Moiraine, Siuan, and the Oath

[Andra]

53 minutes ago, Deviations said:

This intimated that Moraine is the only blue out in the field so to speak.  Ridiculous.

 

 

It might have made a tiny amount of sense if Moiraine were the head of the Ajah, or at least a Sitter.

We know that neither of those things is true.

[fra85uk]

Tower politics in ROT does not make any sense, the more one thinks about it, the more one can find inconsistencies.

 

 

[Skipp]

For this scene I would say to look at it from a non book readers perspective.  They have seen Moiraine interact with the EF5.  She says she can't lie and then Egwene calls her out on that.  Moiraine has a nice quip about it but does the audience actually trust Moiraine? 

 

By having this scene the audience now knows for a fact that the Oaths are magically binding and can start to trust Moiraine a bit.  This will become a shock when they find out about the Black Ajah. 

 

Now they certainly could have shown this in a different way,  a flashback to Moiraine gaining the shawl, showing some other Accepted being raised.  I think they chose to do it this way for practical reasons such as not having to cast any other actors for a flashback or what have you.  Also it works in showing more of Moiraine's and Suians relationship, which some people seem to dislike but it was a big hit for me and my nonreader friends.

 

It also works to keep Moiraine away from TV and from what Sarah Nakamura has said there is a reason they chose to have Moiraine swear this oath so I will look forward to see why.  Now for several posters here on the forum this is an unacceptable answer because they don't like other changes that have been made or foreshadowing they have included but I can't help in those cases.

[Andra]

28 minutes ago, Skipp said:

For this scene I would say to look at it from a non book readers perspective.  They have seen Moiraine interact with the EF5.  She says she can't lie and then Egwene calls her out on that.  Moiraine has a nice quip about it but does the audience actually trust Moiraine? 

 

By having this scene the audience now knows for a fact that the Oaths are magically binding and can start to trust Moiraine a bit.  This will become a shock when they find out about the Black Ajah. 

 

Now they certainly could have shown this in a different way,  a flashback to Moiraine gaining the shawl, showing some other Accepted being raised.  I think they chose to do it this way for practical reasons such as not having to cast any other actors for a flashback or what have you.  Also it works in showing more of Moiraine's and Suians relationship, which some people seem to dislike but it was a big hit for me and my nonreader friends.

 

It also works to keep Moiraine away from TV and from what Sarah Nakamura has said there is a reason they chose to have Moiraine swear this oath so I will look forward to see why.  Now for several posters here on the forum this is an unacceptable answer because they don't like other changes that have been made or foreshadowing they have included but I can't help in those cases.

 

Except that the audience had already been told that the Oaths were magically binding.  If they didn't believe it before, this won't change that.  Especially since we saw Moiraine and Siuan planning the whole thing out the night before. 

If you want to show something that visually drives home what the Oath Rod does, then do it like the book does.  There are specific physical effects described when someone who swears an oath on it feels the oath "sinking into their bones" that would have been very powerful on screen.  And which wouldn't have required any additional CGI, just good acting.  But all we see is tears that were already there.

 

I honestly don't see how this increases trust in her at all.

If someone in the non-reader audience saw her as the protagonist, they already trusted her.  If they mistrusted her for her deviousness and secrecy, they still do.

Edited January 19, 2022 by Andra

[Lethira the second]

Get on board folks, show Moiraine is omnipresent!

[ForsakenPotato]

To answer the original post about how this might affect things down the line, I interpreted this scene as foreshadowing for a tragic ending for the two of them, rather than a rescue. They might get a mini-reunion on the road or a flashback together, but large part of the lead up to the oath sequence was to drive home that duty trumps love, and they are willing to sacrifice a future together to do what must be done. That was a goodbye, not a see ya later.

 

If Siuan does ever call Moiraine back to the tower, I think she will be deposed and presumed dead (or actually dead) by the time Moiraine gets there, or it will not actually be Siuan calling her back (but Moiraine thinks it is) and that will lead to something bad (maybe Moiraine's downfall from Min's vision).

 

I think both actresses are great and liked them together though, so I wouldn't mind being proven wrong about this!

[Windigo]

It was odd, but then I do think it sets up for when Liandrin/Elaida the next Amyrillian calls Moiraine back to the tower, she will be able to ignore it.   
It also to me was a foreshadowing of the Oaths and Black Ajahs and I wondered if Moiranne was using Messana's trick with what the hall heard. 

[VooDooNut]

10 hours ago, Lethira the second said:

Get on board folks, show Moiraine is omnipresent!

I doubt it, but I enjoyed her moments in season 1 and I'm looking forward to whatever her arc is in season 2. She is a strong focal point in TEOTW book, so I'm not surprised she took center stage in the show for the season 1 equivalent of TEOTW. Plus, she's very talented, so why not make use of her acting ability as much as you can? I wouldn't be surprised if she goes through the doorway at the end of season 2, or very beginning of season 3, but we'll see.

[Cauthonfan4]

3 hours ago, VooDooNut said:

Plus, she's very talented, so why not make use of her acting ability as much as you can?

Because it means rewriting thr story to keep her around?

Because it means shifting the focus to her and the EF5 have gotten terrible development because of it?

 

[Lethira the second]

4 hours ago, VooDooNut said:

I doubt it, but I enjoyed her moments in season 1 and I'm looking forward to whatever her arc is in season 2. She is a strong focal point in TEOTW book, so I'm not surprised she took center stage in the show for the season 1 equivalent of TEOTW. Plus, she's very talented, so why not make use of her acting ability as much as you can? I wouldn't be surprised if she goes through the doorway at the end of season 2, or very beginning of season 3, but we'll see.

I was actually referring to the fact she couldn't have known about the two events Liandrin accused her of not telling the tower because she couldn't be in multiple places at the same time.  -Incidentally that would have been an easy response to the accusation.

[Lethira the second]

9 hours ago, ForsakenPotato said:

To answer the original post about how this might affect things down the line, I interpreted this scene as foreshadowing for a tragic ending for the two of them, rather than a rescue. They might get a mini-reunion on the road or a flashback together, but large part of the lead up to the oath sequence was to drive home that duty trumps love, and they are willing to sacrifice a future together to do what must be done. That was a goodbye, not a see ya later.

 

If Siuan does ever call Moiraine back to the tower, I think she will be deposed and presumed dead (or actually dead) by the time Moiraine gets there, or it will not actually be Siuan calling her back (but Moiraine thinks it is) and that will lead to something bad (maybe Moiraine's downfall from Min's vision).

 

I think both actresses are great and liked them together though, so I wouldn't mind being proven wrong about this!

 

Pure speculation here.

 

Siuan has already caused Moiraine's downfall by sending her to the EOTW where she was stilled/shielded.  I may be giving the writers too much credit but the oath Moiraine swore involved her being called 'home' not back to the tower.  It depends on where she calls home.  Remember her speech just before they reached TV 'home is this saddle, these boots, this brooding man by my side.'  It would be a very Aes Sedai thing to do to twist the words.

 

A simple message for Moiraine to meet Siuan at their love shack would therefore be enough to allow her to return to the Tower if she so chose.

 

That said, I do think they're going to kill Siuan off.  'We always think we have more time' etc. it felt like a good bye.  I also think having someone like Sophie Ockenado as a regular will be seriously expensive and complicated unless they go with a change of actress after she is deposed.

[fra85uk]

In a streamlining perspective, while i like the fall of Siuan and her development from there, killing her would be the correct thing to do.

[Deviations]

If they kill her off, how do the three girls go to Tear hunting the black ajah?

[fra85uk]

47 minutes ago, Deviations said:

If they kill her off, how do the three girls go to Tear hunting the black ajah?

i imagine that she could die after that.

[ForsakenPotato]

If Siuan is executed when she's deposed, we can also skip the washing-Gareth's-underpants romance. I would count that as a blessing.

[VooDooNut]

6 minutes ago, ForsakenPotato said:

If Siuan is executed when she's deposed, we can also skip the washing-Gareth's-underpants romance. I would count that as a blessing.

Given that they expanded more on Moiraine and Siuan's relationship, I'd bet Mat's best horse that the Siuan/Gareth relationship it cut from the show. I'm fine with that. Such a silly relationship for most of the books.

[bryce0110]

3 hours ago, Deviations said:

If they kill her off, how do the three girls go to Tear hunting the black ajah?

The girls get sent on the black ajah hunt before Siuan is deposed. If Siuan were to die, it would likely be when she is deposed.

[Deviations]

I guess I was thinking people were proposing an earlier demise to Suian than in the books, like in the next season.  I may have interpreted those posts incorrectly.

[Dagon Thyne]

The whole point of the scene is to allow Moiraine a reason not to come back.  The other sisters are already suspicious of her travels, and her friendship with Suian.  This kills two birds with one stone.  It gives her an excuse, and also cuts her off from the Blues and their eyes and ears, which many would see as weakening her ability to take action and gives the impression of a break between the two of them.

 

I do see similarities between this and Elaida's proclamation, but not to the extent that it would take anything away.  Elaida's requirement would require an oath of absolute fealtyand defference to her, which would, in effect, make her an absolute authority with even the Hall being required to obey.  She could literally order them to change tower law to put her in power for life if she wanted.  

I especially dont think it takes awa from Dumai Wells, because the reason that was important is because it was an outsider, and a man who can channel doing it.

Edited January 21, 2022 by Dagon Thyne

[Lethira the second]

11 hours ago, Deviations said:

I guess I was thinking people were proposing an earlier demise to Suian than in the books, like in the next season.  I may have interpreted those posts incorrectly.

 

I don't necessarily think they're going to go with the Tower split any earlier than in the books, but I suspect when they do it they will kill Siuan off instead of having her and Leane escape.  The reason being -who they have cast, I cannot see someone of Sophie Okonedo's  calibre sitting on their heels for a couple of years to be a regular in a TV series like this.

[notpropaganda73]

15 minutes ago, Lethira the second said:

I don't necessarily think they're going to go with the Tower split any earlier than in the books, but I suspect when they do it they will kill Siuan off instead of having her and Leane escape.  The reason being -who they have cast, I cannot see someone of Sophie Okonedo's  calibre sitting on their heels for a couple of years to be a regular in a TV series like this.

 

Yes I completely agree, as sad as that makes me as I thought she was wonderful as Siuan, but I don't think we will see all that much of her beyond S3. It could be brought forward, if you consider that we're probably going to see the climax of the third book in S2, the seeds of the White Tower split could (should) be building all through S2. So they could feasibly show the deposition in the finale of S2 or early in S3. 

[Andra]

On 1/20/2022 at 1:58 PM, VooDooNut said:

Given that they expanded more on Moiraine and Siuan's relationship, I'd bet Mat's best horse that the Siuan/Gareth relationship it cut from the show. I'm fine with that. Such a silly relationship for most of the books.

And almost certainly the Moiraine/Thom relationship as well.

 

Since Mat (and Thom) has no longer seen the Tower of Ghenjei from Domon's boat, I suspect that Moiraine never ends up there.  I would predict that Siuan is killed rather than just deposed, and everything she does after that in the books is actually done by Moiraine.  Who is Stilled (if she hasn't already been) at the same time.

 

Which means:

No "unrecognizable" Siuan (since there's no agelessness to be wiped away by Stilling).

No broken oath.

No pursuit of oathbreakers by Bryne. 

Min's viewing of Moiraine's downfall is caused by whoever deposes Siuan ("The Amyrlin in full regalia").

Moiraine then goes to Salidar and spreads the stories about Logain, instead of Siuan doing it.

 

Or if they do want to bring in Bryne as the Little Tower's general, he follows Min and Logaine with Moiraine, rather than with Siuan and Leane. 

 

This allows them to cut out one entire story arc, and combine two others into one.  While eliminating two romantic relationships that have always been unpopular with book fans. 

 

If you're trying to streamline, that's a helluva job in one go.

Edited January 22, 2022 by Andra

[Raal Gurniss]

57 minutes ago, Andra said:

And almost certainly the Moiraine/Thom relationship as well.

 

Since Mat has no longer seen the Tower of Ghenjei from Domon's boat, I suspect that Moiraine never ends up there.  I would predict that Siuan is killed rather than just deposed, and everything she does after that in the books is actually dome by Moiraine.  Who is Stilled (if she hasn't already been) at the same time.

 

Which means:

No "unrecognizable" Siuan (since there's no agelessness to be wiped away by Stilling).

No broken oath.

No pursuit of oathbreakers by Bryne. 

Min's viewing of Moiraine's downfall is caused by whoever deposes Siuan ("The Amyrlin in full regalia").

Moiraine then goes to Salidar and spreads the stories about Logain, instead of Siuan doing it.

 

Or if they do want to bring in Bryne as the Little Tower's general, he follows Min and Logaine with Moiraine, rather than with Siuan and Leane. 

 

This allows them to cut out one entire story arc, and combine two others into one.  While eliminating two romantic relationships that have always been unpopular with book fans. 

 

If you're trying to streamline, that's a helluva job in one go.

That is the way the show is going! 
Makes you wonder why they bothered with WoT when it wouldn’t have been much harder making an original show from scratch! 
 

 

[Gothic Flame]

On 1/20/2022 at 12:06 PM, Deviations said:

If they kill her off, how do the three girls go to Tear hunting the black ajah?

WAFO?

[Gothic Flame]

19 hours ago, Dagon Thyne said:

I especially dont think it takes awa from Dumai Wells, because the reason that was important is because it was an outsider, and a man who can channel doing it.

You actually believe "Dumai's Wells" will happen?

At this point they might refer to "something...something" as "Dumai's Wells" but don't get your hopes up that it will resemble anything like the awesome chapter they'll rip it from.