a book a long time ago, can't remember the author, about a good-guy mage that could move thru shadows, Roger Zelanzy was the author I believe(as I was really into his books at the time). I think his name was Jack in that book too. I believe our RJ might have "borrowed" the idea from that book.[/quote']

 

Shadar Haran CAN use shadows to travel around, that doesn't mean he has to.

 

Jak O The Shadows is just a name for death, used in a song far older than SH, so no relation there.

[rd2000]

I remember some bad guy having to find a shadow in order to travel' date=' Shadar I think. "Jak o' Shadows"??

 

I remember reading a book a long time ago, can't remember the author, about a good-guy mage that could move thru shadows, Roger Zelanzy was the author I believe(as I was really into his books at the time). I think his name was Jack in that book too. I believe our RJ might have "borrowed" the idea from that book.[/quote']

 

Are you thinking shadows of amber? That was corwin, and it was the royal family of amber that could manipulate the shadows, but they really meant reflections.

J

 

No it wasn't any of the Amber books. It might not have been Zelanzy, It just seemed likely to me that it was. The hero of the story could teleport himself to anywhere in a shadow, if he entered from a shadow.

I was also reading a lot of Andre Norton, Tanith Lee, and Rober Heinlen at the time, so it might have been one of their books. Sorry to get off topic.

[dalic]

Also' date=' Ishamael is the one that is almost totally obedient to the Dark One. He is not on a personal quest for power and women the way the others to a certain degree are. He fights the Dark One's fight. Remember, he was also the one who revealed the truth about the Dark One in the AoL. I believe he knows more about the Dark One's purpose and intent than the others, and identifies more closely with it, as opposed to the others, who are really only after personal power.[/quote']

 

In certain contexts that seems right, and yet one thing has always bothered me. Was he pretending to be the DO? Why didn't that piss him off? Sometimes I wonder if people just thought he was the DO because he was the most powerful bad guy around, or maybe because the DO wanted the illusion out there that he was free, or was Ishy just that crazy?

 

*shrug*

J

 

The DO would not be ticked off at Ishy pretending to be him. DO doesn't care about anything but accomplishing his goals. If his little Ishy-poo was so engrossed in the DO that he felt he was the DO, who cares as long as he does his job.

 

SH means Hand of the Dark One or something like that. I don't think he is the DO's avatar but its like having a robot that does exactly what you tell it without any ego problems. Except this Robot can think and still be the definitive servant.

[Siswaiaman]

a few things...

 

Messana/Lannfear/Cynade revealed the dark one, not the Betrayer of hope

 

ALL Myrdraal can use shadows to travel, the Jak'o'shadows is the DO, not SH.

 

Ishmael is Nae'blis because he IS the closest thing to the DO, but JellyBelly, how did the DO help him in TDR?

 

And all the way from the beggining, Morridin has Moghedin's cour'souvra AND Lannfear/Cynade's too.

 

JediMuppet, he hasn't been free the longest, Balthamel and Aginor were the first to get out, or the "nearest to the surface".

 

Finally while trying to remember a response to the Gleaned Myrdraal issue, i had a brain fart. Help me out, whats the literal translation of Myrdraal again, or whats another of their names? I remember it having to do with shadow something. Either way, they are said to ride shadows anywhere, but not even they know how they do it.

[SinisterDeath]

JediMuppet, he hasn't been free the longest, Balthamel and Aginor were the first to get out, or the "nearest to the surface".

 

 

If you are reffering to ishmale.. Thats partially true..

Remember how ishmale was able to cure lewish therins insanity? That would place him outside the bore, where it was sealed, after the event. Meaning he wasnt there during its happening.

Also we have several clues that ishmale has had bouts of being free for several years during the 3,000 years they were all locked up.. say, every few houndred years he has been able to free him self to go alter events to the do's favor... there is evidence of this. I just don't feel like finding it. :P

[Siswaiaman]

lol sinister, the same argument on two threads.

 

I would disagree on Ishmael healing Lews Therin. If he was out alrdy, what stopped him from finding the seals b4 they could be spread far and wide?

[SinisterDeath]

wouldnt have mattered really, To much chaos going on for him to stop it.. Let alone break the seals.. I think he fled to the bore as a means to protect him self.... as well as to play a hand in future events..

[rd2000]

What good to find the seals if you have no way to break them?

 

Ishy was never completely sealed in the bore, he was able to influence events for the DO since the breaking.

[Guest cwestervelt]

a few things...

 

Messana/Lannfear/Cynade revealed the dark one' date=' not the Betrayer of hope

 

ALL Myrdraal can use shadows to travel, the Jak'o'shadows is the DO, not SH.

 

Ishmael is Nae'blis because he IS the closest thing to the DO, but JellyBelly, how did the DO help him in TDR?

 

And all the way from the beggining, Morridin has Moghedin's cour'souvra AND Lannfear/Cynade's too.

 

JediMuppet, he hasn't been free the longest, Balthamel and Aginor were the first to get out, or the "nearest to the surface".

 

Finally while trying to remember a response to the Gleaned Myrdraal issue, i had a brain fart. Help me out, whats the literal translation of Myrdraal again, or whats another of their names? I remember it having to do with shadow something. Either way, they are said to ride shadows anywhere, but not even they know how they do it.[/quote']

 

I believe the name you are looking for is "Shadowman". I don't know if it is ever said that Myrddraal don't know how the do it, but Agin'or, there indirect created had know clue how. I think it was even said that he tried studying them to find out, but even he was never really comfortable around them.

[Jedimuppet]

What good to find the seals if you have no way to break them?

 

Ishy was never completely sealed in the bore' date=' he was able to influence events for the DO since the breaking.[/quote']

 

exactly...didn't he lead in the trolloc wars?

J

[Guest Majsju]

a few things...

 

Messana/Lannfear/Cynade revealed the dark one' date=' not the Betrayer of hope

 

JediMuppet, he hasn't been free the longest, Balthamel and Aginor were the first to get out, or the "nearest to the surface".[/quote']

 

Lanfear and Beidomon made the Bore, as far as we know Mesaana had nothing to do with that. Especially consnidering that she was not considered good enough to be a researcher, and suggested to take up teaching instead...

 

Ishamael was released in 40 year periods. Believed to have been involved with the fall of Aridhol, advisor to Arthur Hawkwing and possibly Luthair, the one who changed the Seanchan version of the prophecy among other things.

[Shai-tan]

Could Moridin have supplied the first Adam to the Seanchan ?

[rd2000]

An Aes Sedai made the first A'dam, and promptly became the first ever Damane.