How different is too different?

[Katherine]

18 minutes ago, Gothic Flame said:

Consider the bragging contest they had in front of Tuon in the last book.

 

 

I love these books. ? 

[Spiritweaver1]

On 1/26/2022 at 4:32 AM, WhiteVeils said:

We don't yet know why Mat left, for starters.  My belief is that he left because Moiraine told him before they went to the waygate that if the Dragon joined the Dark One it would break the world and it would be better if they never went near the place, and any who go who aren't the Dragon would die in either event.  He can't afford to die...he has sisters to take care of.  And he doesn't want to destroy the world.  He has just been facing the evil in himself and is at this point very aware of his darkest side...he was on the verge of caving to the dagger.  He stayed because he thought of he were the Dragon he would cave.  He didn't stop the others from going because he thinks they are heroic and good.  Unlike him.

 

 

From my perspective the problem the show has is that they made a character "evil" who wasn't "evil" in the books.  Book Matt was not evil, ever.  The dagger poisoned his mind and spirit making him suspicious and paranoid. His core self fought it long past where it would have overcome somebody weak.  Think of Frodo and the ring.  Once he was shielded from the daggers influence his  inherent strength of character allowed him to accompany the others on their quest even though he still had the dagger.  Show Matt has no such solid core.  So he turns out to be a coward after he is presumably fully separated from the dagger by the full Aes Sedai team.    I am sure the reason for these changes is that the show is wobbling between the grim dark pattern of GOT and the original source material.  The actor leaving did not help things as I am sure there was late scrambling which the writing staff did not have the chops to handle in a matter that preserved the essence of the character.   For me the great characters in the books are Egwene, Matt and Rand in more or less that order.    

 

Of course I write this as I just started up TGS.  I can feel BS's writing style already although in previous reads I didn't mind it.  All the discussion here will likely make me more analytical which won't help my experience.   The problem with doing the reread is that it makes me long for the adaptation I dreamed of rather than the inexpertly executed based on story we have so far.  In a based on story they could make Matt a Forsaken and it shouldn't bother me.    

 

 

[WhiteVeils]

11 minutes ago, Spiritweaver1 said:

From my perspective the problem the show has is that they made a character "evil" who wasn't "evil" in the books.  Book Matt was not evil, ever.  The dagger poisoned his mind and spirit making him suspicious and paranoid. His core self fought it long past where it would have overcome somebody weak.  

That is still the case. He fought the dagger for far longer than anyone ever could be able to (quote from Moiraine, E6).  We don't know why he didn't go into the ways yet...no one in our cast knows, it has not been revealed.
Of course, we know that it was because the actor left, and there was nothing they could do about it. They had no choice about that.  So what we are left with is our interpretation of why he stayed.
You are choosing to believe that he stayed because he is innately evil and cowardly.  The show didn't make you choose that interpretation, it's just the one you selected.
I am choosing to believe that he stayed because he was intelligent and self-aware enough to understand that, even if Moiraine was right about the prophecy (which he doesn't believe), a Dragon who would cave to the Dark One would destroy the world and that anyone who goes with the Dragon who is not the Dragon will die.  He thinks that if he were the Dragon, given his current condition and what happened, he would likely cave to the Dark One and doom the world, and if he weren't the Dragon, he would die and therefore not be able to take care of his sisters.  None of the other characters have the kind of obligation back in Two Rivers that he has at this point, after all.  In Show, Mat's life isn't his own to throw away.

 

It is my interpretation, but it's no less valid than yours.  Either can be true until we find out, or we see in the show other times Mat exhibits more Character traits which show him leaning more towards one or the other.

If you want the hidden scene that gets him there: Try this. https://archiveofourown.org/works/36340378

[WhiteVeils]

Or  more simply... Moiraine manipulated him into staying just like Rand thought.  To save his life and stop a Dragon she thought of as evil.

[VooDooNut]

1 hour ago, WhiteVeils said:

If you want the hidden scene that gets him there: Try this. https://archiveofourown.org/works/36340378

Great fanfic, @WhiteVeils! I think you captured Moiraine's personality really well in that write-up. I could definitely see this scene fitting into the show.

[Andra]

55 minutes ago, VooDooNut said:

Great fanfic, @WhiteVeils! I think you captured Moiraine's personality really well in that write-up. I could definitely see this scene fitting into the show.

It's certainly not bad, as far as the show goes.

But if anything, it magnifies the problem most readers have with how treats Mat.

 

It explicitly calls him "weak and craven."  And he just isn't.  It says he isn't "brave, self-sacrificing, resilient, intelligent."  When he is in fact ALL of those things.

 

Edited January 27, 2022 by Andra

[VooDooNut]

5 minutes ago, Andra said:

It's certainly not bad, as far as the show goes.

But if anything, it magnifies the problem most readers have with how treats Mat.

 

It explicitly calls him "weak and craven."  And he just isn't.  It says he isn't "brave, self-sacrificing, resilient, intelligent."  When he is in fact ALL of those things.

 

I have no doubt Mat will be redeemed in season 2. And then all his heroic traits and personality will emerge again. I'm really not worried about this at all.

 

 

 

 

...WAFO?

[Andra]

38 minutes ago, VooDooNut said:

I have no doubt Mat will be redeemed in season 2. And then all his heroic traits and personality will emerge again. I'm really not worried about this at all.

 

 

 

 

...WAFO?

I don't have that same confidence.

But I hope you're right.

[WhiteVeils]

4 hours ago, Andra said:

It's certainly not bad, as far as the show goes.

But if anything, it magnifies the problem most readers have with how treats Mat.

 

It explicitly calls him "weak and craven."  And he just isn't.  It says he isn't "brave, self-sacrificing, resilient, intelligent."  When he is in fact ALL of those things.

 

Mat is brave intelligent resilient and self-sacrificing...but Moiraine doesn't know that yet.  She's been with him maybe 3 days...and those days aren't all his best. You may have noticed that this story is Moiraine's POV.  Just because she thinks he is something (and acts accordingly) doesn't mean he is.  For my fiction I thought it was a good dynamic for her to really not think much of Mat early on because it makes the Tower of Genji payoff much better.

Edited January 28, 2022 by WhiteVeils

[Andra]

13 minutes ago, WhiteVeils said:

Mat is.  You may have noticed that this story is Moiraine's POV.  Just because she thinks he is something (and acts accordingly) doesn't mean he is.  For my fiction I thought it was a good dynamic for her to really not think much of Mat early on because it makes the Tower of Genji payoff much better.

Which doesn't excuse the character assassination in the show.

Just because it's Moiraine's opinion rather than an explicit declaration by the show doesn't change that.

By this time in the books, Moiraine absolutely did not think that poorly of him.  She thought he would be a discipline problem - in fact, she never really stopped thinking that - but she didn't remotely think he was "weak and craven," or that he had shown he wasn't "brave, self-sacrificing, resilient or intelligent."

 

Yes, what you wrote fits the way he's treated by the show.  That's the problem.

 

And since Mat was never in a position (on Bayle Domon's boat) in the show to see the Tower of Ghenjei and know where it is, do you really think that's going to happen?

Edited January 28, 2022 by Andra

[WhiteVeils]

In the book, we don't know what Moiraine thinks of any of them. It's not from her POV.  

Character assassination is a lot different than 'a negative opinion'.  But I'll grant you this:  Although the show gives better reasons for Mat's flaws than the book, (bad family, poverty and obligations to his sisters), it does make those flaws more explicit than the book.  If that's character assassination, I'll accept your argument.
As to the other, there's a million ways to get them to Genji.  I'm not worried about it.  The show may or may not get there...It may be cancelled in two seasons, after all (though I hope not).

[Andra]

26 minutes ago, WhiteVeils said:

In the book, we don't know what Moiraine thinks of any of them. It's not from her POV.  

Character assassination is a lot different than 'a negative opinion'.  But I'll grant you this:  Although the show gives better reasons for Mat's flaws than the book, (bad family, poverty and obligations to his sisters), it does make those flaws more explicit than the book.  If that's character assassination, I'll accept your argument.
As to the other, there's a million ways to get them to Genji.  I'm not worried about it.  The show may or may not get there...It may be cancelled in two seasons, after all (though I hope not).

Except that it doesn't "give better reasons for flaws."  It invents flaws that don't exist.

In the books, Mat is not a coward or a thief.  In the show, he's both.   The reasons the show uses to explain his cowardice and thievery don't change the fact that it invented them in the first place.  And that's not "a negative opinion," it's character assassination.

 

And while it's true that we don't know what's inside her head, we do know what she says and how she acts.  And nothing about either of those matches what's in what you wrote.

[WhiteVeils]

Sorry for misfire post.

 

Book Mat does have flaws. He wouldn't be nearly as good a character if he didn't.

 

But you can choose to hate whatever you like. 

[ilovezam]

1 hour ago, WhiteVeils said:

Sorry for misfire post.

 

Book Mat does have flaws. He wouldn't be nearly as good a character if he didn't.

 

But you can choose to hate whatever you like. 

I think what the other guy is saying is that while Book Mat does have flaws, they were not cowardice, thieving, or anything to do with an "inherent darkness". 

[Andra]

1 hour ago, WhiteVeils said:

Sorry for misfire post.

 

Book Mat does have flaws. He wouldn't be nearly as good a character if he didn't.

 

But you can choose to hate whatever you like. 

 

No one said he didn't have flaws.  He's a prankster, a complainer, and perennially incapable of taking things seriously.  He makes decisions that get him into trouble.

 

What he isn't, is any of the things the show paints him as, or that your story has Moiraine believing him to be.  He isn't a coward.  He isn't a thief.  He isn't disloyal.  He isn't unintelligent.

 

I really don't know where you get the idea that people who object to his portrayal in the show think he's a saint in the books.

Edited January 28, 2022 by Andra

[Cauthonfan4]

I also find the wafo argument to be bad at best.

After everything they did in season 1 to our characters, world, story and magic system why would I want to watch season 2?

[Deviations]

19 hours ago, WhiteVeils said:

Of course, we know that it was because the actor left, and there was nothing they could do about it. They had no choice about that. 

So what if the actor left?  Get another actor and keep going.  They don't have to change the damn story accommodate.

[Juan Farstrider]

7 hours ago, Cauthonfan4 said:

I also find the wafo argument to be bad at best.

After everything they did in season 1 to our characters, world, story and magic system why would I want to watch season 2?

Yeah, no to "wafo", more like RaRS: Reread and restore sanity.  There was a post in another thread I think about a version of the first episode's script that showed how Matt got the necklace he had to sneakily sell to Padan Fain, and ... nah. I'm good. No more for me.  I bid the show a kind, but not fond, adieu.

[Humbugged2]

2 hours ago, Deviations said:

So what if the actor left?  Get another actor and keep going.  They don't have to change the damn story accommodate.

 

He quit/was fired  during a pandemic where they lost access to all the prevoius sets and so of course they had to changed it  . They have got a new guy in and he missed 2 episodes

 

So what else could they do ? Forced Barney to come back ?

[Jake Sykwalker]

2 hours ago, Deviations said:

So what if the actor left?  Get another actor and keep going.  They don't have to change the damn story accommodate.

 

There is a show on Netflix called The Movies that Made us.  It can be very interesting.  I watched the episode for Aliens.  How many people know that Michael Biehn wasn't the first pick for Hicks?  James Remar was chosen, but was arrested on drug charges shortly after shooting began.

 

There were scenes in the movie that were still Remar because they had already torn down the set and didn't have time to re-shoot.  The team and editors cleverly hid that fact from audiences.  

 

It was possible to not change things for the actor leaving, but for whatever reason they chose the path they did.  

[Humbugged2]

19 minutes ago, Jake Sykwalker said:

 

There is a show on Netflix called The Movies that Made us.  It can be very interesting.  I watched the episode for Aliens.  How many people know that Michael Biehn wasn't the first pick for Hicks?  James Remar was chosen, but was arrested on drug charges shortly after shooting began.

 

There were scenes in the movie that were still Remar because they had already torn down the set and didn't have time to re-shoot.  The team and editors cleverly hid that fact from audiences.  

 

It was possible to not change things for the actor leaving, but for whatever reason they chose the path they did.  

But he would have to have shot with other actors who were no longer on staff and it was all shot on a lot not out in the country

[SingleMort]

27 minutes ago, Jake Sykwalker said:

 

There is a show on Netflix called The Movies that Made us.  It can be very interesting.  I watched the episode for Aliens.  How many people know that Michael Biehn wasn't the first pick for Hicks?  James Remar was chosen, but was arrested on drug charges shortly after shooting began.

 

There were scenes in the movie that were still Remar because they had already torn down the set and didn't have time to re-shoot.  The team and editors cleverly hid that fact from audiences.  

 

It was possible to not change things for the actor leaving, but for whatever reason they chose the path they did.  

There's a show called Peacemaker where they had to recast a supporting character after they filmed 4 or 5 episodes and had to redo the parts of those episodes I guess covid also caused problems, hence the bad CGI and strange narrative choices in episode 8. 

[Humbugged2]

31 minutes ago, SingleMort said:

There's a show called Peacemaker where they had to recast a supporting character after they filmed 4 or 5 episodes and had to redo the parts of those episodes I guess covid also caused problems, hence the bad CGI and strange narrative choices in episode 8. 

On a set directed by 1 guy

[Gothic Flame]

1 hour ago, SingleMort said:

There's a show called Peacemake

James Gunn?

Dude is tossing everything to the wall and and most of it is sticking.

Wildly entertaining so far.

 

[Wassup]

5 hours ago, Deviations said:

So what if the actor left?  Get another actor and keep going.  They don't have to change the damn story accommodate.

They recast James Rhodes between Iron Man and Iron Man 2. They recast Dumbledore between movies because the first actor passed away. It is easier to do between projects or seasons. 

Soap Operas used to change actors without any breaks. One day it was one actor, the next day a narrator would announce something like, “Mary Sue is now being played by Jane Smith.” at the beginning of the scene and the new person would walk out in character. 

I think based on where they were filming along with local Covid restrictions, they could not replace him in time and/or did not want to try the Soap Opera way.