Portal Stones. Did Travelling by Portal Stone Affect Rand, Mat and Perrin?

[Lexi Eve]

I made a YT video backing up my claim that travelling via Portal Stone allowed Rand, Perrin and Mat to see alternative and past lives, and it heavily affected each of them:

 

I believe that Rand unconsciously became a baldemaster from this point on; Mat became capable of leading an army; and Perrin accepted his fate that he must help Rand as The Dragon Reborn. 

 

Please subscribe to my channel. I will be adding way more WoT and other fantasy series info in videos in the very near future!

 

This is basically my 2nd video on the channel and have no following yet. I can really use the help. 

 

I hope you guys like my idea on this topic!

 

 

[wotfan4472]

I actually like it, but only for Mat and Perrin. Not so much for Rand.

It explains Mat and Perrin's level ups, considering Lan spent more time training Rand than the others at the beginning, so the portal stone effect helps those two out. At least until their respective situations start to develop, like Mat with the Finn and his memories, and Perrin starting his very long training from Hopper. Those come much later, and as Lan himself stated, his skills are more sword focused than axe or bow and quarterstaff.

 

Rand being a blademaster is more due to Lan's training, than the portal stone effect, mostly because Lan comes from a part of the world that has been at war for 3000 years against the Shadowspawn, and is considered the top fighter of all of those warriors at the time the books take place. Many of Lan's pears even state it outright.

 

That training serves Rand much better, because his knowledge from LTT would only make him a contemporary of rivals like Sammael, Belal, or Demandred, and thus beatable, since all of them got the exact same training while taking part in a sport that featured the skills. Lan's training is far more extensive than LTT's training as a consequence.

Edited August 28, 2022 by wotfan4472

[DojoToad]

Similar comment to the last thread you started on this: I still think they were in near stasis both physically and mentally when going through the flickering of portal travel. A little went on with glimpses of alternate realties, but these were near instantaneous. I thought the portal stones showed glimpses of their own/current lives had they made different choices or had circumstances in the world changed - not past lives/ancestors.  They lost weeks (months?) during this traveling. If they were not in stasis, why did they not starve or Mat succumb to the dagger?  If they were in stasis (or near enough) how could their brains download so much.

 

Plus, much of fighting skill is still physical, coordination, skill based. A download directly into their heads might give them the cerebral ability to be weapon masters, but not necessarily to translate that knowledge to kinetic action. 
 

I may be missing your point, but I still don’t make the connection between portal stones and physical ability. 

[Lexi Eve]

@DojoToad totally respect your stance. I can only point to chapter 19 of The Dragon Reborn which does state that Mat remembers past lives in regards to the Portal Stones. Perrin is unconfirmed lime I said, but he does act weird toward Rand right after travelling which insinuates something happened to him cause he realizes and says that none of them really have any choice [in this Path they've been lead down since leaving The Two Rivers].

 

I just think it's interesting and that Robert Jordan was trying to figure out a way to play withthe idea of a multiverse as well as past life regression which is a huge part of both Yogic and Hermetic Occult Practices, which we do know heavily influenced RJ's writing of WoT. 

[DojoToad]

1 hour ago, Lexi Eve said:

@DojoToad totally respect your stance. I can only point to chapter 19 of The Dragon Reborn which does state that Mat remembers past lives in regards to the Portal Stones. Perrin is unconfirmed lime I said, but he does act weird toward Rand right after travelling which insinuates something happened to him cause he realizes and says that none of them really have any choice [in this Path they've been lead down since leaving The Two Rivers].

 

I just think it's interesting and that Robert Jordan was trying to figure out a way to play withthe idea of a multiverse as well as past life regression which is a huge part of both Yogic and Hermetic Occult Practices, which we do know heavily influenced RJ's writing of WoT. 

You may very well be correct.  Just trying to wrap my mind around the concept.  I'm going by memory now and need to do some research.  Anyone else have thoughts?

[Kalessin]

Spoiler Alert.

Quote

 Mat was huddled in a ball with his arms wrapped around his head, and Perrin had his fingers dug into his face as if he wanted to rip away whatever he had seen, or perhaps rip out the eyes that had seen it.

This is after that Portal Stone trip of a lifetime to Toman Head. Rand's seen an uncounted list of possibilities for his life; he's on one track, but he could've taken so many other ones ...

Quote

When he tried to straighten Mat, Mat jerked and stared at him, then grabbed Rand's coat with both hands. "Rand, I'd never tell anyone about - about you. I wouldn't betray you. You have to believe that!" He looked worse than ever, but Rand thought it was mostly fright.

And likewise Perrin ...

Quote

The curly-haired youth dropped his hands from his face with a sigh. Red marks scored his forehead and cheeks where his nails had dug in. His yellow eyes hid his thoughts. "We don't have many choices really, do we, Rand? Whatever happens, whatever we do, some things are almost always the same."

Ingtar learns enough:

Quote

"Rand, when Verin brought us here with the Portal Stone, I - I lived other lives. Sometimes I held the Horn, but I never sounded it. I tried to escape what I'd become, but I never did. Always there was something else required of me, always something worse than the last, until I was . . . . You were ready to give it up to save a friend. Think not of glory. Oh, Light, help me."

Perrin merely reiterates his earlier statement, after the Horn is blown and the Seanchan vanquished:

Quote

"I'm staying as well," Perrin said. There was a note of resignation, or acceptance, in his voice. "The Wheel weaves us tight in the Pattern, Rand. Who would have thought it, back in Emond's Field?"

There isn't much else on Mat, besides his shock at realizing he could betray Rand so very easily. I think the changes are in their outlooks, rather than metaphysical changes in skills they can access.

 

FWVVLIW

Edited August 29, 2022 by Kalessin
cleaning lines

[bringbackthomsmoustache]

On 8/28/2022 at 3:46 PM, wotfan4472 said:

That training serves Rand much better, because his knowledge from LTT would only make him a contemporary of rivals like Sammael, Belal, or Demandred, and thus beatable, since all of them got the exact same training while taking part in a sport that featured the skills. Lan's training is far more extensive than LTT's training as a consequence.

Except that they have had well over a hundred years of training and practice and are still in the prime of life while Lan, although trained from birth, has had only 40-50 years training and is past his physical peak.  As we see there is no weakness in Be'lal or Demandred's sword-fighting technique or athletic ability, the difference is in their attitude which still treats it as a game with rules ("we took that tired old game men call swords and learned to kill with it") while Lan has always known that what sometimes matters is the death of your enemy regardless of the cost to yourself ("he never understood - the time to surrender is after you are dead").

[wotfan4472]

It does not matter with the length of time training.

 

In the Age Of Legends, it is sportsmanship, and nothing can change that mindset. If it was as equal as Lan's training, Demandred would have killed Lan in his duel, because he would not have been fooled by Lan. He would have duelled as a soldier on the battlefield.

 

That entire duel, in fact all his duels during the Last Battle all show that Demandred was duelling like he was in a sporting arena competing, just as LTT, Sammael and Be'lal would have, while Lan was fighting for survival as a soldier on the battlefield. 

 

I suspect that what Demandred displayed by his fighting is a display of Collapse Era duelling, where sports competitions like sword fighting was more and more vicious due to the Bore. Remember, Sammael was mentioned as a world champion; he may have gained that title in that period. That sportsman mindset is what killed Demandred.

Because it never occurred to him that Lan intended to kill him, not win the duel.

[CaddySedai]

Honestly I feel that the opposite is true. That in the AoL pre-breaking era there was peace so swordplay evolved into a sort of dance. A show. And people like LTT and Demmy, while they were leagues more skilled than others who may battle - being as strong in the power as they were - it is unlikely they would have used swordplay except to show off - since you could balefire entire armies out of existence. So they had no reason to grow, to incorporate more “actual battle” moves designed to break through a defense rather than flow and ebb in a pattern. 

 

Lan however being a borderlander basically lived on the cusp of death his whole life. That while the naming convention of sword forms still implies the dance exists the intent changed. No longer was it to show ones skill and defeat your foe by making one move slightly better, slightly faster, slightly better angled - now the forms were intended to directly exploit holes and to kill the opponent and make sure you aren’t dead after the win. 

 

So his training not only would have given Rand variations of moves his contemporaries would not know, but also a different mindset on the battle itself and that to me is the bigger difference. Demandred and ilk desire to show off as they battle, where Rand just wants to live and make them dead, how he looks or what people think of his skill is not a factor. 

 

 

[DojoToad]

1 hour ago, CaddySedai said:

Honestly I feel that the opposite is true. That in the AoL pre-breaking era there was peace so swordplay evolved into a sort of dance. A show. And people like LTT and Demmy, while they were leagues more skilled than others who may battle - being as strong in the power as they were - it is unlikely they would have used swordplay except to show off - since you could balefire entire armies out of existence. So they had no reason to grow, to incorporate more “actual battle” moves designed to break through a defense rather than flow and ebb in a pattern. 

 

Lan however being a borderlander basically lived on the cusp of death his whole life. That while the naming convention of sword forms still implies the dance exists the intent changed. No longer was it to show ones skill and defeat your foe by making one move slightly better, slightly faster, slightly better angled - now the forms were intended to directly exploit holes and to kill the opponent and make sure you aren’t dead after the win. 

 

So his training not only would have given Rand variations of moves his contemporaries would not know, but also a different mindset on the battle itself and that to me is the bigger difference. Demandred and ilk desire to show off as they battle, where Rand just wants to live and make them dead, how he looks or what people think of his skill is not a factor. 

 

 

I don't know.  Japanese and European sword forms are still practiced today in a point-based system - because the practitioners aren't trying to kill each other.  I think this takes more nuance than a battle field.  It is easy to see who wins in battle - one person down, the other not.  Whereas in modern sparring, injuries are avoided which I think brings your point more into play about exploiting holes.  A rattan sword, wooden bokken, or blunted fencing swords must be handled with more skill to show mastery and score points - because while strikes may sting or leave bruises they don't incapacitate as a battlefield would.  The win would come with more finesse (read: skill) than someone that could chop away with a live blade.  The point fighter would still need to know how to counter a battlefield fighter.

 

Just thinking out loud - not an actual skilled sword fighter...

[CaddySedai]

35 minutes ago, DojoToad said:

I don't know.  Japanese and European sword forms are still practiced today in a point-based system - because the practitioners aren't trying to kill each other.  I think this takes more nuance than a battle field.  It is easy to see who wins in battle - one person down, the other not.  Whereas in modern sparring, injuries are avoided which I think brings your point more into play about exploiting holes.  A rattan sword, wooden bokken, or blunted fencing swords must be handled with more skill to show mastery and score points - because while strikes may sting or leave bruises they don't incapacitate as a battlefield would.  The win would come with more finesse (read: skill) than someone that could chop away with a live blade.  The point fighter would still need to know how to counter a battlefield fighter.

 

Just thinking out loud - not an actual skilled sword fighter...

 

That is my point though. Demmy would be approaching battles from a pride and also technical version of battle. 

 

Rand as LTT would know the technical side of things but would also know the desperation side and would do things that are unexpected. lol 

[DojoToad]

42 minutes ago, CaddySedai said:

 

That is my point though. Demmy would be approaching battles from a pride and also technical version of battle. 

 

Rand as LTT would know the technical side of things but would also know the desperation side and would do things that are unexpected. lol 

Ok.  I was confused.  I thought you were talking about Demandred's duels at the last battle - Gawyn, Galhad, Lan - all three of which had battlefield sword experience.  Versus Rand who never dueled Demandred.

[Blackbyrd]

On 8/30/2022 at 8:45 AM, CaddySedai said:

Honestly I feel that the opposite is true. That in the AoL pre-breaking era there was peace so swordplay evolved into a sort of dance. A show. And people like LTT and Demmy, while they were leagues more skilled than others who may battle - being as strong in the power as they were - it is unlikely they would have used swordplay except to show off - since you could balefire entire armies out of existence. So they had no reason to grow, to incorporate more “actual battle” moves designed to break through a defense rather than flow and ebb in a pattern. 

 

Lan however being a borderlander basically lived on the cusp of death his whole life. That while the naming convention of sword forms still implies the dance exists the intent changed. No longer was it to show ones skill and defeat your foe by making one move slightly better, slightly faster, slightly better angled - now the forms were intended to directly exploit holes and to kill the opponent and make sure you aren’t dead after the win. 

 

So his training not only would have given Rand variations of moves his contemporaries would not know, but also a different mindset on the battle itself and that to me is the bigger difference. Demandred and ilk desire to show off as they battle, where Rand just wants to live and make them dead, how he looks or what people think of his skill is not a factor. 

 

 

 

 

One of the the themes RJ definitely repeated was the Forsaken as mostly Paper Tigers. This is one of many examples that showed in these matters the Forsaken had a resolve that could be likened to cardboard while 3000 years of not so great times had resulted in a more steely resolve for our protagonists.