How different is too different?

[ilovezam]

I've got a really good comment to steal from Reddit too regarding Ep 8's open.

 

Quote

It’s like having a film about the Manhattan project except they never mention being at war. All we see is Oppenheimer saying “I’m gonna nuke Japan, no one has ever levelled a city so quickly before”. Which as I’m sure you agree would be horrific character assassination and grossly inaccurate.

 

[EmreY]

38 minutes ago, ilovezam said:

At any rate, are you genuinely putting forth the position that the character assassination that is show Agelmar is comparable to how Elrond was portrayed in the films?

 

More so.  Which is mostly why he had to be recast.  That was a departure due to creative differences.

 

I could easily hijack this thread, but I'll abstain from further discussion of another IP.  For the next few hours, at least. ? 

[ilovezam]

6 minutes ago, EmreY said:

More so.  Which is mostly why he had to be recast.  That was a departure due to creative differences.

I mean his last appearance was in the Hobbit films, which were dreadful overall, and he didn't want to reprise the role for the Prime series, which we know nothing about regarding faithfulness to source material. None of that is about the LOTR films.

 

Unless you've got some special insider information I have no idea what you're talking about. There's no indication anywhere that even suggests that Hugo Weaving even read the books.

Edited January 24, 2022 by ilovezam

[EmreY]

10 minutes ago, ilovezam said:

I mean his last appearance was in the Hobbit films, which were dreadful overall, and he didn't want to reprise the role for the Prime series, which we know nothing about regarding faithfulness to source material. None of that is about the LOTR films.

 

Unless you've got some special insider information I have no idea what you're talking about. There's no indication anywhere that even suggests that Hugo Weaving even read the books.

 

Sorry, I read Aragorn when it was obviously Elrond.  My issues are not so much with Elrond but with Aragorn, and therefore also how Elrond sees him in the film.

[Spiritweaver1]

On 1/17/2022 at 6:09 AM, Gothic Flame said:

Considering that in the book it was Lan that sneaks into the tent that held Perrin and Egwene when Valda had just dropped a sharp rock to encourage an escape attempt. Lan in a couple of moves knocks Valda out.

Gonna have to call you on this since we are talking about changes.  Valda doesn't appear in the book  in this  sequence.  Child Byar was the guy who dropped the rock.  Geofram Bornhald was commanding the White Cloaks who captured Egwene and Perrin.  Child Bornhald was a much more sympathetic character than Valda who shows up later on in the books.   None the less your story is not the story but it is a story.  

 

[Mrs. Yojimbo]

On 1/22/2022 at 4:40 AM, fra85uk said:

First half Ep. 1

Cold open LTT

 

 

YES YES YES!

[Spiritweaver1]

So another great thread.   After reading all the posts I am going to go back to the original premise.  There is no amount of changes that will make me stop watching the series.  There  is an amount of change that makes me decide that I am not watching an adaptation of the WoT but am watching fan fiction based on the Wheel of Time.  We are already past the break point.  We discussed this point elsewhere already.  But I will restate.  Is Scrooged an adaptation of A Christmas Christmas Carol or fanfic based on?

 

Whether to keep watching or not depends on the execution of their new story.  After E8 I pretty much decided not to watch any more because there is a lot of better TV out there.  However, hope is a precious thing and having read all sorts of excuses for the D execution to date I have decided to give  the show another episode or at most two and then decide.   It is pretty clear to me that there are show staff on this site and hopefully they are taking feedback to the collective.  They would be foolish not to.  Whether that feedback gets integrated into the direction going forward not even the wise can see.

 

I still have hope that the level of this show will at least be equivalent of David Lynch's attempt at Dune.  Of course that was only a couple of hours of time investment.  This one might be an additional 56 hours to see it through plus whatever time I fritter away opining on this site.    I wasn't that thrilled with DL's Dune if you can't tell.   

[Spiritweaver1]

One last thought or two.  There has been considerable discussion on this thread, and others, about opinion.   I will just say that opinion starts as an individual thing.  It may or may not be supported by facts and data.  As we have learned in the social media era pretty soon opinions act as local locus's  for collective opinions to start forming.   At some point those collective opinions seem to solidify into some sort of self reinforcing collective reality which becomes impervious to actual facts and data and logic derived therefrom.  

 

The initial dynamics of this are clearly in action on this site.  For those of an anthropological bent it may be interesting to watch how the discussion progresses between now and the start of season 2.    The key to keeping the considerable repetition of themes over and over from becoming completely boring is to continue working up new threads which represent (slightly) different angles for us to argue our well trodden paths.  IE this is not an adaptation it is a based on story, Rafe is the destroyer of hope, etc.

 

[Deviations]

14 minutes ago, Spiritweaver1 said:

After E8 I pretty much decided not to watch any more because there is a lot of better TV out there.  However, hope is a precious thing and having read all sorts of excuses for the D execution to date I have decided to give  the show another episode or at most two and then decide.  

I'm not sure if I can predict if I'll watch any season 2.  If there is a dearth of new material available, I may be forced to.  At this point, I'm not planning to.  Having the Horn of Valere buried under a chair with seemingly many people aware was a bridge too far for me.

[Andra]

Has anyone seen the map Rafe is using for his geography?  Because it clearly isn't the one that's part of literally every book in the series.

 

I thought I had misheard something my first time through, then on a re-watch this weekend I confirmed what I thought I'd gotten wrong.

 

Sorry for the wall-o-text below, but bear with me.

 

To wit:

In the book, Baerlon is about a week north of Taren Ferry, and that's roughly the same as the distance across the entirety of the Two Rivers.  Shadar Logoth is about another day's journey northeast of Baerlon, along the Arinelle river.  Ghealdan is south of the Two Rivers, with its capitol of Jehannah being at least that same total distance south of the border.  

 

So, roughly four weeks travel between Shadar Logoth and the spot where Logain was captured in the show.  If it could be traveled in a straight line, which it couldn't be.  Because either the entire Two Rivers would be in the way (with both rivers being uncrossable there) or skirting east of the Taren and having to deal with just the White river, but now with Garen's Wall as well.

 

Yet in the show, what seems to be the day after Lan and Moiraine escape Shadar Logoth and Nynaeve catches up to them, Lan is able to head off to a nearby clifftop and actually see the party of Reds and Greens traveling by, and he says they're "three hours to the southwest."

 

In the show, they don't go through Baerlon at all (though it supposedly still exists in Rafeworld somewhere) and Shadar Logoth is only about three days away from Taren Ferry - in some unspecified direction.  But that's still multiple days away from the Andor/Ghealdan border if the map is even partially consistent between the book and the show.

 

I know that Logain probably wasn't captured in the actual capitol of Ghealdan, but the battle where it happened would still have been somewhere in the country.  And I know that the Reds and Greens would have been traveling back toward Tar Valon for at least a few days by that point. 

 

But where in that route would they ever be a few hours southwest of Shadar Logoth?  Without needing to cross at least one major river to get there? 

 

And Whitebridge doesn't answer that last bit, because it's both in the wrong direction and crosses the wrong way.

 

 

Please note: "three hours southwest" would place the party with Logain CLOSER than were our protagonists met the Whitecloaks.

Edited January 24, 2022 by Andra

[Raal Gurniss]

Just now, Andra said:

Has anyone seen the map Rafe is using for his geography?  Because it clearly isn't the one that's part of literally every book in the series.

 

I thought I had misheard something my first time through, then on a re-watch this weekend I confirmed what I thought I'd gotten wrong.

 

Sorry for the wall-o-text below, but bear with me.

 

To wit:

In the book, Baerlon is about a week north of Taren Ferry, and that's roughly the same as the distance across the entirety of the Two Rivers.  Shadar Logoth is about another day's journey northeast of Baerlon, along the Arinelle river.  Ghealdan is south of the Two Rivers, with its capitol of Jehannah being at least that same total distance south of the border.  

 

So, roughly four weeks travel between Shadar Logoth and the spot where Logain was captured in the show.  If it could be traveled in a straight line, which it couldn't be.  Because either the entire Two Rivers would be in the way (with both rivers being uncrossable there) or Garen's Wall is there as well.

 

Yet in the show, what seems to be the day after Lan and Moiraine escape Shadar Logoth and Nynaeve catches up to them, Lan is able to head off to a nearby clifftop and actually see the party of Reds and Greens traveling by, and he says they're "three hours to the southwest."

 

I know that Logain probably wasn't captured in the actual capitol of Ghealdan, but the battle where it happened would still have been somewhere in the country.  And I know that the Reds and Greens would have been traveling back toward Tar Valon for at least a few days by that point. 

 

But where in that route would they ever be a few hours southwest of Shadar Logoth?  Without needing to cross at least one major river to get there?

 

And Whitebridge doesn't answer that last bit, because it's both in the wrong direction and crosses the wrong way.

The books don’t really have any worth for him…Not unless he runs out of TP….Some might say he has.

[Juan Farstrider]

10 hours ago, notpropaganda73 said:

 

Honestly I don't really see what your post has to do with my comment. I was talking with someone about how Agelmar was portrayed in the show, nothing about Borderland culture. I don't even understand this idea that the culture has been changed for the show, outside of Agelmar being disrespectful of Moiraine and a couple of people mumbling in the bar scene? How does Shienar not being particularly welcoming to Aes Sedai change anything about them being at the frontline and facing things the wider world does not believe in any more? 

 

I just think for television if you just have a leader who is wise, making no wrong decisions, and respects Aes Sedai, it could be pretty boring. So I understand trying to give Agelmar a different angle for the show and think it'd be more interesting overall if the Borderland leaders weren't all perfect Captains with no flaws. 

 

I also don't really understand the idea that changing Agelmar is "modernising" anything. 

Of course you don't see how his culture has anything with how he'd be portrayed, you're either ignoring it or it doesn't fit how you want to feel about the show. He would not last if he was as he was in the show, no one in his position would, no one there would. 

Was his portrayal realistic considering the realities of the Borderlands? No, absolutely not. Then, why was it changed? To make the show stupid and lame? No, no writer goes in thinking they're using a monkey wrench instead of a pen/quill/keyboard/thumbs on a phone's screen. It was a change that did disregard the simple realities of command in the Borderlands. 

[Juan Farstrider]

17 hours ago, Gothic Flame said:

Consider how Rafe treated the character of Lan. 

No. I can't do that to myself, let alone Lan. Fun fact (not really either but ...) Rafe's Lan has never seen a woman before, and can be easily snuck up on when Rafe needs him to be, breaks up the whole team once Moraine takes ill and needs rest, but he gives one hell of a funeral eulogy. 

[Juan Farstrider]

11 hours ago, Andra said:

 

In that scene, the trolloc is using what you could call a kind of axe.  The head extends almost two feet along the shaft toward the handle, but only sticks out a few inches.  It's definitely not a sword, as described in the book.

 

And incidentally, though a sword can jab, Tam never does so.  He makes a series of fairly shallow slashes, which have little to no effect.   Which is why Rand has to step in and actually stab the damn thing.  Same as Nynaeve.

Thanks, I can't bring myself to go back and re-watch it. Considering how effective Nynaeve's dagger was, Tam should have tried jabbing but blademasters got nothing on wisdoms, and It's not like Tam ever saw a trolloc before. 

[Raal Gurniss]

7 minutes ago, Juan Farstrider said:

No. I can't do that to myself, let alone Lan. Fun fact (not really either but ...) Rafe's Lan has never seen a woman before, and can be easily snuck up on when Rafe needs him to be, breaks up the whole team once Moraine takes ill and needs rest, but he gives one hell of a funeral eulogy. 

Anyone would howl with his pathetic existence.

[Andra]

17 minutes ago, Juan Farstrider said:

Of course you don't see how his culture has anything with how he'd be portrayed, you're either ignoring it or it doesn't fit how you want to feel about the show. He would not last if he was as he was in the show, no one in his position would, no one there would. 

Was his portrayal realistic considering the realities of the Borderlands? No, absolutely not. Then, why was it changed? To make the show stupid and lame? No, no writer goes in thinking they're using a monkey wrench instead of a pen/quill/keyboard/thumbs on a phone's screen. It was a change that did disregard the simple realities of command in the Borderlands. 

 

And Agelmar wasn't just a minimally-competent commander in the Borderlands.  He was one of the four (or five) "Great Captains."

 

If the show is an example of how a great captain does things, the Light has no hope in any battle in any war against the Shadow.

 

His portrayal doesn't just do him a disservice, it does a disservice to all of humanity where military actions are concerned.

Edited January 24, 2022 by Andra

[Andra]

2 minutes ago, Raal Gurniss said:

Anyone would howl with his pathetic existence.

And if you watch the bonus materials for the show, that howl is one of the things Rafe is proudest about with that episode.

?

[VooDooNut]

Yeah, why didn't Lan just throw out a couple sad-face emoticons and call it a day?

 

Actually expressing vulnerable, human emotion? What is this?!

 

...

[Juan Farstrider]

43 minutes ago, Raal Gurniss said:

Anyone would howl with his pathetic existence.

Oh, Rafe is a genius! He wasn't morning a death, not even morning everyone's loss, he was lamenting his life. very deep. 

39 minutes ago, Andra said:

And if you watch the bonus materials for the show, that howl is one of the things Rafe is proudest about with that episode.

?

Right!?!? They dug into many culture's funeral rites, and came up with chest thumping and a single yell. The WoT is a very small set of books, a handful of pages across a couple of novellas really, and they need to stretch it out with filler or they'd have maybe a two episode first season and maybe a half-time commercial to air at the superbowl to tie up loose ends. 

Edited January 24, 2022 by Juan Farstrider
typo ruined a joke, a really good joke too. Admit it, you laughed at the joke at the show's expense.

[Spiritweaver1]

21 minutes ago, Andra said:

 

And Agelmar wasn't just a minimally-competent commander in the Borderlands.  He was one of the four (or five) "Great Captains."

 

If the show is an example of how a great captain does things, the Light has no hope in any battle in any war against the Shadow.

 

His portrayal doesn't just do him a disservice, it does a disservice to all of humanity where military actions are concerned.

Oh another spot to repeat myself.  It wasn't just the commander, it was the entire defensive setup.  The clearly had a structure across the Gap.  They had none of the usual things to defend a shield wall.   That wall should have been able to hold against anything the trollocs had unless Aludra goes to the dark side and provides them fireworks.  Miners might work but that is why you have cavalry in reserve.  It is pretty clear that our writing crew isn't much interested in portraying anything like a realistic battle except by accident. It takes knowledge and expertise, which the source material had.  Of course we can't tap the true source we have to do everything ourselves by hand.  Sigh it is all so difficult.  One works all day to make it beautiful and people come in and complain that the plumbing doesn't work. 

[Spiritweaver1]

12 minutes ago, Juan Farstrider said:

 

Right!?!? They dug into many culture's funeral rites, and came up with chest thumping and a single yell. The WoT is a very small set of books, a handful of pages across a couple of novellas really, and they need to stretch it out with filler or they'd have maybe a two episode first episode and maybe a half-time commercial to air at the superbowl to tie up loose ends. 

Well lets talk about the books now.  RJ was the king of filler.  Yikes.  There is probably half a book worth of text describing clothes of various people.  This is why I still rank TLOTR as the greatest fantasy.  There are whole books which seem to me to be mostly filler.  Endless descriptions of clothes, furnishings, surroundings, etc with no real plot advancement.  That was/is one of my hopes for the show that they could cut that out and get to the heart of the story.   For example the three books where Perrin tries to rescue Faile, the Salidar slog and the Elayne crushing her rivals for the crown.   4 episodes tops.

[Gothic Flame]

1 hour ago, Spiritweaver1 said:

Gonna have to call you on this since we are talking about changes.  Valda doesn't appear in the book  in this  sequence.  Child Byar was the guy who dropped the rock.  Geofram Bornhald was commanding the White Cloaks who captured Egwene and Perrin.  Child Bornhald was a much more sympathetic character than Valda who shows up later on in the books.   None the less your story is not the story but it is a story.  

 

Already noted by Andra here

[Juan Farstrider]

1 minute ago, Spiritweaver1 said:

Well lets talk about the books now.  RJ was the king of filler.  Yikes.  There is probably half a book worth of text describing clothes of various people.  This is why I still rank TLOTR as the greatest fantasy.  There are whole books which seem to me to be mostly filler.  Endless descriptions of clothes, furnishings, surroundings, etc with no real plot advancement.  That was/is one of my hopes for the show that they could cut that out and get to the heart of the story.   For example the three books where Perrin tries to rescue Faile, the Salidar slog and the Elayne crushing her rivals for the crown.   4 episodes tops.

Yes, 100%

I did not think adapting the books to the screen, story-wise not special effects, would be tough because he spends a lot of pages on describing rugs and things that are dealt with in a literal instant on screen. 

I don't see all the named characters as a problem (except that would get an actor paid more I think), or as filler, because I see them as part of the pattern that in the end wins over the dark one. I just want to think that everyone one mattered (I won't go as far as to say every 'thing' though.)

[Spiritweaver1]

On 1/22/2022 at 1:06 AM, fra85uk said:

I would Have done the blood snow scene in parallel with Gitara Moroso foretelling ending up with her and Tigraine, cutting with her and Tigraine Dying at the same time

This in episode 1, after a first cold open with LLT creating Dragonmount

Let's do it.  All we need is IP rights and lots of money.  I have some ideas of my own most of which involve sticking much closer to the source materials.  

[Spiritweaver1]

24 minutes ago, Gothic Flame said:

Already noted by Andra here

Very thorough job. Don't mean to beat a dead trolloc.