Moiraine, Siuan, and the Oath

[Skipp]

1 hour ago, Nik said:

 

Everyone believes Siuan hates her guts. They have zero reason to suspect they're plotting together. If she did something sneaky, they expect Siuan to call her on it because even if they can't hear, she certainly can. They probably chalked it up to emotion/reluctance/shame.

 

 

Scenes can be more than one thing. In fact, they HAVE to. If a scene doesn't accomplish multiple things, it gets cut or condensed with something else because there's no time.

 

In this case, the oath scene can be:

1) Setup for future plotlines 

2) A way to demonstrate (show, not tell) how the oaths work to non-readers

3) An emotional moment to deepen characterization and make viewers connect to and care about Siuan and Moiraine even more

4) An upping of the stakes to build tension for the future of their relationship

5) A nice bit of representation for those who will feel seen by it.

 

I would also posit that we don't know how it will impact future events yet because we don't know where they're going with this, so there's no way of knowing if it will make things more difficult, or instead serve the story the show is trying to tell. But it seems logical to me that if they did this, it's because they have plans for it to matter down the road. We don't know what those plans are, but that doesn't mean they don't exist.

 

 

Non-readers don't know that. They have no reason to trust Moiraine when she says the oaths are binding. She could be lying about it all. Therefore another oath on top of it could also be broken if we're not sure the first oath truly is binding the way she says it it. And non-readers also don't know that the first oath affects all future oaths this way.

 

What they did was show us, visually and without a doubt, that the oaths ARE binding and that Moiraine truly can't come back. And also can't lie, which is important, because I bet you we catch an Aes Sedai in a lie in season 2 it will be a hint to the Black Ajah plot. If we hadn't ascertained without a doubt that the first oath is binding, seeing an AS lie later could lead non-readers to conclude the oaths aren't truly binding after all, rather than the conclusion we want, which is that this AS is somehow not bound by the first oath.

Much better said than I was able to.  But yes all of this.

[DojoToad]

7 hours ago, Nik said:

 

Everyone believes Siuan hates her guts. They have zero reason to suspect they're plotting together. If she did something sneaky, they expect Siuan to call her on it because even if they can't hear, she certainly can. They probably chalked it up to emotion/reluctance/shame.

Nevermind that Aes Sedai training weeds out those that can't deal with emotion/reluctance/shame...

[WhiteVeils]

3 hours ago, DojoToad said:

Nevermind that Aes Sedai training weeds out those that can't deal with emotion/reluctance/shame...

You did read the books, right?

[DojoToad]

5 minutes ago, WhiteVeils said:

You did read the books, right?

I did, and the show is not the books.  And we're talking about the show here.

Edited June 7, 2022 by DojoToad

[Nik]

11 hours ago, DojoToad said:

Nevermind that Aes Sedai training weeds out those that can't deal with emotion/reluctance/shame...

 

Where in the show have we seen or been told that Aes Sedai training weeds out those who can't deal with emotion/reluctance/shame?

[Elder_Haman]

It's also plausible that the Hall - conditioned to believe that Siuan and Moiraine hated one another - took the low mumbling as Moiraine being nasty to Siuan and Siuan having too much grace and poise to comment on it.

 

It's not my favorite scene, but it doesn't fundamentally break anything. And it's clear that showing the intensity of that relationship was important to the writers. (It also may set up for dramatic personality changes as a result of stilling...)

[Nik]

Agreed, it was clearly a deliberate choice to have the Oath phrased this way, so I expect they have a payoff in mind for it. Having Moiraine swear to Siuan rather than the Seat also sets up potential ramifications for when Siuan is deposed. Because then Moiraine is no longer beholden to the Amyrlin Seat. I'm 99% sure this will turn out to be important for future plots.

[DojoToad]

12 hours ago, Nik said:

 

Where in the show have we seen or been told that Aes Sedai training weeds out those who can't deal with emotion/reluctance/shame?

All of the scenes/still shots showing Aes Sedai with jutting jaws, ramrod spines, bulging eyes, compressed lips, and shoulders-back heroic poses (usually with multiple Aes Sedai in close proximity) - and that was just the first 4 episodes.  Just my interpretation...

 

😡

[Nik]

5 hours ago, DojoToad said:

All of the scenes/still shots showing Aes Sedai with jutting jaws, ramrod spines, bulging eyes, compressed lips, and shoulders-back heroic poses (usually with multiple Aes Sedai in close proximity) - and that was just the first 4 episodes.  Just my interpretation...

 

😡

 

I mean, that's definitely a possible interpretation, but I'd argue a new viewer would have no reason to make that leap. We've seen plenty of Aes Sedai showing emotion throughout the show, so a casual viewer wouldn't think twice about seeing Moiraine do the same in episode 6.

[DojoToad]

44 minutes ago, Nik said:

 

I mean, that's definitely a possible interpretation, but I'd argue a new viewer would have no reason to make that leap. We've seen plenty of Aes Sedai showing emotion throughout the show, so a casual viewer wouldn't think twice about seeing Moiraine do the same in episode 6.

Sometimes I mix up what AS were like in the books, what AS attempted to project in the books, how they were depicted in the show - and then throw in how I want it to be.  All very confusing...

[WhiteVeils]

It is extra confusing, because it's clear that, in the books, the Aes Sedai were expected to not show emotion, but they definitely HAD emotions and knew the other Aes Sedai had emotions and were watching very carefully all the time for the subtle signs by which other Aes Sedai revealed the emotions they were trying to hide.

[DojoToad]

11 minutes ago, WhiteVeils said:

It is extra confusing, because it's clear that, in the books, the Aes Sedai were expected to not show emotion, but they definitely HAD emotions and knew the other Aes Sedai had emotions and were watching very carefully all the time for the subtle signs by which other Aes Sedai revealed the emotions they were trying to hide.

That is probably what I was keying on - always probing for weakness, secrets, advantage...

[WhiteVeils]

11 minutes ago, DojoToad said:

That is probably what I was keying on - always probing for weakness, secrets, advantage...

They are always probing, but they definitely aren't weeding out those who have emotions like reluctance or shame. Going to the topic. The other Aes Sedai would see Moiraine mumbling her oaths and decide that she was mumbling because of her reluctance or shame.

[Andra]

8 hours ago, WhiteVeils said:

It is extra confusing, because it's clear that, in the books, the Aes Sedai were expected to not show emotion, but they definitely HAD emotions and knew the other Aes Sedai had emotions and were watching very carefully all the time for the subtle signs by which other Aes Sedai revealed the emotions they were trying to hide.

And it's not even so much that they were expected not to show their emotions so much as that they were always supposed to be aware of them and their effects.  Like Bene Gesserit or Vulcans.

The "complete calm" necessary in testing for the Shawl wasn't emotionlessness, it was control.

 

And the Aes Sedai who are described as the most emotionally weak in the books are the ones who struggle the most at that control.

---

My issue with this scene isn't the emotional content, and what the "mumbling" might mean.  It's the fact that the only real reason to have such a public oath is for everyone present to hear it.  To me, it's not believable that in those circumstances the witnesses would ignore not being able to make out the words being spoken.  Particularly the witnesses that forced the punishment in the first place.

 

In the books, a public punishment in the Tower is supposed to be public.  Both visibly and audibly.  As is a public oath.  And this is supposed to be both.

Edited June 8, 2022 by Andra

[Mailman]

On 6/7/2022 at 8:57 AM, Nik said:

 

Non-readers don't know that. They have no reason to trust Moiraine when she says the oaths are binding. She could be lying about it all. Therefore another oath on top of it could also be broken if we're not sure the first oath truly is binding the way she says it it. And non-readers also don't know that the first oath affects all future oaths this way.

 

What they did was show us, visually and without a doubt, that the oaths ARE binding and that Moiraine truly can't come back. And also can't lie, which is important, because I bet you we catch an Aes Sedai in a lie in season 2 it will be a hint to the Black Ajah plot. If we hadn't ascertained without a doubt that the first oath is binding, seeing an AS lie later could lead non-readers to conclude the oaths aren't truly binding after all, rather than the conclusion we want, which is that this AS is somehow not bound by the first oath.

 

But you have achieved showing the audience this in a way that if you think about it makes no sense.

 

The audience maybe unsure about the oath rods abilities but the Aes Sedai most certainly are not unsure about its abilities. It is a pure example of poor world building and poor writing. The Aes Sedai know 100% that the use of the oath rod here is not required.

Edited June 9, 2022 by Mailman

[Nik]

1 hour ago, Mailman said:

 

But you have achieved showing the audience this in a way that if you think about it makes no sense.

 

The audience maybe unsure about the oath rods abilities but the Aes Sedai most certainly are not unsure about its abilities. It is a pure example of poor world building and poor writing. The Aes Sedai know 100% that the use of the oath rod here is not required.

 

That's true in the books but not necessarily in the show. It only doesn't make sense if you apply book knowledge to the show canon. I see several possible options here.

 

1) the first oath doesn't work the same way in the show as it does in the books, i.e. it doesn't make all future oaths automatically binding

 

2) it does work the same way but they don't know it or don't trust it fully so they use the oath rod for an additional layer of security

 

3) they specifically use the oath rod for sentencing because its effect is part of the punishment, like it used to be in the Age of Legends

 

4) it's a ceremonial thing, they don't need it but they do it anyway, like many other Aes Sedai traditions that aren't necessary in the books but they still do them (sometimes without even knowing why)

 

By the way, if we're going to nitpick necessary and unnecessary uses of the oath rod: why do they even swear the second and third oath on the oath rod anyway? Wouldn't the first oath automatically make the next two binding even without use of the rod? Could it be that they just don't care or don't know or would rather do it just to be safe?

Edited June 9, 2022 by Nik

[Mailman]

2 hours ago, Nik said:

 

That's true in the books but not necessarily in the show. It only doesn't make sense if you apply book knowledge to the show canon. I see several possible options here.

 

1) the first oath doesn't work the same way in the show as it does in the books, i.e. it doesn't make all future oaths automatically binding

 

2) it does work the same way but they don't know it or don't trust it fully so they use the oath rod for an additional layer of security

 

3) they specifically use the oath rod for sentencing because its effect is part of the punishment, like it used to be in the Age of Legends

 

4) it's a ceremonial thing, they don't need it but they do it anyway, like many other Aes Sedai traditions that aren't necessary in the books but they still do them (sometimes without even knowing why)

 

By the way, if we're going to nitpick necessary and unnecessary uses of the oath rod: why do they even swear the second and third oath on the oath rod anyway? Wouldn't the first oath automatically make the next two binding even without use of the rod? Could it be that they just don't care or don't know or would rather do it just to be safe?

 

1) Hard to see how it is in any way effective if you can simply lie about something after taking the oath to not tell a lie.

 

2)  If it works the same way it is a redundant layer of security.

 

3) The Aes Sedai are unaware of the negative effects of life shortening that the rod presents. So it is not a punishment, if they are aware of the effects then it is still not a punishment as they are all already under the effects of the rod.

 

4) Possible but not explained no mention of a specific ceremony and seems unlikely.

 

The Aes Sedai oaths are all given at the same time and are part of a set ceremony, they are also not only for Aes Sedai but for the general public to know the rules under which they operate. And no the 2 other oaths are not strictly necessary to be sworn on the rod after the first is sworn on the rod. But again all are sworn at the same time.

 

Its still bizarre that not one Aes Sedai confronted them on the choice of words in either a pro or negative light. If Siuan was to die there would be no way for Moiraine to ever return. Which further undermines the ceremony arguement.

Edited June 9, 2022 by Mailman

[DojoToad]

5 hours ago, Nik said:

 

That's true in the books but not necessarily in the show. It only doesn't make sense if you apply book knowledge to the show canon.

That is part of my frustration with the show - all my book knowledge means squat.  My mind just can't adapt - that's a me problem not a show problem.  Maybe if I hadn't read the books in 20 years the transition would have been easier...

 

Objectively, I still think the show has plenty of problems that would be a turn-off for me.  But I can also accept that at least some of what I don't like is purely subjective.

[Nik]

8 hours ago, Mailman said:

 

1) Hard to see how it is in any way effective if you can simply lie about something after taking the oath to not tell a lie.

 

2)  If it works the same way it is a redundant layer of security.

 

3) The Aes Sedai are unaware of the negative effects of life shortening that the rod presents. So it is not a punishment, if they are aware of the effects then it is still not a punishment as they are all already under the effects of the rod.

 

4) Possible but not explained no mention of a specific ceremony and seems unlikely.

 

The Aes Sedai oaths are all given at the same time and are part of a set ceremony, they are also not only for Aes Sedai but for the general public to know the rules under which they operate. And no the 2 other oaths are not strictly necessary to be sworn on the rod after the first is sworn on the rod. But again all are sworn at the same time.

 

Its still bizarre that not one Aes Sedai confronted them on the choice of words in either a pro or negative light. If Siuan was to die there would be no way for Moiraine to ever return. Which further undermines the ceremony arguement.

 

My point is that we don't know yet how this works in the show. Maybe the Aes Sedai in the show use the oath rod a lot more than they do in the books. Just because we don't know doesn't make it an inconsistency, it just makes it something we don't yet know.

 

As for the wording, I said before that I think it's meant to be low enough that the other Aes Sedai don't hear the change, only the parts they expect. Moiraine's volume goes up at the end when she's done with the switch.

 

In general, when I see something that doesn't match what I know from the books, instead of assuming it's wrong and an inconsistency, I find it more helpful to take it at face value and say, "Okay, this is what's presented to me. What does it mean for the show? What's the story they're trying to tell?"

 

What I see here is a scene where the oath rod is being used to enforce a punishment and the person being punished pretends to mumble in shame in order to subvert the oath to her own ends. It seems perfectly fine and reasonable in its own context.

 

You obviously don't have to agree. These are all interpretations, and we will all interpret scenes differently. (We also all interpret the books differently, it's part of the fun). 

 

I'm just pointing out that there are different possible ways to see it here. They don't make the scene objectively badly written.

[Mailman]

2 hours ago, Nik said:

 

My point is that we don't know yet how this works in the show. Maybe the Aes Sedai in the show use the oath rod a lot more than they do in the books. Just because we don't know doesn't make it an inconsistency, it just makes it something we don't yet know.

 

As for the wording, I said before that I think it's meant to be low enough that the other Aes Sedai don't hear the change, only the parts they expect. Moiraine's volume goes up at the end when she's done with the switch.

 

In general, when I see something that doesn't match what I know from the books, instead of assuming it's wrong and an inconsistency, I find it more helpful to take it at face value and say, "Okay, this is what's presented to me. What does it mean for the show? What's the story they're trying to tell?"

 

What I see here is a scene where the oath rod is being used to enforce a punishment and the person being punished pretends to mumble in shame in order to subvert the oath to her own ends. It seems perfectly fine and reasonable in its own context.

 

You obviously don't have to agree. These are all interpretations, and we will all interpret scenes differently. (We also all interpret the books differently, it's part of the fun). 

 

I'm just pointing out that there are different possible ways to see it here. They don't make the scene objectively badly written.

There is no way that they would allow her to mumble her way through the words on something as important as a oath on that rod, that is just foolish talk. Hell she could have mumbled something that completely made the oath invalid and you expect me to give a pass to the writers who came up with that. I renounce this oath. Four words and the oath is meaningless. Hell she could have mumbled or I after Siuans name and she could have given herself permission to return thats 3 letters.

 

Judkins wanted his faux marriage ceremony and he did not care the damage he did to get it.

 

What is presented to you is a group of woman who are not careful enough to observe the correct wording being used in a absolutely binding oath. Thats a far cry from the Aes Sedai in the books who pride themselves on being able to twist words better than anyone else in the world.

Edited June 9, 2022 by Mailman

[Raal Gurniss]

2 hours ago, Nik said:

 

My point is that we don't know yet how this works in the show. Maybe the Aes Sedai in the show use the oath rod a lot more than they do in the books. Just because we don't know doesn't make it an inconsistency, it just makes it something we don't yet know.

 

As for the wording, I said before that I think it's meant to be low enough that the other Aes Sedai don't hear the change, only the parts they expect. Moiraine's volume goes up at the end when she's done with the switch.

 

In general, when I see something that doesn't match what I know from the books, instead of assuming it's wrong and an inconsistency, I find it more helpful to take it at face value and say, "Okay, this is what's presented to me. What does it mean for the show? What's the story they're trying to tell?"

 

What I see here is a scene where the oath rod is being used to enforce a punishment and the person being punished pretends to mumble in shame in order to subvert the oath to her own ends. It seems perfectly fine and reasonable in its own context.

 

You obviously don't have to agree. These are all interpretations, and we will all interpret scenes differently. (We also all interpret the books differently, it's part of the fun). 

 

I'm just pointing out that there are different possible ways to see it here. They don't make the scene objectively badly written.

I really don't think the show will go into much detail on the issue, likely it will gloss over such things and never refer to it again...

 

It's just time restraint and poor writing...I could be wrong, we shall see.

[Skipp]

1 hour ago, Mailman said:

There is no way that they would allow her to mumble her way through the words on something as important as a oath on that rod, that is just foolish talk. Hell she could have mumbled something that completely made the oath invalid and you expect me to give a pass to the writers who came up with that. I renounce this oath. Four words and the oath is meaningless. Hell she could have mumbled or I after Siuans name and she could have given herself permission to return thats 3 letters.

 

Judkins wanted his faux marriage ceremony and he did not care the damage he did to get it.

 

What is presented to you is a group of woman who are not careful enough to observe the correct wording being used in a absolutely binding oath. Thats a far cry from the Aes Sedai in the books who pride themselves on being able to twist words better than anyone else in the world.

The oath was made to the Amyrlin.  If Moiraine were to start mumbling, lowing her voice the others in attendance could very well assume it was out of shame.  But as long as the Amyrlin hears what she needs to hear then it makes no difference.  Moiraine is shamed publicly and according to most, if not all the Aes Sedai, Moiraine and Suian are on very poor terms.  If Moiraine would try to slip the oaths they would expect the Amyrlin to call her out.

 

Who knows this may be something that leads to Suians downfall.

[Elder_Haman]

2 hours ago, Skipp said:

The oath was made to the Amyrlin.  If Moiraine were to start mumbling, lowing her voice the others in attendance could very well assume it was out of shame.  But as long as the Amyrlin hears what she needs to hear then it makes no difference.  Moiraine is shamed publicly and according to most, if not all the Aes Sedai, Moiraine and Suian are on very poor terms.  If Moiraine would try to slip the oaths they would expect the Amyrlin to call her out.

Correct. And since the existence of the Black is not on anyone's radar at this point, there would be no reason for any Sister to worry overmuch. It will be something that Liandrin can leverage against Siuan later, however, if the writers so choose.

[Nik]

5 hours ago, Mailman said:

There is no way that they would allow her to mumble her way through the words on something as important as a oath on that rod, that is just foolish talk. Hell she could have mumbled something that completely made the oath invalid and you expect me to give a pass to the writers who came up with that. I renounce this oath. Four words and the oath is meaningless. Hell she could have mumbled or I after Siuans name and she could have given herself permission to return thats 3 letters.

 

Judkins wanted his faux marriage ceremony and he did not care the damage he did to get it.

 

What is presented to you is a group of woman who are not careful enough to observe the correct wording being used in a absolutely binding oath. Thats a far cry from the Aes Sedai in the books who pride themselves on being able to twist words better than anyone else in the world.

 

Again, I've already addressed this. If you just scroll up a few posts you'll see it. But thank you @Skipp for reiterating it anyway.

 

If the scene doesn't work for you, that's fine. But you're making wild accusations about Rafe Judkins and his supposed motives that are completely unsubstantiated. There are plenty of possible interpretations for the scene that don't involve a secret agenda to make the Wheel of Time gay at the detriment of storytelling (or whatever it is you think is going on here)

Edited June 9, 2022 by Nik

[Andra]

2 hours ago, Nik said:

There are plenty of possible interpretations for the scene that don't involve a secret agenda to make the Wheel of Time gay at the detriment of storytelling (or whatever it is you think is going on here)

The agenda isn't remotely "secret."  Rafe has stated it publicly on many occasions.  Including when discussing the changes he made to Moiraine and Siuan's relationship.

 

He has also stated that he intended this specific scene to present the equivalent of marriage vows between them.

 

The question is not his intent (which is clear), but whether it harms the story.  If he intends the White Tower - and its Hall - to be in any way as politically astute as in the books, the scene is harms that impression.

 

If the Sitters didn't need to hear the Oath clearly, there was no need for it to be spoken in front of them.  Siuan could have just told them it had been done.  Speaking it in the Hall, while doing so inaudibly and changing the words, would never have been accepted.

Yes, Rafe might have them believe it was inaudible because of shame.  Which doesn't change anything.  Shame is an inherent aspect of any public punishment in the Tower.  It is not something that would ever be accepted as a "dodge."

 

If Rafe intends Aes Sedai to look politically foolish or naive - mission accomplished.