Sarah Nakamura's Response to Ep 8 Backlash

[fra85uk]

Rafe wanted to do some smoke&mirrors to have fans not rioting before the show and having someone to point and say "look, there is one of YOU consulting us: that's how much we care" was a smart move. She took the job, we do not know what she really did, we only know that the outcome, of which she is not responsable, is (i want to be generous) debatable. 

Honestly i do not think that she could Have an impact on the direction (off a cliff) taken by the show.

I Have come to the conclusion that the current Hollywood level of talent cannot give us a good WoT-show anyway. 

 

Edited January 13, 2022 by fra85uk

[ilovezam]

22 minutes ago, Aimless said:

Sarah is just a consultant with no executive authority whatsoever—for her to be targeted like this is just absurdly disproportional, given her role.

Can't agree there. Most of us have no idea how much sway Sarah actually has over the writing, but she's hired explicitly to be the book lore person, and when said book lore is violated it seems only natural that people direct their ire her way. It's hard to imagine why some of you guys seem to think that people sending her "how can you sleep at night after ruining the show" would have not sent the same things to a man in her role.

 

I remember the book subreddits being exceedingly protective of her at the start, saying that she fought the good fight but had no control, but the court of public opinion quickly turned against her when she started trying to justify changes like the fourth Oath and the Logain seeing Nynaeve channeling stuff on Twitter, and most of her explanations seem pretty hamfisted IIRC.

[dorotea]

I think Sarah is projecting. The fact I find telling is that according to IMDB demographic data ; see here

 

https://www.imdb.com/title/tt7462410/ratings?ref_=tturv_ql_4

 

Male viewers rated the show almost 1 tick out of 10 lower than female ones. And this is true across all ages, but especially prominent for the 45+ ers who I assume , like me read the books and were the fans for 30+ years. Also, this is the group that left the most reviews. IMHO men not liking the silly show more than women has nothing to do with misogyny and everything with Rafe's personal treatment of the original plot and lore - and this is not really much of his fault but rather the whole point of the changes he sold to amazon. They wanted the new GoT that would also be uber progressive, but they did not take into account the historic prevalence of male audience in fantasy shows. The things are changing and IMHO amazon tried to jump the gun and push for Handmaidens Tale in a package of Epic fantasy. What they got in return was a backlash of the core fandom. Sarah once again, is projecting this unfortunate reality onto her experience with the haters.  I do strongly dislike the show, and I have interacted with Sarah on twitter but our few encounters have always been mutually respectful. I personally think she is getting paid well enough for her pains and the unpleasantness is to be expected. And, yes, I am female.

 

[Aimless]

4 minutes ago, ilovezam said:

Can't agree there. Most of us have no idea how much sway Sarah actually has over the writing, but she's hired explicitly to be the book lore person

Her job is to help Rafe, the writers, and the actors map out a reasonable and believable course through a heavily abridged version of a 15-book story cut down to roughly 60 hours. She helps them figure out the repercussions of changes that have to be made for creative or logistic reasons or whatever, or understand characters' insights and motivations. She's not some sort of guardian of the lore like Maria was for Brandon—her job is to help adapt the story.

 

Quote

and when said book lore is violated it seems only natural that people direct their ire her way.

 

Actually, no, I expect literate adults to have a better handle on their tempers, to have a better sense of perspective, and to be more well-socialized overall. 

 

Quote

I remember the book subreddits being exceedingly protective of her at the start, saying that she fought the good fight but had no control, but the court of public opinion quickly turned against her

 

I mean, from my perspective, it's weird that you don't see how weird the behaviour you're describing actually is. A bunch of weird dudes went around acting weirdly possessive of not only the books but also of one of the people working on adapting the books, and then they started trying to punish her with (weird) nerdrage because they felt she'd betrayed them. It's really weird behavior, this amalgamation of creepiness and white knighting and disproportionate anger. 

[JeffTheWoodlandElf]

25 minutes ago, Aimless said:

Sarah is just a consultant with no executive authority whatsoever—for her to be targeted like this is just absurdly disproportional, given her role.

Yes, but Sarah's public presence has also been absurdly disproportional given her role. The showrunners arguably made as big a deal about her involvement as they did Brandon Sanderson's. They definitely made a bigger deal of Sarah's involvement than Harriet's, that's for sure. The public faces of this show were indisputably Rafe and Sarah. 

 

Take into account that 1) Sanderson already had a bunch of goodwill from the fandom for finishing the books and 2) Sanderson has been much more realistic in his opinion of the show and 3) Sanderson's input was in post, commenting on stuff that had already been done. Sarah was there at the ground level, supposedly to keep things in line. Their jobs were totally different. Brandon's job was to offer notes on existing scripts and ideas. Sarah was billed as the safeguard against those scripts and ideas deviating too much. It's no wonder why more blame is being pushed her way than his. 

 

Sarah makes a big deal out of the fact that she isn't a producer. She doesn't make decisions. This is true. 

 

But this is not how her involvement was originally billed. This is 100% backtracking. Leading up to the show's release, she was billed as someone who would be in the writers room to shoot down any idea which fundamentally altered major aspects of the story (i.e. Perrin being a bear brother). Before the show aired, she WAS talked about as if she was going to be an authority with some degree of influence. 

 

It was only after the show aired and people began to notice a certain lack of attention to detail that Sarah began to backtrack and downplay her role. 

 

Is Sarah really the person to blame? No. But the reasons that people perceive her that way are entirely her and Rafe's doing. 

[ilovezam]

7 minutes ago, Aimless said:

Actually, no, I expect literate adults to have a better handle on their tempers, to have a better sense of perspective, and to be more well-socialized overall. 

 

I mean, from my perspective, it's weird that you don't see how weird the behaviour you're describing actually is. A bunch of weird dudes went around acting weirdly possessive of not only the books but also of one of the people working on adapting the books, and then they started trying to punish her with (weird) nerdrage because they felt she'd betrayed them. It's really weird behavior, this amalgamation of creepiness and white knighting and disproportionate anger. 

 

Just to be clear, I'm not saying that the hate-spewing is "normal" at all. All my points were made in reference to your original that they targeted Sarah due to "underlying weird attitudes towards women".

 

So what I'm trying to say is that there's nothing extra unusual about her being targeted that stems from her gender, in that fans would have done the same to a male lore expert. And it would have still been really weird and bad behaviour, as you put it, but I'm not convinced misogyny comes into play here.

Edited January 13, 2022 by ilovezam

[JeffTheWoodlandElf]

21 minutes ago, ilovezam said:

the court of public opinion quickly turned against her when she started trying to justify changes like the fourth Oath and the Logain seeing Nynaeve channeling stuff on Twitter, and most of her explanations seem pretty hamfisted IIRC.

This is exactly what I observed as well. Makes sense. She's being paid to like the show. I'd like the show if I was paid too. 

 

But lots of people turned when it became clear that Sarah's role wasn't really to influence the scripts or protect the worldbuilding. Her real job was to defend the show's stupid writing decisions using pretzel logic on Twitter and then tout her megafan status to invalidate any criticism of the show.

 

That's where she started to lose support. 

[Gothic Flame]

Wait until lotr starts showing.

Whomeverver is in charge of...stuff...lore, directing, writing...will make bookcloaks appear tame and docile if they screw that up.

[ilovezam]

1 minute ago, Gothic Flame said:

Wait until lotr starts showing.

Whomeverver is in charge of...stuff...lore, directing, writing...will make bookcloaks appear tame and docile if they screw that up.

Man I grew up with LOTR and I would hate the "lore guy" so, so much, female or male, if the lore is FUBAR'd as it was here. Hopefully not to the extent that I'll be sending hateful DMs, but let it be known I am fully equal opportunity when it comes to this. xD

[Ralph]

2 hours ago, ilovezam said:

Do you have a source on that? Any attempt to Google that just leads back to her response from yesterday, in which she never talks about receiving threats.

https://dragonmount.com/forums/topic/110369-s1e4-the-dragon-reborn/page/37/#comment-3997820

 

[Deviations]

1 hour ago, Aimless said:

for her to be targeted like this is just absurdly disproportional, given her role. Irrespective of the specific content of harrassing communications, the targeting itself may be driven by underlying weird attitudes towards women. 

I think the Japanese have a saying that somehow translates to 'the highest nail get's pounded first'.  She put herself out there.  Way out there.

 

I'm sure all the crazy male fans that are bashing her loved the series but not for the fun banter between strong female and strong male characters.  They only liked the series for the spanking.  I'm sure if that's in S2 or S3, they'll calm down.

[ilovezam]

8 minutes ago, Ralph said:

https://dragonmount.com/forums/topic/110369-s1e4-the-dragon-reborn/page/37/#comment-3997820

 

Thanks, but I wish that guy had a source now. Totally messed up if it's legit though. 

[Ralph]

https://dragonmount.com/forums/topic/111139-lets-talk-about-the-writers/page/2/#comment-4012407

[TheSmurf]

I just think these poephols who go overboard and attack the person and not the show, bugger it for all of us who feel we have valid criticisms. 

 

I have absolutely no doubt that I too would get to the point where, given enough of the trash DM's, I lose track of any genuine stuff. 

 

Those who go beyond impersonal critical thinking and criticism and wish such ill on a person involved in a bloody show (which you can just stop watching and move on with life) are a breed unto their own.

 

I doubt anyone on this forum would be included in that batch, regardless how passionately they might dislike the show.

[EmreY]

50 minutes ago, Gothic Flame said:

Wait until lotr starts showing.

Whomeverver is in charge of...stuff...lore, directing, writing...will make bookcloaks appear tame and docile if they screw that up.

 

I'm not going to watch it.  Isildur apparently has a sister called Carine.  That's enough for me.

Edited January 13, 2022 by EmreY

[fra85uk]

7 minutes ago, EmreY said:

 

I'm not going to watch it.  Isildur apparently has a sister called Carine.  That's enough for me.

Don't worry. He will fridge her to speed up his development

[Jaysen Gore]

19 minutes ago, Chadouken said:

I had no idea people were sending the show runners hate mail and telling them to kill themselves, etc.  That's some bullshit.

To this point, and one that has been raised previously, I agree that it was naive for Sarah to think she wasn't going to get this kind of blowback. Because the reality is this kind of entitled feedback - personal, visceral, violent and way past criticism - from fans is now common in every artform, genre and property. WoT has been moderately bad, LOTR was worse, but Star Wars was way, way, way worse - like hire bodyguards and shrinks worse.  It happens to musicians all the time, as well.

 

Fans think because they love a particular form of art, they are entitled to own that art (that's not MY WoT!), the artist who created it, (finish the damn books, GRRM, you fat ph*ck!!) and other people's interpretations of it. (others shouldn't feel differently about something I love / hate. They should feel exactly the way I do for the reasons I do!!! Losers!!!)

 

Edit; These fans also feel entitled to try and destroy art if is not exactly what they wanted. Either in the hopes that someone else will then do what they would have done, or simply to prove that everyone else shares their opinion, whether they do or not.

 

It's one of the main reasons have no social media presence whatsoever - the combination of group think, anonymity, and "good natured" trolling has lead to a poisonous atmosphere, and an escalation of hostility where people agree on probably 70% of every topic.

 

 

Edited January 13, 2022 by Jaysen Gore

[TheSmurf]

Isildur's parents gave his childhood rings to her, thereby giving reason to his later character trait of hoarding any rings he gets his hands (fingers) on. 

 

Genius. We can now all relate to Isildur, Harrah! 

Edited January 13, 2022 by TheSmurf

[Jaysen Gore]

4 minutes ago, fra85uk said:

Don't worry. He will fridge her to speed up his development

Maybe she'll be found in the snow above Minas Tirith with the sapling growing out of her chest?

 

And seriously? Isildur's in this? I didn't think it was that close to the end of the age.

[EmreY]

More seriously, Tolkien said:

 

Quote

But once upon a time (my crest has long since fallen) I had a mind to make a body of more or less connected legend, ranging from the large and cosmogonic, to the level of romantic fairy-story - the larger founded on the lesser in contact with the earth, the lesser drawing splendour from the vast backcloths – which I could dedicate simply to: to England; to my country... I would draw some of the great tales in fullness, and leave many only placed in the scheme, and sketched. The cycles should be linked to a majestic whole, and yet leave scope for other minds and hands, wielding paint and music and drama. Absurd.

 

If Tolkien himself wanted it, who am I to quibble?

 

Edited January 13, 2022 by EmreY

[AdamA]

53 minutes ago, Ralph said:

https://dragonmount.com/forums/topic/111139-lets-talk-about-the-writers/page/2/#comment-4012407

It's at least heartening that her Twitter mentions now seem to be mostly people saying they support her and it sucks that jackasses drove her off the web for a while.

 

I don't exactly agree with her that episode 8 was some shining pinnacle of great television the crew should be proud of, but very much agree with TheSmurf above that sending barrels of abuse at Sarah and writers just poisons the well, putting them on the defensive and making it less likely they'll respond to, consider, or even see criticism that isn't mean.

[AdamA]

12 minutes ago, EmreY said:

More seriously, Tolkien said:

 

 

If Tolkien himself wanted it, who am I to quibble?

 

I think that's a healthy approach. One thing you can see with these gigantic world-building exercises, probably Tolkien more than anything because of the con-langs with associated mythologies motivating the etymology, we see it takes half a lifetime and usually doesn't start until a writer is fairly well-established and middle-aged already. Jordan didn't even finish his one series. Martin is very unlikely to. These might just need to be treated like the medieval cathedrals of literature. They're multi-lifetime efforts that no one person can complete alone. They made great worlds and it's going to be up to future writers to set more and better stories in those worlds.

 

Though I don't think that means mess with the mainline existing stories.

 

Disney seems to maybe be learning this? They seem to have finally abandoned milking more and more out of the Skywalker family saga and desecrating our memories and are just making interesting extended universe content instead.

[Cauthonfan4]

2 hours ago, ilovezam said:

justify changes like the fourth Oath and the Logain seeing Nynaeve channeling stuff on Twitter

She justified both of those? What the...

 

Look all I know is that if I was the book lore person I would have either quit by now or made it abundantly clear that

1) I fought against big anti lore changes.

2) that I was shot down anyway.

3) that I do not support them.

 

Edited January 13, 2022 by Cauthonfan4

[TheSmurf]

This is all I picture right now ?

[Deviations]

11 minutes ago, Cauthonfan4 said:

She justified both of those? What the...

 

Look all I know is that if I was the book lore person I would have either quit by now or made it abundantly clear that

1) I fought against big anti lore changes.

2) that I was shot down anyway.

3) that I do not support them.

 

I made a similar choice after a company I worked for was acquired by another (Johnson & Johnson).  I was a part of the executive team of the smaller organization and J&J gave me a 'stay' contract with an additional two years pay along with my salary.  I pushed back on their desire to move 300+ positions from full time to part time.  I pushed hard enough that they showed me the door.

 

Just my take, but I think she's greatly enjoyed the boost to her twitter account.  I like Brandon more and more as I see his interviews and on-line interaction.  Down to earth and in it for the story & art.  Everything I see of her has me liking her less and less.  She seems like she's after her 15 minutes.  This may be unfair but I can only judge by the material she's put out there.