Lan and the Warder Bond (AMOL Spoiler)

[Alannasaurus]

If Moiraine didn't die when the door ter'angreal was broke, how come Lan went through the death rage and the warder bond was broken?

[DojoToad]

2 hours ago, Alannasaurus said:

If Moiraine didn't die when the door ter'angreal was broke, how come Lan went through the death rage and the warder bond was broken?

I never did figure this one out.  She went through one of the doors in Tear and the bond was not broken.  She did not lose the ability to channel though she was depleted.  She did not have the protection of the 'agreement' going through the second time - though I'm not sure that would have done it.

 

The only thing I can think is that Moiraine deliberately severed the link to herself to free Lan.  But if that were the case then why did feel the need to seek out Myrelle?  So the link to Moiraine was severed but the bond was not broken.  Did he go through the 'true' Warder rage, or a muted version, or something else entirely - he was definitely driven to seek her (Myrelle) out.

[Andra]

17 hours ago, DojoToad said:

I never did figure this one out.  She went through one of the doors in Tear and the bond was not broken.  She did not lose the ability to channel though she was depleted.  She did not have the protection of the 'agreement' going through the second time - though I'm not sure that would have done it.

 

The only thing I can think is that Moiraine deliberately severed the link to herself to free Lan.  But if that were the case then why did feel the need to seek out Myrelle?  So the link to Moiraine was severed but the bond was not broken.  Did he go through the 'true' Warder rage, or a muted version, or something else entirely - he was definitely driven to seek her (Myrelle) out.

The way I figured it went something like this:

 

1: We know that she made arrangements to pass the bond to Myrelle long ahead of time.  Possibly even before starting for the Two Rivers in the first place.  This passing of the bond would have had to be something that triggered automatically, but could also have been something she could do intentionally even at a distance.

2: Because the bond was passed, Lan never went through the actual Warder berserker madness experience.

3: If she passed the bond intentionally, it wouldn't matter if she died or something else happened.  The bond was still passed.  And remember, she had seen what would happen to her inside the ter'angreal in Rhuidean, so she knew she would be out of circulation for a long time, while experiencing things she wouldn't want Lan to feel.

4: Going through the doorframe as she did meant she actually left the world, and lost any connection to it.  Which may have been sufficient in itself to sever the bond.  We don't know, because we have no other examples of an Aes Sedai and her Warder being in separate worlds.  It didn't happen when she went through its cousin in Tear because that door remained intact, so her connection to the world also remained intact.

[Stedding Tofu]

On 5/10/2022 at 4:59 AM, Alannasaurus said:

If Moiraine didn't die when the door ter'angreal was broke, how come Lan went through the death rage and the warder bond was broken?

 

I think it was misdirection by RJ.  He wanted us to believe Moiraine was dead until he was ready for her to return - if Mat performed a heroic sacrifice (the type of thing he spends the entire series calling people fools for doing).

 

So we have Min saying that this was the only one of her visions ever to be wrong and in her internal voice reflecting that Rand will fail without Moiraine.  Subtle hints that it's easy to ignore or discount (I mean why can't Min be wrong or misinterpret something?).

 

And then we have Lan flat out tell Rand that he can't feel the bond anymore, that Moiraine is gone and that the bond has transferred to Myrelle.  We're meant to think she's dead so Lan has to believe it.  And that means the bond has to transfer to Myrelle.

 

What I don't understand is how the bond did break.  I thought it was a distance thing as Moiraine was on another world but when she came back the bond didn't reactivate.  I was quite looking forward to Nynaeve realising she had to share Lan with Moiraine until she released him ?

[VooDooNut]

On 5/11/2022 at 12:25 AM, Andra said:

The way I figured it went something like this:

 

1: We know that she made arrangements to pass the bond to Myrelle long ahead of time.  Possibly even before starting for the Two Rivers in the first place.  This passing of the bond would have had to be something that triggered automatically, but could also have been something she could do intentionally even at a distance.

2: Because the bond was passed, Lan never went through the actual Warder berserker madness experience.

3: If she passed the bond intentionally, it wouldn't matter if she died or something else happened.  The bond was still passed.  And remember, she had seen what would happen to her inside the ter'angreal in Rhuidean, so she knew she would be out of circulation for a long time, while experiencing things she wouldn't want Lan to feel.

4: Going through the doorframe as she did meant she actually left the world, and lost any connection to it.  Which may have been sufficient in itself to sever the bond.  We don't know, because we have no other examples of an Aes Sedai and her Warder being in separate worlds.  It didn't happen when she went through its cousin in Tear because that door remained intact, so her connection to the world also remained intact.

I agree with this. The only addition I'll add is that I believe Moiraine intentionally transferred the bond (or triggered the planned transfer) at the moment right before she goes through the doorway. In this way, I don't believe the condition of the door had any effect on triggering the bond transfer.

 

So yes, no Lan madness because the bond was never broken, only passed.

 

The question I have is, if this works so well, why the heck don't more Aes Sedai have the planned bond transfer setup in place on the off-chance they have a moment (before their death) to transfer the bond. It would save a lot of warders' lives.

 

Edit: It actually doesn't matter if Moiraine triggered the transfer before, during, or in the moment after she goes through  the door. My point is she consciously triggered it.

Edited May 12, 2022 by VooDooNut
clarification

[Andra]

19 minutes ago, VooDooNut said:

I agree with this. The only addition I'll add is that I believe Moiraine intentionally transferred the bond (or triggered the planned transfer) at the moment right before she goes through the doorway. In this way, I don't believe the condition of the door had any effect on triggering the bond transfer.

 

So yes, no Lan madness because the bond was never broken, only passed.

 

The question I have is, if this works so well, why the heck don't more Aes Sedai have the planned bond transfer setup in place on the off-chance they have a moment (before their death) to transfer the bond. It would save a lot of warders' lives.

 

Edit: It actually doesn't matter if Moiraine triggered the transfer before, during, or in the moment after she goes through  the door. My point is she consciously triggered it.

I suspect the reason it doesn't happen more frequently can be explained by the responses of pretty much everyone who hears about it - including Lan himself.

Just the possibility that word might get out is enough to make Myrelle and Nisao agree to an oath of fealty to Egwene.

 

Supposedly, in earlier times when both Aes Sedai and Warders had shorter life expectancies, Warders were routinely bonded without their consent.  At that time, this might have been more acceptable.  But at this time in the books, it is viewed as tantamount to rape.

[SinisterDeath]

On 5/10/2022 at 7:25 PM, Andra said:

3: If she passed the bond intentionally, it wouldn't matter if she died or something else happened.  The bond was still passed.  And remember, she had seen what would happen to her inside the ter'angreal in Rhuidean, so she knew she would be out of circulation for a long time, while experiencing things she wouldn't want Lan to feel.

4: Going through the doorframe as she did meant she actually left the world, and lost any connection to it.  Which may have been sufficient in itself to sever the bond.  We don't know, because we have no other examples of an Aes Sedai and her Warder being in separate worlds.  It didn't happen when she went through its cousin in Tear because that door remained intact, so her connection to the world also remained intact.

I believe these two are the most accurate answer for what happened.

The doorframe melting, "cut" any connection to reality, thereby triggering the bond to be passed (or she purposely passed it before leaping into the door).

[bringbackthomsmoustache]

The simplest explanation is that Moiraine deliberately severed the bond in a way that made it appear she had died (so that Lan would be forced to go to Myrelle and think her dead). 

 

We know from her letter to Thom (and Aes Sedai cannot lie in writing any more than they can verbally) that she had visions from the Ring Terangreal which convinced her that any attempt at rescue other than by Thom, Mat and a third person she had never met would fail.  If Lan still had the bond and knew she was alive and in pain he would have gone straight to the doorway in Tear and attempted a rescue, failed and died in the attempt.  Even worse Rand (due to his guilt over having a woman sacrifice herself for him) might join in an attempt and be lost.  They both had to be convinced of her death to prevent this. 

[DojoToad]

7 minutes ago, bringbackthomsmoustache said:

The simplest explanation is that Moiraine deliberately severed the bond in a way that made it appear she had died (so that Lan would be forced to go to Myrelle and think her dead). 

 

We know from her letter to Thom (and Aes Sedai cannot lie in writing any more than they can verbally) that she had visions from the Ring Terangreal which convinced her that any attempt at rescue other than by Thom, Mat and a third person she had never met would fail.  If Lan still had the bond and knew she was alive and in pain he would have gone straight to the doorway in Tear and attempted a rescue, failed and died in the attempt.  Even worse Rand (due to his guilt over having a woman sacrifice herself for him) might join in an attempt and be lost.  They both had to be convinced of her death to prevent this. 

If she severed the bond then why would Lan be driven to seek out Myrelle?  The bond was passed.

[Andra]

2 hours ago, bringbackthomsmoustache said:

The simplest explanation is that Moiraine deliberately severed the bond in a way that made it appear she had died (so that Lan would be forced to go to Myrelle and think her dead). 

1 hour ago, DojoToad said:

If she severed the bond then why would Lan be driven to seek out Myrelle?  The bond was passed.

 

And an intentional release of the bond - even if it isn't then passed to another - would prevent the berserker rage from happening.

 

In tGH, Moiraine tells Lan she made these arrangements ahead of time.  She arranged to pass his bond, rather than simply release him.  Not to save him from the suicidal madness, but to prevent him from wasting his talents on his private war against the Shadow.

A private war he was engaged in when they met, and which he gave up to become her Warder.

 

But yes, she did all of this in such a way as to make everyone - not just Lan - believe she had died.  And it was intentional.  She didn't want anyone trying to rescue her until Thom and Mat did.  Not Lan, not Rand, not the Supergirls.  Not anyone.

 

[bringbackthomsmoustache]

22 hours ago, Andra said:

In tGH, Moiraine tells Lan she made these arrangements ahead of time.  She arranged to pass his bond, rather than simply release him.  Not to save him from the suicidal madness, but to prevent him from wasting his talents on his private war against the Shadow.

I think it is better to consider that she did not arrange to pass the bond - she stated to Lan that she had altered the bond so that if it broke (at the time she assumed this would be on her death) it would then automatically pass to Myrelle (and apparently also kick in the near compulsion of the bond requiring him to go to Myrelle at once) - passing the bond (in a normal way) was what happened when Myrelle later passed the bond to Nynaeve which did not cause the trauma of a broken bond.  

 

When Lan arrives at Myrelle it is clearly stated that he was in the death seeking state following a broken bond - he was just too skilled to have been killed by any of the bandits etc he fought while going to Myrelle.

[Andra]

1 hour ago, bringbackthomsmoustache said:

I think it is better to consider that she did not arrange to pass the bond - she stated to Lan that she had altered the bond so that if it broke (at the time she assumed this would be on her death) it would then automatically pass to Myrelle (and apparently also kick in the near compulsion of the bond requiring him to go to Myrelle at once) - passing the bond (in a normal way) was what happened when Myrelle later passed the bond to Nynaeve which did not cause the trauma of a broken bond.  

 

When Lan arrives at Myrelle it is clearly stated that he was in the death seeking state following a broken bond - he was just too skilled to have been killed by any of the bandits etc he fought while going to Myrelle.

That's not actually what she said.

This the exchange as it appears in the book (tGH, ch22 "Watchers"):

For the hundredth time -- or so it seemed to her -- she considered the words to use.  "Before we left Tar Valon I made arrangements, should anything happen to me, for your bond to pass to another."  He stared at her, silent.  "When you feel my death, you will find yourself compelled to seek her out immediately.  I do not want you to be surprised by it."

 

"Compelled," he breathed softly, angrily.  "Never once have you used my bond to compel me.  I thought you more than disapproved of that."

 

She doesn't say she altered the bond, she says she arranged ahead of time to pass it to another (identified a few lines later as Myrelle) who would then pass it again to someone else (never identified here).  At the time, she certainly expects the "anything" that would happen to her to be her death.  But there's no reason to believe she couldn't trigger the passing intentionally, since the arrangements had already been made.

 

Also, he doesn't act the way he does getting to Myrelle because of the trauma of a broken bond.  He does so because the arrangements Moiraine made included compulsion through the bond.  He literally HAD TO go to her.  It wasn't "near compulsion," it was fully that.

 

The changes that Egwene sees in him once she uncovers everything aren't because of that trauma.  They are because of emotional responses any normal human would have had to the events.  He wanted to help Rand after the events at the docks, but was compelled to leave immediately.  He wanted to mourn, but wasn't allowed to.  He was angry that he had no choice in either matter.

 

He wasn't traumatized by a broken bond because the bond was never broken.  Not saying that what he did experience wasn't emotionally traumatic, but it wasn't that.

[Andra]

What was done with Lan's bond was interesting, but not the most interesting of the various Warder bonds in the books.

Even more interesting were two that figured prominently at the end of aMoL.  Both were bonds held by Elayne Trakand.

Aes Sedai are universally described as suffering when Warders they are bonded to die.  She had two different people she was bonded to that died in close succession near the end of the story, yet appparently didn't feel any ill effects from either of them.  Now, it's true that in both cases the souls of her "warders" survived, even though their bodies died.  One of them right in front of her while protecting her life.

 

Which raises an interesting question: we know that channeling is tied to the soul, rather then the body (i.e. Balthamel/Halima).  Does this mean that the Warder bond is also tied to the soul rather than the body?

[Nik]

That's an interesting point. I would think that the soul always survives the body in WoT cosmology, since it's what get eventually reborn. Except normal people's souls go into whatever the waiting place is until they get spun out again, whereas heroes of the horn's souls go into TAR. And in that specific case Rand's soul went straight into Moridin's body. My memories of aMoL are fuzzy, had the horn already been sounded when Birgitte died? I.e. did her soul go into TAR and then get called by the horn, or did it go straight into active hero of the horn mode?

[Andra]

8 hours ago, Nik said:

That's an interesting point. I would think that the soul always survives the body in WoT cosmology, since it's what get eventually reborn. Except normal people's souls go into whatever the waiting place is until they get spun out again, whereas heroes of the horn's souls go into TAR. And in that specific case Rand's soul went straight into Moridin's body. My memories of aMoL are fuzzy, had the horn already been sounded when Birgitte died? I.e. did her soul go into TAR and then get called by the horn, or did it go straight into active hero of the horn mode?

Yes, it had already been sounded.

She lost her head, then instantly reappeared and killed the guy that had just killed her, and was still standing over her dead body.  No delay at all.

 

Here's the twist on the question about bonds being to souls, and souls being immortal: If that's the case, why does ANY death break the Warder bond?  What's different about Birgitte's soul?

Aside from the obvious, of course.

 

Or does the obvious difference explain it sufficiently?  Does every soul that doesn't belong to a Hero go through a "cold reboot" when it dies, while a Hero's soul stays active?  We know the Heroes retain their memories when they die, and go to Tel'aran'rhiod.  Is that enough of a difference to explain it?

 

And some other funky implications: Once the Heroes go back after being called by the Horn, is Birgitte still bonded to Elayne?  If so, will Birgitte in the World of Dreams experience the "severed bond" trauma when Elayne eventually dies in the real world?

Edited June 6, 2022 by Andra

[Nik]

Thanks for refreshing my memory. I would say that when a soul goes into the "waiting room" where it waits until it gets spun out again, the bond is severed. It's possible that it even happens with heroes of the horn (their waiting room is TAR, but it's still a waiting room outside the real/waking world). But Birgitte was a special case because her soul didn't have to go into TAR because the heroes were currently in the waking world. (But then, will the bond break when the heroes go back to TAR? I can't imagine Elayne being perpetually bonded to someone who's not in the world anymore?)

 

[Andra]

Trippy, huh?

 

These are the kinds of things you talk about when you're high.  And I haven't gotten high since before this book came out.

Edited June 7, 2022 by Andra

[DojoToad]

8 hours ago, Andra said:

Trippy, huh?

 

These are the kinds of things you talk about when you're high.  And I haven't gotten high since before this book came out.

Ha!  Never been high, but maybe I need to think on such things after some rum... 😁

[wotfan4472]

On 6/7/2022 at 11:04 AM, Nik said:

Thanks for refreshing my memory. I would say that when a soul goes into the "waiting room" where it waits until it gets spun out again, the bond is severed. It's possible that it even happens with heroes of the horn (their waiting room is TAR, but it's still a waiting room outside the real/waking world). But Birgitte was a special case because her soul didn't have to go into TAR because the heroes were currently in the waking world. (But then, will the bond break when the heroes go back to TAR? I can't imagine Elayne being perpetually bonded to someone who's not in the world anymore?)

 

The interesting thing is, Elayne states quite clearly in her POV that her bond with Brigitte was broken with her death. She already felt the effects, and they will be like Alanna's and Siuan's. I doubt she will react as Egwene did when her bond was severed.  Rand is a different case. He just went from one body to another of his own volition due to the nature of what lay beyond the Bore. He was not cut from his body in death like Brigitte was. Almost exactly like how Miro in Children Of The Mind jumped from his crippled body, to a healthy one due to being in a very similar nature in science fiction.

Edited July 26, 2022 by wotfan4472

[aburuq]

On 6/4/2022 at 4:49 PM, Andra said:

The changes that Egwene sees in him once she uncovers everything aren't because of that trauma.  They are because of emotional responses any normal human would have had to the events.  He wanted to help Rand after the events at the docks, but was compelled to leave immediately.  He wanted to mourn, but wasn't allowed to.  He was angry that he had no choice in either matter.

 

He wasn't traumatized by a broken bond because the bond was never broken.  Not saying that what he did experience wasn't emotionally traumatic, but it wasn't that.

 

What the multiple povs describe of Lan in book 7 when he returns is that his eyes have death in them. That seems more than just being troubled and traumatized. He seems to have experienced that experience of the death of his aes sedai. And tells Nyneave that when he is reunited with her, that he felt morraines death and it will consume him and he will die ....

[Andra]

17 hours ago, aburuq said:

 

What the multiple povs describe of Lan in book 7 when he returns is that his eyes have death in them. That seems more than just being troubled and traumatized. He seems to have experienced that experience of the death of his aes sedai. And tells Nyneave that when he is reunited with her, that he felt morraines death and it will consume him and he will die ....

Except that we know absolutely that whatever he felt, it wasn't Moiraine's death.  Because she didn't die.

 

Part of the reason Moiraine made the arrangement she did with Myrelle was so that Lan wouldn't waste his life after she was gone.  If the bond was passed automatically by her being trapped on the other side of the stone doorway in the land of the Finns, he would have felt all the pain and desperation she was feeling fighting Lanfear, followed by an abrupt change in the bond.  And then immediately with feeling Myrelle far in the distance, and the Compulsion to find her.

 

Since he had already been told by Moiraine that this would happen at her death, it's perfectly reasonable for him to believe that she had actually died.  But we know that she hadn't.

 

He believed he had felt her death.  It wouldn't be remotely the first time in the books - or the last - where a character firmly believed something that wasn't true.

 

Please note: Lan was familiar with what happens to Warders whose Aes Sedai die, because he had seen it multiple times before.  But since he had never felt it himself, he had nothing but an assumption that what he went through was the same thing.  It was a reasonable assumption, given everything he (and the readers) knew at the time.  But it was still just an assumption.

[aburuq]

9 minutes ago, Andra said:

Except that we know absolutely that whatever he felt, it wasn't Moiraine's death.  Because she didn't die.

 

Part of the reason Moiraine made the arrangement she did with Myrelle was so that Lan wouldn't waste his life after she was gone.  If the bond was passed automatically by her being trapped on the other side of the stone doorway in the land of the Finns, he would have felt all the pain and desperation she was feeling fighting Lanfear, followed by an abrupt change in the bond.  And then immediately with feeling Myrelle far in the distance, and the Compulsion to find her.

 

Since he had already been told by Moiraine that this would happen at her death, it's perfectly reasonable for him to believe that she had actually died.  But we know that she hadn't.

 

He believed he had felt her death.  It wouldn't be remotely the first time in the books - or the last - where a character firmly believed something that wasn't true.

 

Please note: Lan was familiar with what happens to Warders whose Aes Sedai die, because he had seen it multiple times before.  But since he had never felt it himself, he had nothing but an assumption that what he went through was the same thing.  It was a reasonable assumption, given everything he (and the readers) knew at the time.  But it was still just an assumption.

But why did it affect him so deeply is my question...something happened to him beyond just the grief of losing her it seems...

[Andra]

3 hours ago, aburuq said:

But why did it affect him so deeply is my question...something happened to him beyond just the grief of losing her it seems...

We don't know specifically if he had some other reason than believing that he had felt her die to make him react the way he did.  It may just have been that loss of a connection that had been part of his life every day for twenty years.  After Dumai's Wells, the Warders of the stilled Aes Sedai reacted almost the same as the Warders of others who had actually died - not as much of a berserker rage, but still far more than just concern for a comrade.

 

But we know that it wasn't actually feeling her die, because she wasn't dead.

[aburuq]

On 8/4/2022 at 8:51 PM, Andra said:

We don't know specifically if he had some other reason than believing that he had felt her die to make him react the way he did.  It may just have been that loss of a connection that had been part of his life every day for twenty years.  After Dumai's Wells, the Warders of the stilled Aes Sedai reacted almost the same as the Warders of others who had actually died - not as much of a berserker rage, but still far more than just concern for a comrade.

 

But we know that it wasn't actually feeling her die, because she wasn't dead.

 

It seems more likely to me that his bond to Morraine was somehow shattered or ripped away, once she was in an alternative reality and the door to that reality destroyed. Obviously not the same as the way warders experience their aes sedai's death, but some kind of breaking or tearing of the bond that does its own violence and harm like the warders of the stilled Aes Sedai you mention. It seems that that's what's affected him so deeply, more than grieving her "death". 

[Andra]

4 hours ago, aburuq said:

 

It seems more likely to me that his bond to Morraine was somehow shattered or ripped away, once she was in an alternative reality and the door to that reality destroyed. Obviously not the same as the way warders experience their aes sedai's death, but some kind of breaking or tearing of the bond that does its own violence and harm like the warders of the stilled Aes Sedai you mention. It seems that that's what's affected him so deeply, more than grieving her "death". 

Yes, that is one of the possibilities, discussed earlier in this thread.

We aren't told anywhere in the books that the process was specifically traumatic to Lan, but he definitely felt when the Bond left Moiraine and passed to Myrelle.  

 

It may be that Moiraine's connection to the world was broken when the doorway melted, and that this had the same effect to the Bond as her death would have.  Triggering the pre-designed process that automatically passed it.  It may also be that, since she knew what was coming and had already made arrangements, she might have done something intentional just before falling through the doorway that triggered the passing.

 

I suspect that, as she was kind of busy at the time, she didn't take some special action to pass it, and that it was the destruction of the door that did it.

 

I don't doubt that there would have been some shock associated with this.  Nor do I doubt that Lan believed that whatever he felt meant Moiraine had died.  But we know that he was wrong about that part.

 

Realize one thing - unless Moiraine had discussed her experience inside the ring with the Wise Ones, literally no one in the world thought she was still alive.  Until Thom read her letter.  At which time he was the only one.

So no one had any reason to question what Lan believed.