How different do you think the show would have been with 10 episodes, and if they had been given a full budget (like GOT season 1 funding) and if Mat hadn't been recast? (SPOILERS)

[Skipp]

25 minutes ago, Katherine said:

As Cadsuane? 

 

I like it! 

 

Though this actress has a beautiful, melodious voice and I would hate to hear it uttering some of Cadsuane's dialogue! 

Agreed on both fronts.  Lezbi Nerdy has mentioned a couple of times how she doesn't want Shohreh Aghdashloo to play the role because she doesn't want to be attracted to Cadsaune.

 

Here is a quick summary of the twitter conversation.

 

https://www.wotseries.com/2021/12/20/actor-shohreh-aghdashloo-in-talks-with-showrunner-rafe-judkins/

[EmreY]

40 minutes ago, Mat's Lost Eyeball said:

You'd think if they were going to show Moghedien here, her design would evoke something spider-like. 

 

On another note, I know I'd registered a long time ago and don't know if I ever posted, but I had no idea what I set my username up to be.  I cracked up when I saw it posted.  Came back around to visit all the discussion regarding the series. 

 

Welcome back, from a newer newbie.  It has been 8 years since you last posted.

[Cauthonfan4]

On 1/3/2022 at 3:33 PM, king of nowhere said:

i still think they'd have included tar valon and not caemlyn, for casting reasons.

 

this is a change that didn't bother me so much. In some ways it makes sense.

 

setting up the potential that the dragon could be a woman?

the 4th oath?

the inconsistency with the power creep?

basically wrecking all the male characters in the show? (Lan complaining about cold water of all things, Jagad basically being a dumb misogynist, The boys getting absolutely minimal development and absolutely no training from Lan, Thom changes?)

the various changes that will impact the story going forward (for example, the Ways requiring magic to use?).

 

these are the changes that bother me.

Edited January 7, 2022 by Cauthonfan4

[Sabio]

10 would have been better but I fear has they of gone 10 episodes half of each episode would have been wasted time.  They didn't have alot of time, but the time they did have there was alot of wasted screen time.

[ArrylT]

On 1/5/2022 at 9:02 AM, Gothic Flame said:

I concur.

There are quality shows doing more for less. The only show I'm aware of costing more is "Mandalorian" at a reported $15mil per episode. And it certainly looks like money well spent.

For those curious I've posted an article listing 16+ tv shows with 10 million per episode budgets on the news articles thread.

[Mat's Lost Eyeball]

2 hours ago, Cauthonfan4 said:

this is a change that didn't bother me so much. In some ways it makes sense.

 

setting up the potential that the dragon could be a woman?

the 4th oath?

the inconsistency with the power creep?

basically wrecking all the male characters in the show? (Lan complaining about cold water of all things, Jagad basically being a dumb misogynist, The boys getting absolutely minimal development and absolutely no training from Lan, Thom changes?)

the various changes that will impact the story going forward (for example, the Ways requiring magic to use?).

 

these are the changes that bother me.

The oath they made Moiraine swear when she was "exiled" ticked me off maybe more than almost anything else.  That's exactly the type of NEW thing that Elaida instituted or wanted to institute that caused outrage against her.

[fra85uk]

A "change" that is more subtle but very very evil by Raginor is in the dialogue between Logain and Moraine. A Bela reaction to who guess what it is.

[ForsakenPotato]

17 minutes ago, Mat's Lost Eyeball said:

The oath they made Moiraine swear when she was "exiled" ticked me off maybe more than almost anything else.  That's exactly the type of NEW thing that Elaida instituted or wanted to institute that caused outrage against her.

I see where you are coming from, but I think there's a distinction that Moiraine was in on it and the shock of the sisters in the room made it clear it wasn't normal procedure. It's also not unheard of in the books for good characters to get others to swear oaths to them -- it happens with Rand and some of the Aes Sedai, Gareth with Siuan and co, and sisters in the tower when they find darkfriends. Not all those instances involve the oath rod, but they are all taken as seriously as if they did.

Edited January 7, 2022 by ForsakenPotato

[Skipp]

41 minutes ago, Mat's Lost Eyeball said:

The oath they made Moiraine swear when she was "exiled" ticked me off maybe more than almost anything else.  That's exactly the type of NEW thing that Elaida instituted or wanted to institute that caused outrage against her.

I think they made this happen because for nonbook readers who didn't trust Moiraine off the bat also wouldn't trust Moiraine when she said that Aes Sedai can't lie.  By showing these audience members that the oaths are magically binding they can be certain of what Moiraine has told them.

 

Now you can argue that they could have written a different scene with Young Moiraine or showing an accepted raised etc..  But this scene got to pull double/triple duty of showing these things along with getting Moiraine out of the tower again.

[VooDooNut]

12 minutes ago, Skipp said:

I think they made this happen because for nonbook readers who didn't trust Moiraine off the bat also wouldn't trust Moiraine when she said that Aes Sedai can't lie.  By showing these audience members that the oaths are magically binding they can be certain of what Moiraine has told them.

 

Now you can argue that they could have written a different scene with Young Moiraine or showing an accepted raised etc..  But this scene got to pull double/triple duty of showing these things along with getting Moiraine out of the tower again.

It also speaks to how imperfect/unreliable the oaths really are, but more so how much faith the characters place on the oaths, which I interpret as a running theme in the series (books and show). Aes Sedai cannot speak a word that is not true, but they can certainly imply for days, to the point that they aren't really speaking truthfulness anyway.

[Jaysen Gore]

1 minute ago, VooDooNut said:

It also speaks to how imperfect/unreliable the oaths really are, but more so how much faith the characters place on the oaths, which I interpret as a running theme in the series (books and show). Aes Sedai cannot speak a word that is not true, but they can certainly imply for days, to the point that they aren't really speaking truthfulness anyway.

It also ties into Egwene's observations about the channellers in other cultures, who aren't sworn to serve, but don't seem to be feared or distrusted (Kin, Wise Ones, Windfinders)

[VooDooNut]

Just wanted to include this here. This is actually exactly where I'm at in my reread ?.

1 hour ago, VooDooNut said:

Robert Jordan's The Path Of Daggers: Chapter 15 Stronger Than Written Law

 

1 hour ago, VooDooNut said:

...I will swear the Three Oaths on the Oath Rod again.”

“Why?” Egwene asked quietly. Siuan had considered lying to her? She would have had her hide for that. But her anger was gone. “I don’t condone lying, Siuan. Not normally. It’s just that sometimes, it really is necessary.” Her time with the Aiel flashed through her mind. “So long as you’re willing to pay for it, anyway. I’ve seen sisters take on penance for smaller things. You are one of the first of a new sort of Aes Sedai, Siuan, free and unbound. I believe you when you say you won’t lie to me.” Or to Lord Bryne? Odd, that. “Why give up your freedom?”

“Give up?” Siuan laughed. “I’ll be giving up nothing.” Her back straightened, and her voice began to gain strength, and then passion. “The Oaths are what make us more than simply a group of women meddling in the affairs of the world. Or seven groups. Or fifty. The Oaths hold us together, a stated set of beliefs that bind us all, a single thread running through every sister, living or dead, back to the first to lay her hands on the Oath Rod. They are what make us Aes Sedai, not saidar. Any wilder can channel. Men may look at what we say from six sides, but when a sister says, ‘This is so,’ they know it’s true, and they trust. Because of the Oaths. Because of the Oaths, no queen fears that sisters will lay waste to her cities. The worst villain knows he’s safe in his life with a sister unless he tries to harm her. Oh, the Whitecloaks call them lies, and some people have strange ideas about what the Oaths entail, but there are very few places an Aes Sedai cannot go, and be listened to, because of the Oaths. The Three Oaths are what it is to be Aes Sedai, the heart of being Aes Sedai. Throw that on the rubbish heap, and we’ll be sand washing away in the tide. Give up? I will be gaining.”

[DaddyFinn]

19 minutes ago, VooDooNut said:

Men may look at what we say from six sides, but when a sister says, ‘This is so,’ they know it’s true, and they trust.

Oh, the arrogance. ?

[expat]

Quote

Does any else get the feeling tha the reason they killed Algamar is because they are dropping Graendal?  His only storyline going forward is him and the other GC being controlled.  No evil blonde Dominatrix, no need for him to live.

Military leader is a very generic title that can be given to anyone.  Since Algamar is not really needed for another 6 seasons, it's cleaner to kill him off now.  The likelihood that the actor would be available then is small, so they would either need to recast the character or give his role to someone else anyway.

[expat]

To follow-up my previous post.  One of the problems with book to screen translation in a long series is the use of minor characters.  In the book it is easy to ignore a character for many books and pick them back up when needed.  In the WOT, there are lots of these characters that only are used every few books.  In a TV series, actor availability for these types of roles makes them very problematical.  You need to use an actor every year to keep them available for filming.  This means that most of these occasional characters have to written as one-time shots or they have to be given a bigger role so you can use them enough to keep them around.

 

Analyzing some of the changes to the series through this lens might give us a better idea of why some of the changes were made.  Algamar and his sister might fit into this limitation.

Edited January 8, 2022 by expat

[flinn]

Pretty sure I read Algemar had already moved on to something else. Instead of replacing the actor, they just killed off the character and they have the next actor/character already set up.

[Guest Cranglevoid]

Professor Nitpicky here: His name is Agelmar, not Algemar or Algamar.

[Scarloc99]

Elyas would not have been in season 1 even with extra time, I imagine he will be in season 2 which to me is so much better. 

In the books pretty much out of nowhere Elyas tells Perrin he can talk to wolves, there is no slow build, no hints or suggestion it comes out of nowhere. The way they have done it in the TV series I much prefer, assuming Elyas is in the show the idea that the wolves bring him to Perrin is a far better idea. 

I also would not have a 2 hour intro and season end, mainly because it would turn casual viewers away. Psycologically there is a big difference between telling someone they have to invest 2 hours in a show and giving them a one hour first episode with a clif hanger that makes them binge the next. I know it makes no sense but it is actually a thing. What I would have done is had episode 1 introduce everyone, had the cloaked figure appear to the boys and then ended it with the trollocs attacking. Next episode you are straight into the fight, I also would have had some interaction with the villagers once they knew there children had to leave and that extra bit of time would have allowed it. 

The remaining time i would have used to just add in extra scenes throughout the season, show Morraine training Egwene more then once and use that to explain a little more about the power. Have Lan spend some time training Rand explaining what the Heron is, have the dead rats happen possibly in a random inn on the journey. I would not have got rid of the steppin story, I loved that nor would I have added in caemlyn or anything like that, if you do that your just cramming more stuff in. I just would have let it all breathe just a little more. 

Matt I wouldn't re cast, I really like this matt, but if the actor was there all 10 episodes I would have had him stabbed by the blade, that foreshadows when he kills Fain (which I really hope happens in season 6 and not at the last battle, give it a proper moment) because you see the blade for him is just a normal wound, where as for anyone else it is insta kill. 

As for Budget, GOT was given about 5-6 million per episode for season 1, allowing for inflation the 10 million Amazon gave WOT is comparable. 

 

[Scarloc99]

On 1/2/2022 at 4:51 AM, Dagon Thyne said:

OK, we know that Amazon limited them to 8 episodes, which forced them to condense A LOT more than they should have needed to.  How do you think they would have done each episode, and the show overall if they had been given 10 episodes?

 

I think that having 8 episodes, but with the season premier and finale being two hours each instead of one hour would have been best.  It would have allowed them to include not only far more detail before and after winternight, and allowed the characters to have a proper level of development and better set of them being forced to leave the two rivers.  I think they would have included Baerlon, and introduced Min there, instead of in Tar Valon.  I doubt they would have gone to Tar Valon at all.  With the extra two hours, and more money, I think they would have included Caemlyn, and introduced Elayne, Gawyn (AKA most hated good guy in all of literature), Galad, Morgause, etc. 

Maybe they could have even had White Bridge include an actual WHITE BRIDGE instead of that run down rickety thing they had in the show.  (If im mistaken, and the village Rand and Mat meet Thom in wasn't White Bridge, please tell me because that really bothered me that they could even be bothered to make the bridge look like it should.  

 

And they also likely would have been able to include several secondary but still important characters like Elias, 

 

And if Im being honest, if they had been given a GOT level budget, I would have loved to see them have a few major names to some of the smaller, but important parts.  Ishy, for example, since he's only going to make a few appearances in the first few seasons, before ding and being recast as Moridin, I would have loved them them to have tried to get someone like Michael Fassbender, or some other A level actor.  Same with Morgause.  She's a small role until much later on.  If they had included Caemlyn, they could have gotten someone like Nicole Kidman.

 

 

 

 

 

Also no in the book Thom is there from the start having been brought into Emonds Field for the festival. I actually liked the Thom introduction, it gave him his own special moment to appear, in the book he really doesn't do much apart from ride with Lan and Morraine and tell stories until the party are all split up. 

[Scarloc99]

On 1/3/2022 at 8:33 PM, king of nowhere said:

i still think they'd have included tar valon and not caemlyn, for casting reasons.

 

that said, we'd have gotten a lot more development for thom, loial, and maybe a less rushed finale. more worldbuilding too; would have liked to spend some more time in the ways

There is a big reason why they included Tar Valon and not Caemlyn, in book 1 you do not learn anything really about the Aes Sedai, given they are such a big part of the story for the TV show it is right that Rafe introduce the tower and the politics of the tower straight away. Caemlyn really is there as a city, it is there as a way to introduce Rand to Elayne but it doesnt actually achieve much in terms of the over story of EOTW that can't be moved to season 2. 

[Scarloc99]

On 1/3/2022 at 9:08 PM, JeffTheWoodlandElf said:

Funny you say "if" WoT had a GoT level budget because season 1 WoT had a higher budget than GoT season 1 and somehow looks significantly worse than a show that's 10 years old haha 

 

Anyway, I actually think that 8 episodes should have worked just fine. 10 would have been ideal, but 8 is plenty. 

 

My Fantasy Rewrite: 

Episode 1: Winternight and leaving Emond's field

Episode 2: Baerlon (Introduce Whitecloaks

Episode 3: Shadar Logoth 

Episode 4: Team is Separated and out on the road. 

Episode 5: Rand and Mat in Caemlyn by themselves. Egwene and Perrin with Whitecloaks. 

Episode 6: Team meets up in Caemlyn and sets off through the Ways

Episode 7: The Ways and Fal Dara. Ends with the Team going off into the Blight. 

Episode 8: Eye of the World and Tarwin's Gap. 

 

I think an extended/two part first episode would have definitely been welcome, but my sense with the series wasn't that 8 episodes was too few. It was that the showrunners wasted so much time on show-original bullcrap that they then had to rush all the stuff that was actually in the books. 

 

However, if you were gonna add two extra episodes, I think expanding on the stuff that happens while the group was separated would have been nice. 

That is all well and good but by the end you have simply remade the fellowship which means you lose a ton of viewers who don't enjoy that kind of fantasy. 

The Aes Sedai need to be introduced properly in season 1, just as they have, the politics of the tower that become such a huge part of the story need to be embedded early on. you don't lose anything by not going to Caemlyn other then showing off a city that set wise you rarely return to. by introducing the white tower and taking the boys there in season 1 you don't have to take them there together in future seasons and can get onto telling the good part of the story that makes it different which is book 3 onwards. 

[Scarloc99]

On 1/4/2022 at 2:41 AM, Jaysen Gore said:

Readers know where the Bore is; Moiraine does not. She must unlearn what she has learned.  All of the Aes Sedai must. The production could have several rationales for their change on this front. 

 

The tsunami could have had a legit military function, if a bad application due to the cliff.  Yeah, alright, it was dumb.

 

There was probably no cavalry usage or melee due at the Gap to Covid. Or the budget went poof because they had to do a CGI blight, and there was no money for the extras with horses. Either way - Covid and Money

 

You're probably 2 seasons too early on her dance scene, and without the slog, she's probably gone less than two years. Less, if they move up the rescue. Or she doesn't fall through - doubtful - then Cadsuane gets replaced, and Mo doesn't go anywhere.

 

Improving the CGI is money.  Oh, and Covid, since they couldn't actually work in professional editing suites for post-production and collaborate to ensure they had the shots they wanted. Or do pick up shots on location. 

 

I am somewhat sympathetic to your frustrations, but it reads to me like you do not believe Rafe and his team have good intentions, or that they were doing what they could in a miserable situation, and that they are willfully trying to destroy your hopes.  If you don't at least give them the benefit of the doubt that they have a plan for the series, you might as well give up now, and just read the books again. Because nothing they do will ever please you. And why would you want to spend a decade with something that makes you miserable?

 

 

The gap is entirely because of Covid, if you look all the arrow slits are handily 2 metres apart, meaning the cast for that scene could be spaced out. Also they had to use clever editing and CGI so as to not show any actual fighting. 

 

I am struggling to understand how people don't get that in the TV show the Aes Sedai know barely anything really, and the reason for this is so the viewer can learn alongside Morraine, I mean Morraine said in season 1 that she didn't trust the prophesies and her last line to Lan in the season is a realisation that she was wrong, this was not the last battle. Everything she knows is wrong which makes me believe it will be her not Rand that drives the efforts of Herid Fel, it makes far more sense for her to go and find him, or replace him and learn the truth of the philosophy leaving notes for Min to pour over once she goes through the door. 

I am starting to get more and more amused at the Rafe and Amazon are out to kill this, yes Amazon spent millions on the TV rights, have paid millions more per episode to film it and are not trying to make a great TV show, that is the thing I think people need to realise, this is a TV show and so, as a result you have to make changes and you have to do things differently. Every scene has a reason for being in the show, 

[Cauthonfan4]

20 minutes ago, Sir_Charrid said:

that is the thing I think people need to realise, this is a TV show and so, as a result you have to make changes and you have to do things differently.

I Completely understand that changes are necessary because its a tv show. i expected changes.

what i didn't expect is.

the complete lack of development of any of the men not named Lan. (srsly, the most developed male in the series so far not named Lan is Stepin).

the complete lack of consistency with the magic system. consistency is a very good thing.

the romances were accelerated and made very ham fisted if you ask me. imagine how much better the payoff would have been with proper buildup.

the degradation of several male characters for who knows why (Mat, Mat's Dad, Jagar, Thom, and even Lan in some ways). I mean look at all the development we get for Egwene and Nynaeve (Especially her). now look at the development of Rand, Mat, and Perrin, and can you honestly tell me they got a fair shake in season 1? They were utterly shoved into the background all season long. 

 

There was NOTHING even close to fair in the treatment the men got compared to women. Imagine if all the characters got the level of development that Nynaeve got in season 1

 

 

Edited January 8, 2022 by Cauthonfan4

[fra85uk]

14 hours ago, fra85uk said:

A "change" that is more subtle but very very evil by Raginor is in the dialogue between Logain and Moraine. A Bela reaction to who guess what it is.

I quote myself. Anyone dares to guess what i am referring to?

[Dagon Thyne]

5 hours ago, Sir_Charrid said:

There is a big reason why they included Tar Valon and not Caemlyn, in book 1 you do not learn anything really about the Aes Sedai, given they are such a big part of the story for the TV show it is right that Rafe introduce the tower and the politics of the tower straight away. Caemlyn really is there as a city, it is there as a way to introduce Rand to Elayne but it doesnt actually achieve much in terms of the over story of EOTW that can't be moved to season 2. 

I was talking about the village where they meet him in the show, not the books.

 

I had the idea that it was supposed to be white bridge, (due to it being referred to as a nearby town earlier in the show, and I was disgruntled that the bridge in the down was so rundown and rickety.  

Edited January 8, 2022 by Dagon Thyne