How different is too different?

[Andra]

7 hours ago, Ralph said:

Blademaster is a status you only get by killing another blademaster, iirc

 

And only a blademaster has the right to a heronmark sword. 

 

I think I remembered reading somewhere in the books that it could also be granted by the judgment of a group of blademaster peers.  Killing one in combat is just the one way that's never questioned.

 

Something like that must be the case, or there could never be more of them than exist at any arbitrary time.  Or to quote another franchise, "There Can Be Only One."

 

3 hours ago, Ralph said:

If this were true why would everyone meeting Rand assume he is a true blade master. I know Morgase(??) and GB have that conversation in Caemlyn, but still implied it would be unusual

 

But what Bryne says in that conversation is that he's too young to have earned it.  Even though literally everyone in the room (including him) immediately sees Rand as a potential deadly threat as soon as they hear Elaida "whisper" it.

 

And we do know of examples where other characters claimed not to believe he had any right to it, and at least pretended to threaten to take it from him.

Whether they were just bluffing because they were actually afraid of him, we don't know.

 

1 hour ago, fra85uk said:

In fact when he indeed meet another heron mark the guy is all "oh let's see what does it takes to earn the heron mark on this side of the ocean"

 

And he shows him.  Thus earning the heron - finally.

Edited January 23, 2022 by Andra

[Andra]

5 hours ago, SingleMort said:

My problem with the herron being used only as a means to identify Tam is that they show Tam's face immediately after so we would already know it was Tam without the sword. If they had decided to use a different younger actor for Tam in the flashback your point would have made sense but they didn't so showing the sword is a waste of time. 

 

But it does seem as if that's the only thing Rafe is using it for - as if it's Tam's personal sigil, rather than something with an important meaning.  We know Lan sees the mark, and unlike the books, never mentions to Rand that it has any significance at all.

 

Which might be considered a gap in the story if we weren't also missing every bit of him training the Two Rivers folk how to use the weapons that most of them no longer have.

 

In the books, Rand had the sword, Mat had the bow, and Perrin had the axe - the one made by a character that doesn't exist.  He starts off testing them with the bow, and is surprised how well all three of them do.  In the show, no one but Rand had anything more than a belt knife.  And Rand had both the sword and the bow.  And Lan never even tries to train any of them.

[Juan Farstrider]

On 1/17/2022 at 10:12 AM, notpropaganda73 said:

 

I think it makes for a more interesting dynamic if the Borderlanders are not a monolith of wise leaders who are always respectful of Aes Sedai with no flaws in terms of leadership.

The Borderlands do not have those traits because RJ pulled them out of a bag and placed them randomly on the Boarderlands. They are on the frontlines facing things regularly that the rest of the word does not know even exists anymore. It is very much like disciplined armies or  portions of armies that are tested by reality and they facing things vs cream puffs everywhere else. RJ got that right, Rafe either didn't think about it, or dismissed it in order to modernize it for an audience that similarly has no reason to consider why the Borderlands were different culturally. 

[ilovezam]

6 hours ago, Ralph said:

If this were true why would everyone meeting Rand assume he is a true blade master. I know Morgase(??) and GB have that conversation in Caemlyn, but still implied it would be unusual

Maybe Rand is just so hot to be dishonest. After all everybody who meets Rand wants to bed him!

[Raal Gurniss]

1 minute ago, Juan Farstrider said:

The Borderlands do not have those traits because RJ pulled them out of a bag and placed them randomly on the Boarderlands. They are on the frontlines facing things regularly that the rest of the word does not know even exists anymore. It is very much like disciplined armies or  portions of armies that are tested by reality and they facing things vs cream puffs everywhere else. RJ got that right, Rafe either didn't think about it, or dismissed it in order to modernize it for an audience that similarly has no reason to consider why the Borderlands were different culturally. 

Not sure cultural differences are allowed in the show, little to no difference aside a handful of costumes…The EF5 seem totally nonplussed about anywhere they go despite being sheltered in a supposedly remote village, even they think the culture is rather meh everywhere.

 

 

[Juan Farstrider]

On 1/17/2022 at 11:45 AM, Yojimbo said:

And the idea that Tam would lose to one because he was fighting in close quarters is ridiculous.   I kinda think that blademasters would learn to fight in close quarters, especially I they were going to be involved in a melee, as often happens in wars.   

 

And yet Nynaeve manages to kill one with a knife with no problem whatsoever.   

Tam gains one advantage, in addition to being a blademaster, in close quarters because he's not a large as the trolloc. I don't recall what the show has the trolloc wielding, but I suspect it's a weapon to swung, and it probably is like an ax which does not slice, where as Tam's sword can jab and slice. In close quarters, the skilled human with a sword looking to kill should be better than a much larger trolloc swinging for the fences. But, trollocs can be taken out with a well placed dagger wound, so who really is the blademaster in the show? Our wisdom is also  skilled assassin. 

[Juan Farstrider]

On 1/17/2022 at 11:53 AM, DojoToad said:

Exactly - and would have given non-book readers something to ponder.  Only a warder and Tam could handle trollocs.  What is that symbol on the sword...?

Who didn't read that in the books and realize there was more to Tam than wool?

[Juan Farstrider]

10 minutes ago, Raal Gurniss said:

Not sure cultural differences are allowed in the show, little to no difference aside a handful of costumes…The EF5 seem totally nonplussed about anywhere they go despite being sheltered in a supposedly remote village, even they think the culture is rather meh everywhere.

 

 

I guess when they aged up the cast they also got wi-fi and a solid internet connection too. 

[Raal Gurniss]

3 minutes ago, Juan Farstrider said:

I guess when they aged up the cast they also got wi-fi and a solid internet connection too. 

Quite possibly!

[Andra]

1 hour ago, Raal Gurniss said:

Quite possibly!

 

And condoms.

Lots of condoms.

[Gothic Flame]

1 hour ago, Juan Farstrider said:

The Borderlands do not have those traits because RJ pulled them out of a bag and placed them randomly on the Boarderlands. They are on the frontlines facing things regularly that the rest of the word does not know even exists anymore. It is very much like disciplined armies or  portions of armies that are tested by reality and they facing things vs cream puffs everywhere else. RJ got that right, Rafe either didn't think about it, or dismissed it in order to modernize it for an audience that similarly has no reason to consider why the Borderlands were different culturally. 

Consider how Rafe treated the character of Lan. 

[EmreY]

6 hours ago, Gothic Flame said:

Consider how Rafe treated the character of Lan. 

 

And we're back to this.

 

He made a man out of a beautifully carved wood.

[Andra]

7 hours ago, Juan Farstrider said:

Tam gains one advantage, in addition to being a blademaster, in close quarters because he's not a large as the trolloc. I don't recall what the show has the trolloc wielding, but I suspect it's a weapon to swung, and it probably is like an ax which does not slice, where as Tam's sword can jab and slice. In close quarters, the skilled human with a sword looking to kill should be better than a much larger trolloc swinging for the fences. But, trollocs can be taken out with a well placed dagger wound, so who really is the blademaster in the show? Our wisdom is also  skilled assassin. 

 

In that scene, the trolloc is using what you could call a kind of axe.  The head extends almost two feet along the shaft toward the handle, but only sticks out a few inches.  It's definitely not a sword, as described in the book.

 

And incidentally, though a sword can jab, Tam never does so.  He makes a series of fairly shallow slashes, which have little to no effect.   Which is why Rand has to step in and actually stab the damn thing.  Same as Nynaeve.

[notpropaganda73]

8 hours ago, Juan Farstrider said:

The Borderlands do not have those traits because RJ pulled them out of a bag and placed them randomly on the Boarderlands. They are on the frontlines facing things regularly that the rest of the word does not know even exists anymore. It is very much like disciplined armies or  portions of armies that are tested by reality and they facing things vs cream puffs everywhere else. RJ got that right, Rafe either didn't think about it, or dismissed it in order to modernize it for an audience that similarly has no reason to consider why the Borderlands were different culturally. 

 

Honestly I don't really see what your post has to do with my comment. I was talking with someone about how Agelmar was portrayed in the show, nothing about Borderland culture. I don't even understand this idea that the culture has been changed for the show, outside of Agelmar being disrespectful of Moiraine and a couple of people mumbling in the bar scene? How does Shienar not being particularly welcoming to Aes Sedai change anything about them being at the frontline and facing things the wider world does not believe in any more? 

 

I just think for television if you just have a leader who is wise, making no wrong decisions, and respects Aes Sedai, it could be pretty boring. So I understand trying to give Agelmar a different angle for the show and think it'd be more interesting overall if the Borderland leaders weren't all perfect Captains with no flaws. 

 

I also don't really understand the idea that changing Agelmar is "modernising" anything. 

[ilovezam]

22 minutes ago, notpropaganda73 said:

I also don't really understand the idea that changing Agelmar is "modernising" anything. 

The way in which Agelmar was changed (into a one-dimensional-disrepects-women-and-is-completely-wrong alpha male cliche) is a fairly common trope in entertainment that pushes the whole girl power thing, and given how the characters are treated generally, and Rafe's stated commitment to updating the show for modern feminism, I don't think it's an unfair assumption to make. 

 

There's no time to properly develop a tertiary character's flaws, and rewriting Agelmar this way did not in fact make him more interesting or likeable than book Agelmar.

 

He doesn't have to be infallible, but generally speaking, what's wrong with having a hospitable and competent general fighting on the side of the Light? Do you think making Elrond a douchebag would have made him more interesting of a character? 

 

I think if you wanted to introduce a small amount of conflict, make him have a slightly selfish but ultimately noble agenda. Maybe he wants Moiraine to stay and help him defend his own people, and some doubt is sown as to whether he might hinder our protagonists quests, before he finally lets up. Maybe he's a little stubborn in keeping his sister off the front lines because he's a bit of a old fashioned chauvinist. At least give him a badass moment, give us something good about him. Maybe he sacrifices himself to protect Amalisa, earning her the opportunity to nuke some Trollocs. Something, anything! 

 

There's a large gap between "don't make him look like a complete moron" and "make him look like a flawless faultless saint". 

 

 

Edited January 24, 2022 by ilovezam

[notpropaganda73]

I agree with your points about Agelmar @ilovezam generally, it wasn't well done in the show but I think in general it's low down my list of gripes because of how crap episode 8 was in general - I sort of just gloss over the problems in that episode in my mind and focus on the rest of the season to look for what I think may be more fundamental flaws in the writing. I still think the wider idea of making the Borderlands less welcoming of Aes Sedai, or the generals not being infallible as you say, is more interesting for screen. Like you say there wasn't really time to explore any flaws but I can understand making a change to him, especially if he is being killed off. I think I mentioned before, a possible Denethor moment for him may have helped. 

 

I know we've been over the actual depiction in the show but I didn't really think Agelmar was a douche in the show, but if you look at the episode 7 thread I even comment in there that I must be the only person in the world that didn't think he came across that way ?

 

I think the modernising aspect comes down to a disagreement on how this is being shown in the show which I know we went over a few times re: Agelmar and his sister. It didn't come across as "idiot man is completely wrong and should listen to the woman" to me, but as I say above I know I'm in a minority of one there ha

Edited January 24, 2022 by notpropaganda73

[Gothic Flame]

2 hours ago, EmreY said:

He made a man out of a beautifully carved wood.

Turned the archetype warrior-king into the stereotype "weekend warrior."

[ilovezam]

50 minutes ago, notpropaganda73 said:

I agree with your points about Agelmar @ilovezam generally, it wasn't well done in the show but I think in general it's low down my list of gripes because of how crap episode 8 was in general - I sort of just gloss over the problems in that episode in my mind and focus on the rest of the season to look for what I think may be more fundamental flaws in the writing. I still think the wider idea of making the Borderlands less welcoming of Aes Sedai, or the generals not being infallible as you say, is more interesting for screen. Like you say there wasn't really time to explore any flaws but I can understand making a change to him, especially if he is being killed off. I think I mentioned before, a possible Denethor moment for him may have helped. 

 

I know we've been over the actual depiction in the show but I didn't really think Agelmar was a douche in the show, but if you look at the episode 7 thread I even comment in there that I must be the only person in the world that didn't think he came across that way ?

 

I think the modernising aspect comes down to a disagreement on how this is being shown in the show which I know we went over a few times re: Agelmar and his sister. It didn't come across as "idiot man is completely wrong and should listen to the woman" to me, but as I say above I know I'm in a minority of one there ha

I'm thinking even if it's got nothing to do with the gender stuff, if they had randomly turned Elrond to be a dismissive arrogant twat towards Gandalf and Aragorn for no good reason, it would have really ticked me off too!

[EmreY]

3 hours ago, ilovezam said:

I'm thinking even if it's got nothing to do with the gender stuff, if they had randomly turned Elrond to be a dismissive arrogant twat towards Gandalf and Aragorn for no good reason, it would have really ticked me off too!

 

He was. 

 

 

Is entirely fictitious and goes completely against the grain.  And here too the even more archetypal priest-warrior-king is turned into a questioning romantic.

[Gothic Flame]

10 minutes ago, EmreY said:

 

He was. 

 

 

Is entirely fictitious and goes completely against the grain.  And here too the even more archetypal priest-warrior-king is turned into a questioning romantic.

No. He was bitterly citing his experience with Isildur. And saw the weakness of what he believed to be the best of men. 

Of course, Elves had a history of arrogance. But Elrond, the great-grandson of Luthien, is probably not the example. 

[ilovezam]

21 minutes ago, EmreY said:

 

He was. 

 

 

Is entirely fictitious and goes completely against the grain.  And here too the even more archetypal priest-warrior-king is turned into a questioning romantic.

Oh c'mon. He was dramatically reliving the moment where things could have ended but went all wrong when Isildur failed. In every other scene he was nothing but a polite, gracious host and respectful to all. 

 

Also, neither Gandalf nor Frodo were Men. 

[EmreY]

6 minutes ago, ilovezam said:

Oh c'mon. He was dramatically reliving the moment where things could have ended but went all wrong when Isildur failed. In every other scene he was nothing but a polite, gracious host and respectful to all. 

 

Also, neither Gandalf nor Frodo were Men. 

 

Compare with Book Elrond:

 

Quote

“My son, years will come when hope will fade, and beyond them little is clear to me. And now a shadow lies between us. Maybe, it has been appointed so, that by my loss the kingship of Men may be restored. Therefore, though I love you, I say to you: Arwen Undómiel shall not diminish her life's grace for less cause. She shall not be the bride of any Man less than the King of both Gondor and Arnor. To me then even our victory can bring only sorrow and parting – but to you hope of joy for a while.

 

No need for Gandalf to remind him of his many-times-great-nephew's capabilities.

[ilovezam]

11 minutes ago, EmreY said:

She shall not be the bride of any Man less than the King of both Gondor and Arnor.

This sounds really consistent with "The race of Man is failing, the blood of Numenor is all but spent - its pride and dignity forgotten" from that clip you sent earlier. He's basically saying that most of the race of Man sucks now, and Arwen can only marry that one remaining good one, Aragorn, under whose rule Man would thrive again.

 

At any rate, are you genuinely putting forth the position that the character assassination that is show Agelmar is comparable to how Elrond was portrayed in the films?

Edited January 24, 2022 by ilovezam

[Gothic Flame]

9 minutes ago, EmreY said:

Compare with Book Elrond:

Sounds like a father wanting the best for his daughter.

[JeffTheWoodlandElf]

Not my original content, but I thought it worth a repost.