[TV Show] Prophecies of the Dragon

[SinisterDeath]

2 minutes ago, Andra said:

So you're saying that Aes Sedai actually ARE familiar with the prophecies.  ?

Even if they are... 

 

On 5/9/2022 at 9:22 AM, SinisterDeath said:

If its 600 pages of collected "prophecies of the dragon", then there's potentially a lot of junk prophecies for someone to decipher through... or to put it another way... there's a lot of prophecies to cherry pick to match current events..

 

Besides, there's people that claim to have been reading WoT since the 80s, that Perrin is a Red head (That the book cover are 100% cannon), Tuon is white, various events that never happened in the books, indeed did happen, because they're familiar with the books.
 

[Andra]

2 hours ago, VooDooNut said:

Yeah, but, again, based on that one scene, I didn't get the impression Rand even recognized the title. It appeared to me as if he just read the title aloud (for himself and the audience) without being familiar with the book or its contents.

 

I don't have a good explanation for the book showing up in an inn, but that aspect/plot hole doesn't bother me.

I'm sorry that I let this point get sidetracked by what Rand may or may not have recognized.  That was never the primary issue.  It doesn't matter what he personally knew.

 

In the books, the Karaethon Cycle is famous, but copies are rare.  They mostly only exist in the large Palace libraries in capital cities, or in the White Tower.  Yet most people are familiar with at least some of its contents.  And Rand knew what Thom was talking about when he mentioned the title.  But hadn't read it, because Nynaeve would have punished anyone she found with a copy.

 

In the show, most people are apparently completely ignorant of the book's contents, yet it's common enough that a copy is found in one of the cheapest inns in the city.

Edited May 11, 2022 by Andra

[SinisterDeath]

26 minutes ago, Andra said:

I'm sorry that I let this point get sidetracked by what Rand may or may not have recognized.  That was never the primary issue.  It doesn't matter what he personally knew.

 

In the books, the Karaethon Cycle is famous, but copies are rare.  They mostly only exist in the large Palace libraries in capital cities, or in the White Tower.  Yet most people are familiar with at least some of its contents.  And Rand knew what Thom was talking about when he mentioned the title.  But hadn't read it, because Nynaeve would have punished anyone she found with a copy.

 

In the show, most people are apparently completely ignorant of the book's contents, yet it's common enough that a copy is found in one of the cheapest inns in the city.

  

On 5/9/2022 at 1:33 PM, Andra said:

Making fans excited to see something than giving them something completely unrelated isn't exactly "service."

It's more like "fan abuse."

 

So what else is new?

Still not seeing how what we got is "fan abuse". ? 

[Andra]

35 minutes ago, SinisterDeath said:

  

Still not seeing how what we got is "fan abuse". ? 

Because we don't know yet what Rafe is going to claim is contained in the book in question.

 

Once again, it's not the appearance of the book that's a question - it's having the book turn out to be something other than it's supposed to be.

 

I did not say that the scene we got was "fan abuse."  I was referring to what he may do with it.  Go back over my posts.  I don't have a problem with the existence of the Karaethon Cycle at the inn.  I have a problem with the claim that, despite it being common enough to show up at an inn, no one is familiar with its contents.  Which is a substantial, and bizarre, contradiction.

 

And if he deals with that contradiction by changing what the book is about, THAT would qualify as "fan abuse."

[WhiteVeils]

There's no such thing as fan abuse. Just you, being unhappy with a gift you received because it didn't match what you wanted to get.

[DojoToad]

1 hour ago, WhiteVeils said:

There's no such thing as fan abuse. Just you, being unhappy with a gift you received because it didn't match what you wanted to get.

I don't get the whole 'fan abuse' thing.

 

But I also don't consider the show a gift.  It is a show that I do not like, so I no longer watch it (yes, because it didn't come anywhere near what I wanted - expectations and all...)  Even had I loved it, I wouldn't consider it a gift.  It is media that I paid to view.

 

But I still like talking about it - because I'm still hoping it will improve.  And even if it doesn't and I never watch another episode, the conversations here are still stimulating and get me looking at the books in different ways too.

Edited May 12, 2022 by DojoToad

[Andra]

4 hours ago, WhiteVeils said:

There's no such thing as fan abuse. Just you, being unhappy with a gift you received because it didn't match what you wanted to get.

Jesus, it was a joke.

I know the term doesn't actually exist, which is why I put it in quotes.

Edited May 12, 2022 by Andra

[SinisterDeath]

1 hour ago, Andra said:

Jesus, it was a joke.

I know the term doesn't actually exist, which is why I put it in quotes.

Isn't it abundantly obvious by now, that text is a horrible format for conveying sarcasm/joke on forums/text chat?

 

There's a reason a simple /s at the end of a sentence, or even an emoji can help better convey when someone isn't being deadly serious. ? 

[expat]

Quote

 I have a problem with the claim that, despite it being common enough to show up at an inn, no one is familiar with its contents.  Which is a substantial, and bizarre, contradiction.

I'm not sure why you think this is a contradiction.  Historically, only about 40-45% of the people could read during the supposed timeframe covered in WOT (~1700).  The subject was somewhat taboo, so would not have been general conversation between readers and non-readers.  There was no mass communication, so any knowledge about it would spread person-to-person.  Finally, it was a book of prophecy written to obscure, so not something a normal person would read.  

 

I would compare it to Nostradamus.  While there have been numerous TV shows and books about him in a world of mass communication, does the normal person know anything but the 5-10 quatrains and their supposed interpretation used by advocates to pronounce him a great prophet?   I have (had?) a book listing all his 500+ quatrains, but I never could force myself to read more than 50 or so.

 

Bottom line, just like with Nostradamus, many people might recognize the fact of supposed prophecy without any clue about the actual details contained in their writings.  Given that the inn was in TV and had a reasonable sized library, it was likely to be fairly high class with similar cliental, so not shocking that they had a copy.

[Andra]

On 5/13/2022 at 7:07 PM, expat said:

I'm not sure why you think this is a contradiction.  Historically, only about 40-45% of the people could read during the supposed timeframe covered in WOT (~1700).  The subject was somewhat taboo, so would not have been general conversation between readers and non-readers.  There was no mass communication, so any knowledge about it would spread person-to-person.  Finally, it was a book of prophecy written to obscure, so not something a normal person would read.  

 

I would compare it to Nostradamus.  While there have been numerous TV shows and books about him in a world of mass communication, does the normal person know anything but the 5-10 quatrains and their supposed interpretation used by advocates to pronounce him a great prophet?   I have (had?) a book listing all his 500+ quatrains, but I never could force myself to read more than 50 or so.

 

Bottom line, just like with Nostradamus, many people might recognize the fact of supposed prophecy without any clue about the actual details contained in their writings.  Given that the inn was in TV and had a reasonable sized library, it was likely to be fairly high class with similar cliental, so not shocking that they had a copy.

All of those things you listed would have made it pretty much the LAST thing you would find in a cheap inn.

I'm sorry you completely missed the point of the comment you were replying to.

 

In the books, the Karaethon Cycle was rare, and found pretty much only in what in our world we would call "academic" libraries.  But it was still famous, and most people knew at least some of what was in it.  The show seems to be saying that almost no one knows anything about it.

In the books (in keeping with the real world), inns only had texts that were well-known, and popular.  An expensive inn (like "The Queen's Blessing" in Caemlyn in the books) might have a more extensive selection.  A cheap inn (like "The Light's Blessing" in Tar Valon in the show) wouldn't.

 

For it to appear there meant it was widely known.

 

Claiming no one was familiar with its contents is therefore a contradiction.  And a pretty big one.

Edited May 15, 2022 by Andra

[Nik]

So in summary, your issue is that the inn was too cheap to have a copy of the Karatheon Cycle in its library? I guess they could have had Rand go somewhere else to come across it by happenstance but that seems unnecessarily convoluted.

 

I'm also not convinced the inn was all that cheap since an Ogier was staying there. I mean are there even cheap inns in Tar Valon?

Edited May 15, 2022 by Nik

[SinisterDeath]

I seem to recall Rand making a comment in the Queen's Blessing (in the book), that he'd never seen so many books before, and he though Egwene's dad was loaded because he had like 3 books.

This isn't evidence that books are "rare" and extremely expensive everywhere... Just that they didn't exist like that in the Two Rivers. In Caemlyn/Tar Valon? Books are probably far... far more common and cheap then the Two Rivers...

[Andra]

19 hours ago, Nik said:

So in summary, your issue is that the inn was too cheap to have a copy of the Karatheon Cycle in its library? I guess they could have had Rand go somewhere else to come across it by happenstance but that seems unnecessarily convoluted.

 

I'm also not convinced the inn was all that cheap since an Ogier was staying there. I mean are there even cheap inns in Tar Valon?

No.

My issue was not that the inn had a copy of the book.

My issue is with the contradictory claim that it's common enough to appear there but NO ONE KNOWS WHAT'S IN IT.

 

As far as the quality of the inn - we are told in the show that it's the only place Rand and Mat could afford.  Even though it's many times more expensive than the "Winespring back at home."

No, the cheapest inn in town isn't necessarily cheap compared to any other city.  It just means it's the cheapest one in town.

 

And ogier aren't particularly wealthy, so that wouldn't particularly mean anything.

[Andra]

17 hours ago, SinisterDeath said:

I seem to recall Rand making a comment in the Queen's Blessing (in the book), that he'd never seen so many books before, and he though Egwene's dad was loaded because he had like 3 books.

This isn't evidence that books are "rare" and extremely expensive everywhere... Just that they didn't exist like that in the Two Rivers. In Caemlyn/Tar Valon? Books are probably far... far more common and cheap then the Two Rivers...

Yes, Basel Gill was an avid reader himself, and stocked his library much more than other innkeepers did.  He even stated that the books were mostly for his own enjoyment.

 

The Queen's Blessing was very much the exception, not the rule.

 

But I don't believe I said anything about books in general being rare or expensive in the show.  I didn't bring up how they are treated in the books, because it doesn't matter.  I said this particular one was rare in the books.

 

If this book is common in the world of the show, it is nonsensical to claim that no one is familiar with its contents in the world of the show.

[Nik]

Who said that nobody knows what's in the Karatheon cycle?

 

I also don't recall the show saying it was the only inn they could afford, but I could very well be misremembering. Either way, that looked like quite an extensive library from the glimpses we got, and it seemed good enough for Loial, so I don't find it all that surprising that they would have an extensive collection of books including some that might be deemed more obscure, or that people have heard about but few have sat down to read because it's not exactly light or fun.

 

Basically, I don't understand why this is such an issue for what is essentially a throwaway scene for the benefit of book fans. I think we're overthinking it unnecessarily.

Edited May 16, 2022 by Nik

[SinisterDeath]

5 hours ago, Andra said:

If this book is common in the world of the show, it is nonsensical to claim that no one is familiar with its contents in the world of the show.

Where did the show claim everyone was familiar with it's contents?

Where did the show claim the book was common?

 

[wotfan4472]

It goes to the fact that if I was getting information along my journey that I was the Dragon Reborn, and I saw that book and realised it was about prophecies foretelling what I would do, I would have taken it from the shelf, and read the entire thing the very moment I saw it.

 

I mean, the very first prophecy would have confirmed what my father would have told me in his fever dream.

 

I also would have sat down with Loial, Logain entering Tar Valon, or not, to ask him about what he knows of the prophecies.

Edited May 16, 2022 by wotfan4472

[SinisterDeath]

36 minutes ago, wotfan4472 said:

It goes to the fact that if I was getting information along my journey that I was the Dragon Reborn, and I saw that book and realised it was about prophecies foretelling what I would do, I would have taken it from the shelf, and read the entire thing the very moment I saw it.
 

I mean, the very first prophecy would have confirmed what my father would have told me in his fever dream.

 

I also would have sat down with Loial, Logain entering Tar Valon, or not, to ask him about what he knows of the prophecies.

True to his Character, Rand is an Idiot. ? 

[WhiteVeils]

8 minutes ago, SinisterDeath said:

True to his Character, Rand is an Idiot. ? 

Well, it's not like prophecy interpretation is something that your average sheepherder learns. He may not even know what the Stone of Tear is, let alone know it has a sword in it. And that's the obvious one.

 

 

[SinisterDeath]

21 minutes ago, WhiteVeils said:

Well, it's not like prophecy interpretation is something that your average sheepherder learns. He may not even know what the Stone of Tear is, let alone know it has a sword in it. And that's the obvious one.

 

 

He probably thinks it's a sword in a tear shaped stone. The wool headed sheep herder that he is!

[expat]

Quote

My issue is with the contradictory claim that it's common enough to appear there but NO ONE KNOWS WHAT'S IN IT.

Hence my reference to Nostradamus.  How many people KNOW WHAT'S IN IT [his 942 quatrains], even though there have been numerous books and TV shows about his prophecies?  Typing Nostradamus into Google gives tens of thousands of hits and complete translations of his work, but outside the relatively tiny group of Nostradamus fanatics and their after the fact attempts to show that his prophecies are true, how well known are his actual prophecies?  Does the average person know more than some people attempt to link his quatrain dealing with Hister and war as meaning WWII? Does anyone actually use his work as a roadmap to future activities?

 

If you don't like Nostradamus, how about Edgar Cayce or Baba Vanga?  Honestly, how well do you know their actual prophecies - and you are much more learned than a country bumpkin like Rand at this point in the series.  Personally, I had a book with Nostradamus's complete collection, but probably only read maybe 400 quatrains total after several attempts to read it. I remember a couple of the most well-known ones because of the weak attempts by apologist to show he was a true prophet.  I knew of Cayce and Vanga, but never read their work or have any knowledge of their predictions.

 

So no, I don't see it as contradictory that a book of prophecy maybe well-known and available, yet few people KNOWS WHAT'S IN IT.  I gave three examples from the real world, even though we live in a era of mass communications where significant number of books and TV programs have been devoted to these supposed prophets and their predictions and complete works are available on the internet.

[Andra]

10 hours ago, Nik said:

Who said that nobody knows what's in the Karatheon cycle?

 

I also don't recall the show saying it was the only inn they could afford, but I could very well be misremembering. Either way, that looked like quite an extensive library from the glimpses we got, and it seemed good enough for Loial, so I don't find it all that surprising that they would have an extensive collection of books including some that might be deemed more obscure, or that people have heard about but few have sat down to read because it's not exactly light or fun.

 

Basically, I don't understand why this is such an issue for what is essentially a throwaway scene for the benefit of book fans. I think we're overthinking it unnecessarily.

Go back and look at the beginning of this thread.

[Andra]

9 hours ago, SinisterDeath said:

Where did the show claim everyone was familiar with it's contents?

Where did the show claim the book was common?

 

I didn't say everyone was familiar with its contents.  I said that if it was common enough to show up in the library of an inn (in the books, it isn't) it would be nonsensical to claim no one was familiar with its contents.

[Andra]

28 minutes ago, expat said:

Hence my reference to Nostradamus.  How many people KNOW WHAT'S IN IT [his 942 quatrains], even though there have been numerous books and TV shows about his prophecies?  Typing Nostradamus into Google gives tens of thousands of hits and complete translations of his work, but outside the relatively tiny group of Nostradamus fanatics and their after the fact attempts to show that his prophecies are true, how well known are his actual prophecies?  Does the average person know more than some people attempt to link his quatrain dealing with Hister and war as meaning WWII? Does anyone actually use his work as a roadmap to future activities?

 

If you don't like Nostradamus, how about Edgar Cayce or Baba Vanga?  Honestly, how well do you know their actual prophecies - and you are much more learned than a country bumpkin like Rand at this point in the series.  Personally, I had a book with Nostradamus's complete collection, but probably only read maybe 400 quatrains total after several attempts to read it. I remember a couple of the most well-known ones because of the weak attempts by apologist to show he was a true prophet.  I knew of Cayce and Vanga, but never read their work or have any knowledge of their predictions.

 

So no, I don't see it as contradictory that a book of prophecy maybe well-known and available, yet few people KNOWS WHAT'S IN IT.  I gave three examples from the real world, even though we live in a era of mass communications where significant number of books and TV programs have been devoted to these supposed prophets and their predictions and complete works are available on the internet.

Nostradamus, Cayce et al. aren't common enough to be found in random inns.

 

The situation you are describing (where lots of people may have heard of their prophecies and even know a few, but haven't actually read them) is precisely how the books put it.  The show seems to be saying that almost no one knows anything about them.  And the few who do (like Moiraine) doubt what they've heard.

 

This is nothing like in the books.

[Andra]

9 hours ago, WhiteVeils said:

Well, it's not like prophecy interpretation is something that your average sheepherder learns. He may not even know what the Stone of Tear is, let alone know it has a sword in it. And that's the obvious one.

 

 

And yet, in the books even someone as uneducated about the world as a Two Rivers sheepherder knew exactly what and where the Stone of Tear was, and that it was featured prominently in the Prophecies.