Foreshadowing ...

[templar7]

Foreshadowing is so amazing when its done right. Did anyone else notice that this reveal from the opening of episode 8 was in fact the same valley from the beginning  of episode 1? Did anyone pick up on anything else?

 

 

[SingleMort]

I agree it was some nice foreshadowing but I also seem to remember that a world war was going on at this point, which had been raging for many years. That all looks a very peaceful place to be in a world where such a terrible conflict is going on, and IMO because of that it also took away that stakes of the conversation that LTT had and made it seem far more causal for something that would literally lead to the breaking of the world. Not that I'm blaming the cool shot for that it's a very nice depiction of the second age but possibly not in entirely the right context.

Edited December 27, 2021 by SingleMort

[templar7]

1 hour ago, SingleMort said:

I agree it was some nice foreshadowing but I also seem to remember that a world war was going on at this point, which had been raging for many years. That all looks a very peaceful place to be in a world where such a terrible conflict is going on, and IMO because of that it also took away that stakes of the conversation that LTT had and made it seem far more causal for something that would literally lead to the breaking of the world. Not that I'm blaming the cool shot for that it's a very nice depiction of the second age but possibly not in entirely the right context.

Ya, me too. I thought the scene itself was way too anticlimactic. 

I mean, one could say that during the last two world wars there were certainly places of safety, great cities that we're never touched by the atrocities. 

But... this was supposed to be the height of the war of the Shadow when the forces of light were pushed to the brink... So I must agree. I just thought it was cool seeing the same place in a different age.

Edited December 27, 2021 by templar7

[SingleMort]

4 hours ago, templar7 said:

Ya, me too. I thought the scene itself was way too anticlimactic. 

I mean, one could say that during the last two world wars there were certainly places of safety, great cities that we're never touched by the atrocities. 

But... this was supposed to be the height of the war of the Shadow when the forces of light were pushed to the brink... So I must agree. I just thought it was cool seeing the same place in a different age.

If the scene/shot and the conversation had happened before the bore was opened that would have been perfectly fine although the conversation would have needed to be changed, maybe do a debate on whether they should try to harvest the energy from the bore.

[Raezold]

Noticed.

So I guess the Breaking wasn't that bad after all. Nothing happened, that's just 3k years of vegetation doing its work.

[Scarloc99]

10 hours ago, SingleMort said:

I agree it was some nice foreshadowing but I also seem to remember that a world war was going on at this point, which had been raging for many years. That all looks a very peaceful place to be in a world where such a terrible conflict is going on, and IMO because of that it also took away that stakes of the conversation that LTT had and made it seem far more causal for something that would literally lead to the breaking of the world. Not that I'm blaming the cool shot for that it's a very nice depiction of the second age but possibly not in entirely the right context.

See I always read the breaking to destroy and almost eradicate pretty much all evidence of the age of legends say the odd artifact. After 3000 years there should not still be ruined skyscrapers and broken buildings. Especially after the whole scale slaughter that is aluded to in the visions .

[WhiteVeils]

There could be a tiny pocket of non-utterly-broken spot somewhere remote.  For example, if these particular buildings are made of Cuendillar.  Lews Therrin's devastation of his home and family didn't even destroy the tapestries.  It all depends on how that particular spot was broken.

[Skipp]

12 hours ago, SingleMort said:

I agree it was some nice foreshadowing but I also seem to remember that a world war was going on at this point, which had been raging for many years. That all looks a very peaceful place to be in a world where such a terrible conflict is going on, and IMO because of that it also took away that stakes of the conversation that LTT had and made it seem far more causal for something that would literally lead to the breaking of the world. Not that I'm blaming the cool shot for that it's a very nice depiction of the second age but possibly not in entirely the right context.

 

Paaran Disen was relavtively untouched by the war except for 1 attack by Ishammael.  The city didn't fall until after the breaking.

 

1 hour ago, Sir_Charrid said:

See I always read the breaking to destroy and almost eradicate pretty much all evidence of the age of legends say the odd artifact. After 3000 years there should not still be ruined skyscrapers and broken buildings. Especially after the whole scale slaughter that is aluded to in the visions .

 

We do see building remnants from the AoL a few times.  Rand an Asmodean theorize that a Building and Water dock resting on a Mountain side could have possibly been Asmodean's birthpalce in FoH .  And there are other examples.  Honestly I just thought it was a cool shot.

[SingleMort]

2 hours ago, Skipp said:

Paaran Disen was relavtively untouched by the war except for 1 attack by Ishammael.  The city didn't fall until after the breaking

My point was they are talking of the need to seal the bore and the importance of that but the peace and tranquility actually undercut that idea. I actually makes it seem there is no need for any drastic action because everything seems fine and the Dark One isn't that big of a threat at all. This is one time where changing something from the books would have benefited the show.

[Skipp]

7 minutes ago, SingleMort said:

My point was they are talking of the need to seal the bore and the importance of that but the peace and tranquility actually undercut that idea. I actually makes it seem there is no need for any drastic action because everything seems fine and the Dark One isn't that big of a threat at all. This is one time where changing something from the books would have benefited the show.

Your point is well taken, the show could have certainly showed that better and I hope we will see a better representation of their desperation going forward.

[WhiteVeils]

The desperation may be a slow reveal. Right now, in season 1, we are all where Moiraine is, from Moiraine's POV.  Even the flashbacks sort of reflect Moiraine's POV.  And Moiraine's POV...right up until that very last moment is "the arrogance"...her own arrogance at believing she knew what she was doing and her own understanding of what happened 3000 years ago, which is entirely wrong.  Right there, at the very end, she had her arrogance slapped back in her face, and she's going to be dealing with the consequences of that and a greater understanding of what she has done, during Season 2.  Thus the block...she needs to have the consequences of the arrogance written on her just as Suian does later.  They aren't bad people...they just think they know what's right and they don't know everything.  To find out Lews Therin was desperate would expose what they 'know' to be right as wrong a little too early.  
I don't know if we will, but Lews Therin has plenty of opportunity to expose his desperation and reasoning later in the series, as more flashbacks (like one set before this one) or to Rand.  

Though that scene was peaceful, nothing tells us what was going on beyond those walls or across the world.

[DigificWriter]

My interpretation is that the show has moved Lews' actions in trying to contain the Dark One for good to before the outbreak of war because attempting to stop a 3000-year cycle of esvalating darkness during an otherwise peaceful period of existence leans into the idea of arrogance much more than an attempt to seal the Dark One in the midst of a war does.

[templar7]

On 12/27/2021 at 9:59 AM, Raezold said:

Noticed.

So I guess the Breaking wasn't that bad after all. Nothing happened, that's just 3k years of vegetation doing its work.

This was before the breaking..

[ArrylT]

On 12/27/2021 at 1:26 PM, Skipp said:

 

Paaran Disen was relavtively untouched by the war except for 1 attack by Ishammael.  The city didn't fall until after the breaking.

 

 

We do see building remnants from the AoL a few times.  Rand an Asmodean theorize that a Building and Water dock resting on a Mountain side could have possibly been Asmodean's birthpalce in FoH .  And there are other examples.  Honestly I just thought it was a cool shot.

The Whitebridge is another example of AoL architecture surviving the breaking.  

[Raezold]

19 hours ago, templar7 said:

This was before the breaking..

 

I'm not referring to the episode 8 flashback obviously.

[Storeebooq]

On 12/27/2021 at 1:29 PM, WhiteVeils said:

The desperation may be a slow reveal. Right now, in season 1, we are all where Moiraine is, from Moiraine's POV.  Even the flashbacks sort of reflect Moiraine's POV.  And Moiraine's POV...right up until that very last moment is "the arrogance"...her own arrogance at believing she knew what she was doing and her own understanding of what happened 3000 years ago, which is entirely wrong.  Right there, at the very end, she had her arrogance slapped back in her face, and she's going to be dealing with the consequences of that and a greater understanding of what she has done, during Season 2.  Thus the block...she needs to have the consequences of the arrogance written on her just as Suian does later.  They aren't bad people...they just think they know what's right and they don't know everything.  To find out Lews Therin was desperate would expose what they 'know' to be right as wrong a little too early.  
I don't know if we will, but Lews Therin has plenty of opportunity to expose his desperation and reasoning later in the series, as more flashbacks (like one set before this one) or to Rand.  

Though that scene was peaceful, nothing tells us what was going on beyond those walls or across the world.

My thoughts too. The desperation and devastation of the One Power, including what the Forsaken's roles were, will be slow reveals as Mori and other characters develop. I am hoping later we'll get the same kind of past memories view that Rand got while amongst the Aeil. 

 

 

[Jsbrads2]

Even if Paaran Disen was perfectly intact, the failed infrastructure could have made it completely inhabitable.

With no way to get food from existent farms, the entire city would collapse, even if every other aspect of the city worked without depending on their version of a power grid, the magic transmission power grid. It could have had a perfect sanitary water collection gravity feed, maintenance-free sewer and storm runoff… no access to food, useless.

It seems like cuellindar has always been small objects, the exceptions Egwene and a couple others able to make something bigger in a reasonable time scale seems to not match history. Cuellindar density may cause it to settle in soil on long time scales, so a house, if needed, would last the period needed for the builder, and a few generations, but may eventually sink.

I don’t recall who was speaking, but even before the Bore, there were all sorts of social ills. They didn’t go into it, but a rigid hierarchy, injustice, corruption, etc. may been involved.

Ancient artifacts like the Pyramids are older than 3000 yrs, one may be 4700 yrs old and they aren’t made out of particularly resilient stone. Many Egyptian artifacts survived in an area there are sandstorms, a fairly corrosive environment. Göbekli Tepe Is far older. Colleseum relatively young. 

Edited December 30, 2021 by Jsbrads2

[templar7]

On 12/29/2021 at 12:24 PM, Raezold said:

 

I'm not referring to the episode 8 flashback obviously.

Sorry, I misunderstood what you meant. You were referring to my post topic. My bad....

So I overlaid  the two images in photoshop as best I could (they're slightly different angles), and there is definitely allot of change other than just vegetation. The largest buildings seem to be thinner shattered husks and the mountain range in the background seems to be much higher.

[templar7]

21 minutes ago, templar7 said:

Sorry, I misunderstood what you meant. You were referring to my post topic. My bad....

So I overlaid  the two images in photoshop as best I could (they're slightly different angles), and there is definitely allot of change other than just vegetation. The largest buildings seem to be thinner shattered husks and the mountain range in the background seems to be much higher.

[Scarloc99]

On 12/27/2021 at 6:26 PM, Skipp said:

 

Paaran Disen was relavtively untouched by the war except for 1 attack by Ishammael.  The city didn't fall until after the breaking.

 

 

We do see building remnants from the AoL a few times.  Rand an Asmodean theorize that a Building and Water dock resting on a Mountain side could have possibly been Asmodean's birthpalce in FoH .  And there are other examples.  Honestly I just thought it was a cool shot.

Re reading the books it is def stated that the breaking re made the world, existing surviving ruins would to my mind be the exception and would not make up entire ruined cities. People in the books generally have no idea what the age of wonder was, an entire city existing where people can get to it fairly easily would change that. It looks cool, it is a cool flash back but undermines the extent of the “breaking of the world”. 

[Ekoile]

Regarding the Breaking, it's like Rand said in episode 8, "it's like puzzle pieces". We are only being given a few pieces at a time, and how, and in what order we get those pieces matters. That is to say, assuming the  conversation, from the flashback referenced at the start of this thread, refers to some kind of preemptive sealing away of the Dark One before the War of Power, while reasonable in isolation I believe to be incorrect. I have evidence.

 

On 12/26/2021 at 7:57 PM, templar7 said:

Foreshadowing is so amazing when its done right.

 

It absolutely is. If we're talking foreshadowing, we also need to address the opening. I believe this is the correct place for this. I am surprised some one else hasn't brought this up. It's in 7 of the 8 episodes. These screen captures are from a youtube video of the opening.

First, note the threads in both the foreground and background, especially going off into the infinite distance. We are looking at The Wheel, in the process of weaving the Age Lace. We are seeing the very fabric of the pattern. Almost after this establishing shot, we get this roughly 5 second sequence.

Here, please note the surface along the bottom of the images. Threads, the Pattern. Note the slight wave, or ripple in the early images, that becomes flat again. 

 

A burst of light, or something, is coming through. Almost as if it were boring a hole. 

 

Also note, what to my eyes appears to be a female humanoid shape, with longish hair and a dress that are both blown back by the disruption. 

 

We are witnessing an event. In the opening credits of season 1.

Edited January 4, 2022 by Ekoile
rephrased for accidental spoilers

[DojoToad]

On 12/27/2021 at 9:59 AM, Raezold said:

Noticed.

So I guess the Breaking wasn't that bad after all. Nothing happened, that's just 3k years of vegetation doing its work.

Exactly.  How did so many buildings manage to stay upright when the crazy men were leveling mountain ranges and moving oceans?

[DojoToad]

On 12/27/2021 at 12:37 PM, WhiteVeils said:

There could be a tiny pocket of non-utterly-broken spot somewhere remote.  For example, if these particular buildings are made of Cuendillar.  Lews Therrin's devastation of his home and family didn't even destroy the tapestries.  It all depends on how that particular spot was broken.

Keep rationalizing.  You may be able to convince yourself that it makes sense...

[Terry05]

3 hours ago, DojoToad said:

Keep rationalizing.  You may be able to convince yourself that it makes sense...

To be fair, if tapestries can survive in the books, you'd expect some structures to survive. However, a whole city remaining relatively intact as depicted in episode 8 is very unlikely given the destruction caused by the male Aes Sedai. 

[WhiteVeils]

Actually, considering the varied ways the power works, I think it's entirely possible a city could remain intact. In fact, we see one that does....picked up and moved to the top of a mountain, but still intact, right down to its docks.  The Power doesn't have to be earthquakes only.  A weave that just kills every living thing in the city, including the channeler is completely likely to leave a city intact, and we know those weaves exist.

Of course it's rationalizing. It's much more rational to say "There could be a rational reason for this thing we see and here's a possible explanation," than it is to say, "There 100% is definitely no rational explanation for what we see and my understanding of what happened in the books absolutely proves that and there's no way I could be wrong or not seeing any possible explanation."

And it's more fun.

Edited January 4, 2022 by WhiteVeils