Why Graendal didn't kill Asmodean

[Tenshin_Xo]

Duly noted, and agreed with. I hope Lanfear suffered mightily there. I was thinking at one point that she may have been stilled/burned out and when the DO recycled her he healed her to a limited degree(more than Nynaeve would have been able to but less than a man would have been able to). Or perhaps it was a side effect of being in a new body, although Halima would be negative evidence for that possibility.

[Leopoled Boothe]

No offense but you might want to reread the book, not to mention my prior posts in this thread instead of pulling a single sentence out of context. The plan between the four is in the books. It begins in the prologue with a meeting at the palace in Caemlyn, apparently arranged by Lanfear who puts herself forth as being the one to spy on Rand. Birgitte later takes Nynaeve in TAR to spy on Moggy spying on them, while Rhavin specifically explains the plan to Sammael who is waffling because he's not a part of the planned link. On the way to Cairhien from the Waste the camp is attacked by a too small group of trollocs ostentatiously shouting "Sammael and the Golden Bees". Melindhra attemps to kill Mat with a dagger bearing the Golden Bees. Moggy explains it to Nynaeve quite concisely as quoted by Tenshin right after Nynaeve slaps the a'dam on her and right before she tells Nynaeve Rand plans to go to Caemlyn.

 

Melindhra attacking Mat is, IMO the trap being sprung. They fully expect Rand to hare off to Illian at this point to avenge his best friend. The only part I'm theorizing about is that they planned for Graendal to be in Caemlyn on that day to make fewer trips for Lanfear and so they could link someplace safe before Traveling to Illian.

 

Yes, I am quite aware of the plan to lure Rand to Illian to confront Sammael where he would be ambushed by Graendal, Lanfear and Rhavin all linked. That part definitly is in the book. However, this plan did not include the three FS meeting in Camelyn to link. They never specified exactly when or where they would link, and form what I remember it seems a though Rhavin would have been opposed to the idea. I have been meaning to read TFoH again. Correct me if I'm wrong but did Rhavin not forbid the other three for setting foot in Camelyn? Oh and incidentally, no offence taken.

 

Again, no offense, but need I remind you that you began this thread for the purpose of assuming that Slayer did it based on no more evidence than that he seemingly went into the Tower of Genjei (which at this point in the story we don't know is connected to the doorways at all) toward the end of the prior book?

 

Well, actually my theory is contengent not on the fact that Slayer seemingly entered the Tower of Genjei, but on the fact the RJ seemed to go out of his way to explain the nature of the Tower so early in the series. Why explain about the Tower in book 4 when it will play not significant role until book 12. Seems to me that RJ might have wanted us to make the connection between the tower and the doorways at this point. Why? I can't say for sure but it is possible that he wanted us to make the connection between Lanfear being in Finnland and Slayer possibly being able to enter Finnland. And again no offence taken.

 

Lan's bond broke which, as far as we know at that point in the story, can only be acheived through the death of his Aes Sedai.

 

Hmmm, I guess it just comes for experience with reading works of fiction, but a rule of thumb that I follow is to never assume that anything stated as an absolute actually is. Therefore, just because they said that Warder bonds could only be broken throught the death or stilling of the AS it doesn't meant that there aren't other ways. In fact, the fact that they stated it as such means that there probably are other as of yet unknown ways. I also predicted from very early on that a method for healing genteling/stilling would be discovered. I made the this prediction based on nothing other than the fact that they had stated that it was impossible.

[Tenshin_Xo]

The tower was IMO explained for the purpose of foreshadowing Moiraine's eventual return. It's great as a little bit of world building too, one of those details that helps make a realistic picture. At first it was convinient for Mat and Rand to see it during their trip towards Caemlyn, then again when we learn about T'A'R and Birgitte. Slayer was just a plot mechanism to info-dump surreptitiously.

[Beckon]

The fact that you've guessed right in the past does not count as evidence. It doesn't change the fact that the only thing we know about Slayer that even remotely connects him to the murder is that he was last seen near the Tower of Genjhei. He fails the intuitively obvious test quite miserably since, at the time of the murder we don't know Genjei is related to the doorways.

 

It's hypocritical to reject a theory because it assumes something, when you're own theory requires you to assume there's some significance to RJ introducing the tower so far in advance of making use of it. Theories by definition include assumptions. If they didn't they would be facts and we wouldn't still be having this conversation 13 years after the book came out.

[Luckers]

Yes, I am quite aware of the plan to lure Rand to Illian to confront Sammael where he would be ambushed by Graendal, Lanfear and Rhavin all linked. That part definitly is in the book. However, this plan did not include the three FS meeting in Camelyn to link. They never specified exactly when or where they would link, and form what I remember it seems a though Rhavin would have been opposed to the idea.

 

We don't know that Caemlyn was the meeting place, its true, but there are some things that we do know, that contribute to the discussion.

 

One, they did specify the methodology of the link. Specifically Lanfear was to watch Rand, and wait for him to react to Mat's death by dashing off to Illian. After she witnessed that, she was to join Graendal and Rahvin, and go to Illian to take Rand out while he was busy with Sammael.

 

Two, none of the Forsaken knew Graendals' hding place at that stage in the books. More specifically, Lanfear and Rahvin didn't. That means that Graendal had to be some place where Lanfear could find her, and in a hurry.

 

Three, their plan was based on reaction. They would jump on Rand the second he moved on Sammael. That implies that Graendal and Rahvin were waiting in the same place once the plan had been instigated by the command being sent to Melindhra. Rahvin was in Caemlyn.

 

As i said, nothing deductively states Caemlyn, but it does make it the most likely.

 

Quote:

Lan's bond broke which, as far as we know at that point in the story, can only be acheived through the death of his Aes Sedai.

 

 

Hmmm, I guess it just comes for experience with reading works of fiction, but a rule of thumb that I follow is to never assume that anything stated as an absolute actually is. Therefore, just because they said that Warder bonds could only be broken throught the death or stilling of the AS it doesn't meant that there aren't other ways. In fact, the fact that they stated it as such means that there probably are other as of yet unknown ways. I also predicted from very early on that a method for healing genteling/stilling would be discovered. I made the this prediction based on nothing other than the fact that they had stated that it was impossible.

 

I think that point was playing to the obvious issue. Lan's bond broke as a result of Moiraine fighting a Forsaken, falling through a ter'angreal, and having that ter'angreal subsequently explode. Obvious answer, death.

 

From the point of view of the reader at the time, for Lanfear to be responsible she must have survived the original explosion, the fight with Moiraine, and the fury of the Finn. She had to get word past the Finns to a man who had last been seen entering the Tower of Genjei nearly six months beforehand, whom we had never seen connected to her in the past--ever--commanding, of all things, the death of Asmodean--as opposed to aid in her escape, or the death of Rand--that man had to get out of Finnland, discover Asmodean was in Caemlyn--something he had no way of knowing, remember as far as Lanfear knew Rand should have been in Illian, or failing that, Cairhain. And Asmodean certainly would have either been with him, or waiting for him in Cairhain. Moreover all of this must have happened in the, at best, 6 hours (more likely 3 or 4) between when she fell through the doorway, and when Asmodean died.

 

There is no way RJ could have concidered that intuitively obvious to us at the time of the book. In fact, obvious or not, im not even sure its possible.

[Leopoled Boothe]

The fact that you've guessed right in the past does not count as evidence.

 

Didn't mean to imply that it did, sweetheart, I was just using it as an example to add credibility to my rule of thumb.

 

It doesn't change the fact that the only thing we know about Slayer that even remotely connects him to the murder is that he was last seen near the Tower of Genjhei.

 

Actually, he was last seen in the Two Rivers. What I'm getting at is that once when he felt threatened he fled to the tower go Genhji, so it is not completely unreasonable to assume that he might have used the same tactic when he felt threatened a second time (I know, this is assuming that he did indeed duck into the Tower the first time).

 

He fails the intuitively obvious test quite miserably since, at the time of the murder we don't know Genjei is related to the doorways.

 

We know via Birgitte that the Tower leads to the land of the Finns. Do we not yet know by the end of TFoH that the creatures on the other side of the doorways are called Aelfinn and Eelfin? (seriously, I'm asking because I don't know).

 

It's hypocritical to reject a theory because it assumes something, when you're own theory requires you to assume there's some significance to RJ introducing the tower so far in advance of making use of it. Theories by definition include assumptions. If they didn't they would be facts and we wouldn't still be having this conversation 13 years after the book came out.

 

Go back and read my original post again, my reason for rejecting the "Graendal done it" theory is because due to its popularity it does not match up with RJ's comment that few people have figured it out. It has already been pointed out that this is an old quote, none the less people do continue to ask RJ who killed Asmo and he has never, to my knowlge, indicated that more people are begining to figure it out. Moreover, I never said that my theory didn't require assumptions (it requires assumptions out the wazoo, and even that based on the assumption that said wazoo even exists). In my origional post I first stated my reason for rejecting Graendal and then included the bit about the "Graendal Done It Theory" being based on assumptions in order to illustrate that my "Slayer Done It Per Lanfear's Order" theory was equally viable despite its dependance on assumptions (I swear, as soon as I find a higher paying job I'm hiring myself a spin-doctor).

 

I will admit that I got a bit over excited when you stated that an agreement between Graendal, Lanfear and Rhavin to meet in Camelyn, link and then travel to Illian was never overtly stated in the text. This is because people have put this assumption forward so often in their theories that I was begining to believe that it was stated in the text and that I had somehow missed it. Twice!! This is a point that always bugged me even when I was a suporter of the "Graendal Done It" camp. It was just such a relief to see someone admit that no such arangement was ever overtly made in the books.

 

And just so that we're all on the same page you should all know that thanks to many of the arguments presented in this thread that I no longer reject the "Graendal Done It" theory. I am now torn 50/50 between Graendal and Lanfear via Slayer as the murderer.

 

As one final thought I would like to point out the the word "hypocrite" is one that is thrown around much to liberally in this day and age. 100% of the people on this Earth have some standard by which they differentiate right and wrong and exactly 0% of those people live up to that standard 100% of the time. A hypocrite is defined as a person who preaches one standard while knowingly and willingly living by another. Those of us who despite our best efforts inadvertantly fail to live by our own standard are not hypocrites, we merely suffer from a little imperfection known as being human.

[Luckers]

And your thoughts on my comments about the 'obvious' problem of the Slayer theory? Specifically the scenario it requires. Its in the post prior to yours if that helps.

[Beckon]

Didn't mean to imply that it did, sweetheart, I was just using it as an example to add credibility to my rule of thumb.

 

Sweetheart? Anyway, I'd stated in my earlier post which you quoted bits of that I didn't think they were dead either. I didn't however arrive at that conclusion because of anything the book told me. I assumed it.

 

Actually, he was last seen in the Two Rivers. What I'm getting at is that once when he felt threatened he fled to the tower go Genhji, so it is not completely unreasonable to assume that he might have used the same tactic when he felt threatened a second time (I know, this is assuming that he did indeed duck into the Tower the first time).

 

Oh and what caused him to feel threatened the second time and made him duck into the tower just as Lanfear arrived hmmmm? We haven't seen him in six months. You can't validate an assumption by adding more groundless assumptions.

 

We know via Birgitte that the Tower leads to the land of the Finns. Do we not yet know by the end of TFoH that the creatures on the other side of the doorways are called Aelfinn and Eelfin? (seriously, I'm asking because I don't know).

 

I'm honestly not sure about this myself. I'll have to look it up. He still fails on intuitively obvious on the grounds that we haven't seen or heard from him in six months.

 

Go back and read my original post again, my reason for rejecting the "Graendal done it" theory is because due to its popularity it does not match up with RJ's comment that few people have figured it out.

 

I'll point it out again. That's a very old quote.

 

Moreover, I never said that my theory didn't require assumptions (it requires assumptions out the wazoo, and even that based on the assumption that said wazoo even exists). In my origional post I first stated my reason for rejecting Graendal and then included the bit about the "Graendal Done It Theory" being based on assumptions in order to illustrate that my "Slayer Done It Per Lanfear's Order" theory was equally viable despite its dependance on assumptions (I swear, as soon as I find a higher paying job I'm hiring myself a spin-doctor).

 

All assumptions are not created equal. Some are logical extensions of fact like "they needed to be somewhere Lanfear could get ahold of them per the ambush plan and Graendal hadn't revealed her location to the others at the time so it's likely she and Rhavin waited in Caemlyn". Others are you saying "well 13 years ago RJ said not many people knew and in the story 6 months ago this Slayer guy was seen near the tower Lanfear ends up in so he must have met Lanfear in the tower and gotten orders to kill Asmo in Caemlyn even though Lanfear has no reason to think Asmo would be in Caemlyn and we have no idea why Slayer would have gone back to the tower at that exact moment in time."

 

As one final thought I would like to point out the the word "hypocrite" is one that is thrown around much to liberally in this day and age. 100% of the people on this Earth have some standard by which they differentiate right and wrong and exactly 0% of those people live up to that standard 100% of the time. A hypocrite is defined as a person who preaches one standard while knowingly and willingly living by another. Those of us who despite our best efforts inadvertantly fail to live by our own standard are not hypocrites, we merely suffer from a little imperfection known as being human.

 

I didn't say you were a hypocrite I said your post was hypocritical. You rejected the "they met in Caemlyn" statement on the grounds that it was not overtly stated in the book when nothing about your theory is overtly stated in the book. That was hypocritical and I'll stand by that. Likewise if you ever catch me rejecting an idea just because it's not explicitly stated in the books, you're more than welcome to call me out on it.

[Guest Fire Lord]

Given how the battle went down and that the palace is a big place, if Graendal has only been there a few minutes there's no reason she would know anything was amiss.

 

As you say the palace is a big place. When have you seen it practically empty? As I understand it, it was mostly deserted during the battle. If she arrived during or after the battle, it would be obvious something was amiss, seeing there are no people around.

 

 

If she just got there and the plan was to meet Rhavin there, then she has no idea as yet that Rhavin isn't perfectly healthy. The palace was quiet at the time of the murder.

 

More than merely quiet, I would say.

 

You know what I find really interesting? A lot of people are so bent on disproving Graendal theories. Why? Nobody ever seems to have an alternate suspect. Pointing out ways in which this or that detail of this or that theory may be incorrect doesn't disprove anything. It doesn't make anyone else any more likely to have done it. Asmodean is dead and somebody did it. Of the non-Forsaken suspects, there is either little to no evidence that they could or would have done it, or in the case of Fain RJ has stated that it wasn't him. That leaves the Forsaken of which all can be eliminated except Graendal(Lanfear falls to lack of evidence IMO).

 

If this is addressed to me, I'll have you know that I'm not arguing against Graendal sorely because I don't have any other candidate. I prefered not to bring in what I believe here because it would have confused issues even more than they are. And yes, small things don't necessarily disprove the whole theory, it's just that that's a hole I saw, and I wanted someone to fill it. And for the record, none did.

[Beckon]

As you say the palace is a big place. When have you seen it practically empty? As I understand it, it was mostly deserted during the battle. If she arrived during or after the battle, it would be obvious something was amiss, seeing there are no people around.

 

Being a big place means you can fit a lot of people in it without them tripping over each other. If Graendal has only been in that one room, not seeing or hearing another person would not be cause for alarm, especially if she'd only been there a few moments. Indeed the gang would have likely chosen a room to Travel into where there wasn't likely to be anyone nearby to see them step out of a hole in the air.

[Cybertrolloc]

Can we at least agree to what the books actually, literally say?

 

How can there be any confusion as to what Birgitte says to Perrin in tSR? "The tower leads to the lands of the *Finn," it's right there in black and white! Are we talking bad translations, changes to the text in new editions, what?

[grump]

No matter who you think did it you have to base part of your theory on assumptions. No one starts with any kind of firm foundation.

 

That being said here are some isolited thoughts.

 

Lanfears visit was a suprize to everybody but Moraine

 

Lanfears disapearence and Asmos death were perhaps 5 hours apart.

 

No mention is made of what Lanfear was doing imediatly prior to her disapearence

 

Asmo included himself in the group at the last moment

how could anyone plan an ambush?

 

He died at the end of the book and edmonds field was saved at the three quarter mark. How much time was there between the two?

 

Moraine knew who he was because she evesdropped with her little jewel Did she tell anyone ?

 

Was Grendal in Camlyn If so why? Wasnt she supposed to be part of a trap somewhere else.

 

What was said that triggered the attack on Mat the night before.

 

Does the tower and the Finns have any part in his death. Could they have been expecting the two ladys and or known where hr would be and passed it on

 

Frustrating to have to build your foundstion on such airy foundation blocks huh>

[Leopoled Boothe]

Anyway, I'd stated in my earlier post which you quoted bits of that I didn't think they were dead either. I didn't however arrive at that conclusion because of anything the book told me. I assumed it.

 

I didn't arive at that conclusion based on anything the book told me either. I arived at that conclusion based on prior experience with Science Fiction writing. Experience has taught me that it is best to assume that anything stated as an absolute is infact not an absolute at all and that some exception to the rule will surface. Its kind of like what your teacher told you about true or false tests, be weary of the terms "always" and "never." At any rate, you can question my methodolgy but you can't argue with success (I was right afterall) :D

 

Oh and what caused him to feel threatened the second time

 

Once again all the info you seek is in my origional post if you would only take the time to re-read it. Slayer feels threatened for two reasons:

 

1: He has just taken an arrow to the shoulder from a Two Rivers bow. Now I don't know in what ways if any Slayer may have been anatomically or physilogically modafied, but I do know that a normal person in the same situation is likely to lose the use of one arm for some time. So Slayer feels threatend in part because someone is present who is capable of wounding him and because he is now crippled.

 

2. He has reason to believe that his cover has been blown. Slayer is no dummy and therefore he probably assumes that Perrin in onto him, or soon will be. He also knows that Perrin and the Two Rivers Men are no joke as he has just witnessed them defeating an army of Trollocs. Thus, he is on the S-list of a competent general with a powerfull army behind him.

 

All in all, I'd say he has plenty of reason to feel threatened. Slayer's forte is applying stealth in order to take out a single victum, not single handedly taking on entire armies, which he would likely have to litterally do given his current state.

 

and made him duck into the tower just as Lanfear arrived hmmmm? We haven't seen him in six months. You can't validate an assumption by adding more groundless assumptions.

 

According to my theory, as stated in my original post, Slayer need not have entered the Tower just as Lanfear arived. My theory states that Slayer would have wanted a safe place to lay low while his shoulder heals and also to let the heat from Perrin and the Two Rivers Men cool down. Slayer would have wanted to seek refuge in a place where he knows any potental persurers cannot easily follow. Since we already have an association between Slayer and the Tower of Ghenji, the Tower seems like a logical choice. So in short, Slayer was already in Finnland long before Lanfear arived. Moreover, the fact that we haven't seen Slayer in six months could just as easily validate this theory as invalidate it; it is possible that we have not seen him in six months because he has spent this time laying low in the Tower of Ghenji and/or Finnland. At any rate, I have already admitted that my theory, like all theories, is based on assumptions (I never denied it, infact) but I do maintain that these assumptions are not groundless.

 

And just out of curiosity how did you arive at the time frame of six months?

 

I'll point it out again. That's a very old quote.

 

I've already admitted to that oversite on my part. To point it out again is just petty. Come now Beckon, I've been reading your posts for a while now and I know you are better than that.

 

All assumptions are not created equal. Some are logical extensions of fact like "they needed to be somewhere Lanfear could get ahold of them per the ambush plan and Graendal hadn't revealed her location to the others at the time so it's likely she and Rhavin waited in Caemlyn". Others are you saying "well 13 years ago RJ said not many people knew and in the story 6 months ago this Slayer guy was seen near the tower Lanfear ends up in so he must have met Lanfear in the tower and gotten orders to kill Asmo in Caemlyn even though Lanfear has no reason to think Asmo would be in Caemlyn and we have no idea why Slayer would have gone back to the tower at that exact moment in time."

 

But my assumptions are the logical extentions of fact:

 

Fact: Slayer felt threatened by Perrin in TAR and fled to the Tower of Ghenji.

 

Fact: After the battle at the Two Rivers Slayer is wounded and has reason to believe that his cover has been blown and therefore has reason to feel threatened again. Thus, he flees the Two Rivers.

 

Logical extention: Based on a presidented incident of Slayer feeling threatened and fleeing to the Tower of Ghenji I made the assumption that when given reason to feel threatened a second time he will once again flee to the refuge of the Tower of Ghenji.

 

Now tell me, and be completely honest, can you still maintain that my assumptions are completely groundless? I'm not asking you to accept them as true, I'm not even asking you to put them on equal ground with the assumption that the three Forsaken agreed to meet in Camelyn, but can you still honestly say that that my assumptions are completely groundless.

 

For the record I would like to say that I certainly do hold the two assumptions on equal ground. As I have already admitted the "Graendal Done It" camp has, via their arguments in this thread, made some leeway in winning me back. I'm not ready to jump back on the bandwaggon just yet, but I am now on a skateboard clinging to the bumper. Of couse writen in big bold letters across that skateboard is the phrase "Slayer Done It Per Lanfear's Orders." Anyway I hope this paints a vivid enough picture of where I stand on the issue.

 

Sweetheart?

 

Yah about that, I have gotten the impression based on some of your pervious posts that you are female. Yet another big assumption on my part I guess, but if I am wrong then please accept my sincerest and most humble appologies :oops:

[BrainFireBob]

Yes. The groundless part is assuming he actually entered the Tower.

 

Slayer can step in and out of Tel'aran'rhiod at will. He fled to the Tower, and ran around it a few times . .and disappeared. And Perrin, assuming he entered the Tower, began trying to figure out how.

 

And Birgitte told him not to. Because it's nearly impossible to escape.

 

My conclusion? Slayer stepped out of tel'aran'rhiod after trying to lure Perrin to one of the few truly dangerous environments in the World of Dreams *that you can enter in the World of Dream*. Like tricking someone into where you've prepared an avalanche. That was my conclusion at the time. Because knowing science fiction writing, you don't necessarily accept the obvious presentation if it's hidden.

 

We have no proof the Slayer actually entered the Tower, just that he enticed Perrin to.

[Leopoled Boothe]

Yes. The groundless part is assuming he actually entered the Tower.

 

Slayer can step in and out of Tel'aran'rhiod at will. He fled to the Tower, and ran around it a few times . .and disappeared. And Perrin, assuming he entered the Tower, began trying to figure out how.

 

And Birgitte told him not to. Because it's nearly impossible to escape.

 

My conclusion? Slayer stepped out of tel'aran'rhiod after trying to lure Perrin to one of the few truly dangerous environments in the World of Dreams *that you can enter in the World of Dream*. Like tricking someone into where you've prepared an avalanche. That was my conclusion at the time. Because knowing science fiction writing, you don't necessarily accept the obvious presentation if it's hidden.

 

We have no proof the Slayer actually entered the Tower, just that he enticed Perrin to.

 

 

Assuming that Slayer entered the tower does not make the theory groundless, it is a very reasonable hypothesis as to what happend that day in TAR based on what we observed. Granted it is only one of many vaible hypotheses. I'll admit that if this hypothesis is incorrect then my entire theory falls apart but then the same is true with the "Graendal Done It Theory" if the hypothesis that Greandal, Lanfear and Rhavin agreed to meet in Cameylen is false. It too is just one of many viable possibilites concerning how the Forsaken were to go about fulfilling there plan. In fact, is just as big an assumption as Slayer entering the Tower of Ghenji, since it is a big world and there are many places where the three Forsaken could have chosen to meet and link before traveling to Illian, and this scenerio itslef is all based on the assumption that they even agreed to meet, link and travel together in the first place. Now lets consider what would actually happen if the three linked, two of them would be giving up control to the third. Given this, whose to say that the one in control is actully going to open a gateway to Illian? The one in control would be able to open a gateway to anywhere and force the others to through it against their will. Given the paranoid nature of the Forsaken I would think that they would probably insist that the link be made in Illian and that no mutual traveling be invloved. Just my opinion of course but it is certainly what I would do if I were in their shoes. So whether you're talking about the assumption that Slayer entered the Tower of Ghenji or that the three Forsaken planned to meet in Camelyn each is only one of many viable possibilities. Call one groundless and you call them both groundless (though neither is anything of the sort).

[Leopoled Boothe]

Lanfears visit was a suprize to everybody but Moraine

 

This is because Moiraine entered the rings in Rhudian (sp) and saw this scenerio as one of many possible futures.

 

Lanfears disapearence and Asmos death were perhaps 5 hours apart.

 

True, but it is possible that time in Finnland and time in Randland pass at different rates. Moreover, it is possible that the rate is a variable as between TAR and the real world. Five hours in Randland may have amounted to several days or even months for Lanfear and Moiraine in Finnland. I know there is really nothing to substantiate this, just a random thought of my own really.

 

No mention is made of what Lanfear was doing imediatly prior to her disapearence

 

Very true and very good point. I don't know what to tell you about that one.

 

Asmo included himself in the group at the last moment

how could anyone plan an ambush?

 

Yah, I have always felt that the murderer did not go to Camelyn with the intent of killing Asmo. Rather I have always thougth that Asmo stumbled onto someone who was up to some other sinister task which unfortunatly for Asmo required that all witnesses be eliminated. The exception is the "Slayer Done It Per Lanfear's Order" theory, but this invloves the Finns who seem to have an awfull lot of knowlege about Randland. It's possible that they would know were Asmo was and could help someone to plan an ambush, or at least help them to be in the right place at the right time.

 

He died at the end of the book and edmonds field was saved at the three quarter mark. How much time was there between the two?

 

If I may make a correction, Emonds Feild was saved at the three quarter mark of Book 4: "The Shadow Rising" and Asmo died at the end of Book 5: "The Fires of Heaven." This would allow for a little more time. But Don't sweat it, some of the books blur together for me too :D

 

Moraine knew who he was because she evesdropped with her little jewel Did she tell anyone ?

 

Don't know but that certainly is a good point and one I never considered.

 

Was Graendal in Camlyn If so why? Wasnt she supposed to be part of a trap somewhere else.

 

The most popular theory is the she and Lanfear had agreed to meet Rhavin in Camelyn to link with him and travel together to Illian. For more info and opinions on that theory just read this entire thread. You'll see plenty on the subject. Trust me.

 

Does the tower and the Finns have any part in his death. Could they have been expecting the two ladys and or known where hr would be and passed it on

 

Again just keep reading this thread and you will see plenty of opinions on this subject. Believe me you will.

 

Frustrating to have to build your foundstion on such airy foundation blocks huh>

 

True dat.

[Cybertrolloc]

Leopoled Boothe,

 

In The Shadow Rising there's a few cat and mouse instances between Slayer and Perrin in TaR:

- The Tower of Ghenjei scene is an earlier one.

- The last one is where Perrin shoots an arrow into Slayer, and in "real world" Luc flees with some kind of injury.

 

Slayer then is off camera until Winter's Heart I think...in the intervening time Moridin says he has Slayer hunting Fain, also in Winter's Heart.

 

Asmo dies at the end of the next book, Fires of Heaven.

[Leopoled Boothe]

Slayer then is off camera until Winter's Heart I think...in the intervening time Moridin says he has Slayer hunting Fain, also in Winter's Heart.

 

Good point and well played, however, there is a possible way around this. We really don't know exactly when Moridin came into existance. Ishameal died in TDR and Moridin first appears in CoS. Unlike, the Gar's RJ doesn't show up the resurection scene so this gives us a wide range of possiblities for when Moridin actually came into being. It is possible he was brought back sometime between TDR and TSR or very early on during TSR and had already given this order to Slayer before Perrin even returned to the Two Rivers. In fact, some people theorize that hunting Fain is the very reason that Slayer was in the Two Rivers to begin with. For more info on this see the "Slayer and Fain, Why?" thread on this board. Moreover, it is also possible that he gave Slayer the order as Ishameal. So it could be that while Slayer is resting and recouperating in the Tower of Ghenji and/or Finnland Moridin just assumes that Slayer is still about his task of hunting Fain.

[Beckon]

I didn't arive at that conclusion based on anything the book told me either. I arived at that conclusion based on prior experience with Science Fiction writing. Experience has taught me that it is best to assume that anything stated as an absolute is infact not an absolute at all and that some exception to the rule will surface. Its kind of like what your teacher told you about true or false tests, be weary of the terms "always" and "never." At any rate, you can question my methodolgy but you can't argue with success (I was right afterall) :D

 

You're being a little condescending here doncha think? I'm well aware of literary devices like foreshadowing. I grasped what you were saying the first time. I would appreciate being addressed as an adult and not your ten-year-old niece if it's not too much to ask.

 

Not that it hasn't been mentioned 1000 times but RJ said there are clues in the books up to the murder and that it should be intuitively obvious to the most casual observer. Obviously RJs idea of obvious is a tad skewed since he already knows but I sincerely doubt he'd include his future intentions for the story as anything that should be intuitively obvious to the most casual observer. The thing that prompted me to consider that the murderer was one of the four conspirators is the fact that this plot is threaded through the whole book. Then at the end it came to nothing because of some bad luck and Rand going after the wrong bad guy. That made it seem completely arbitrary to me unless the purpose of the whole thing was to give us the Asmo clues. I don't present that as evidence though, or suggest it as a reason why anyone should believe my ideas, because it's nothing more than my impression.

 

And just out of curiosity how did you arive at the time frame of six months?

 

Luckers used it and I ran with it in lieu of actually looking it up. It's a number of months at least. At the time Slayer disappears Rand is in Cold Rocks Hold. They then spend several weeks traveling to Alcair Dal and after the meeting there they have to wait some time for the other chiefs to arrive. When next we see Rand in TFOH, he's in Rhuidean where he stays for some time before traveling on foot across the waste again to Cairhien. The battles there last some days and I believe it states that Rand has been in the palace for 10 days on the day he makes the fateful decision to go to Caemlyn.

 

I've already admitted to that oversite on my part. To point it out again is just petty. Come now Beckon, I've been reading your posts for a while now and I know you are better than that.

 

You brought it up again in your last post and then proceeded to justify it by saying that he's never rescinded the statement so it could still apply. I rejected it again.

 

Now tell me, and be completely honest, can you still maintain that my assumptions are completely groundless? I'm not asking you to accept them as true, I'm not even asking you to put them on equal ground with the assumption that the three Forsaken agreed to meet in Camelyn, but can you still honestly say that that my assumptions are completely groundless.

 

Your original assumption that Slayer went into the tower was not groundless, though it was not the only possibility. Your further assumption that some nameless person or event caused him to go back so that he could be there when Lanfear arrived is groundless.

 

The Graendal theory doesn't fall apart if you can't prove they chose to meet in Caemlyn. There have been other reasons proposed why Graendal may have gone to Caemlyn though obviously I find my version to be most likely. Why would they arrange to meet in some random unfamiliar place before heading to Illian?

 

Yah about that, I have gotten the impression based on some of your pervious posts that you are female. Yet another big assumption on my part I guess, but if I am wrong then please accept my sincerest and most humble appologies :oops:

 

You were right about female. I guess I missed the part where we were on familiar enough terms for you to be calling me sweetheart. I generally find it condescending when people apply pet names to people they barely know.

[Luckers]

On the six months, this was my reasoning. Firstly note i was saying six of our months, not six WoT months. The timelines below will be in their system, since that is how it is expressed by them as characters, then i will convert it.

 

Perrin timeline - The incident with Slayer and the Tower of Genjei is occurs in chapter 28, on the first night out of the ways, which places it two days after Perrin left Tear.

 

Rand timeline - Rand & co. stay 7 days at Rhuidean waiting on Moiraine. After she emerged they leave on the 8th for cold rocks hold. They sleep three times on that trip, which takes our day count to 14. At Cold Rocks they remain 3 days, so we are up to 17. It takes around 5 days to travel to Alcair'dal so 22. Next estimate we get is in rhuidean, a little over a month (40 days) has past, so around 50, which takes out daycount to around 72. It takes nearly a month to reach the pass, making it 112 days. It took another two weeks to reach Cairhein, making it 132 days. Inside Cairhein they remain for an undisclosed time, somewhere around 2 weeks though. 152 days.

 

Ergo, i layed the rough timeline of 6 months between the incidents. It was not meant to be exact.

[grump]

Thank you for plugging a hole in my reasoning. I completly spaced that Slayer left town wounded. It would have been tough to attack anybody in that condition and we don't know what access he had to healing. So a books worth of time would have him back in full operating condition.

 

Did any thoughts come to you about the Mat portion of the post?

[Tenshin_Xo]

Being shot in the chest with a broadhead arrow will take a long time to heal more than 6 months and probably closer to a year, even with (our modern) medicine. Moridin has little to no skill with healing, assuming of course that he is Ishamael recycled. (see the prologue for EotW, and his slowness to heal after Rand burned him, granted he shouldn't have been able to heal himself)

It's plainly obvious that Asmodean's death is an act of coincidence, unless he was carrying some kind of tracker(no evidence for or against).

 

No mention is made of what Lanfear was doing imediatly prior to her disapearence

You mean aside from spying on Rand via the DF merchants and probably other unknown sources?

[Luckers]

Well, to be fair, no one can heal themself, and who is Ishamael likely to trust.

 

As for the prologue... that was an issue of madness, which we know healing isn't terribly effective on. The context doesnt really suggest much about the degree of Ishamael's ability.

[grump]

Lanfear came to get a progress report and what she heard made her angry enough to start the riot.

 

What I was asking about was what she was doing the previous 2 or 3 days before she showed up.

[Beckon]

Nothing is mentioned of it, she just says she's been too busy to spy on him herself. Your point?