Mat In Season 1

[Pukel-man]

21 hours ago, Cauthonfan4 said:

Except you know.

When they talk about two rivers folk being in awe of the exotic people with olive skin or dark complexion. Thus making it pretty obvious that the people of two rivers are lighter skinned than that. I would have pegged the 2 rivers as Mediterranean at darkest.

I forget where it appears, somewhere in the first three books, and I don't have a page reference. But the people of Andor are explicitly called light-skinned. Egwene is also explicitly described with white skin elsewhere.

 

This really doesn't matter, I was just responding to a post suggesting that there was racism in talking about the Coplins. It's a point of clarification.

 

As far as the story goes, the only thing it changes is that there's no "blood of Manetheren" and sure enough, that detail that Robert Jordan hit repeatedly throughout the series has been dropped in the show.

[Andra]

1 hour ago, Pukel-man said:

As far as the story goes, the only thing it changes is that there's no "blood of Manetheren" and sure enough, that detail that Robert Jordan hit repeatedly throughout the series has been dropped in the show.

Well, it is mentioned briefly in a couple places.  Sort of.

In the episode 1 cold open when Lan asks her "where next?" Moiraine says they're going to the Two Rivers, where the "Old Blood runs deep."

Then again in episode 2 when she tells the story of the fall of Manetheren, she finishes it with "The Old Blood runs deep in you. Remember that. You'll need it in the days to come."

 

She doesn't specifically call it the "blood of Manetheren," but it's as close to the same thing as the show ever gets.

[KakitaOCU]

The blood of a place that was very cosmopolitan would not need a specific ethnic background.  It's referring to the blood of the people of Manetheren.  If they were not a singular ethnicity then their blood wouldn't be either.

If I were to speak of the blood of Phoenix in the same type of phrasing that would include caucasian, spanish, native america, hispanic...  And that's me just hitting generalities, there are people of most ethnicities here and they go back generations.

[AdamA]

I'm not gonna find it but there's actually a line in either book 3 or 4 that compares Egwene and Elayne and calls them "one dark, one fair." I should have written it down, I guess, but it stood out to me when I was reading these after the casting announcements and all the hubbub. It's the only direct reference of any kind I can recall of Egwene's overall coloring as opposed to her hair and eyes.

[Pukel-man]

1 hour ago, Andra said:

Well, it is mentioned briefly in a couple places.  Sort of.

In the episode 1 cold open when Lan asks her "where next?" Moiraine says they're going to the Two Rivers, where the "Old Blood runs deep."

Then again in episode 2 when she tells the story of the fall of Manetheren, she finishes it with "The Old Blood runs deep in you. Remember that. You'll need it in the days to come."

 

She doesn't specifically call it the "blood of Manetheren," but it's as close to the same thing as the show ever gets.

Agreed, it is mentioned in passing. As opposed to the books, that constantly used "the blood of Manetheren runs strong" as a foundation for many things. We knew this would be de-emphasized in the show, and it was. But it is clearly far less important to the show than a dead warder named Stepin, who has no role in the books whatsoever.

[Skipp]

2 hours ago, AdamA said:

I'm not gonna find it but there's actually a line in either book 3 or 4 that compares Egwene and Elayne and calls them "one dark, one fair." I should have written it down, I guess, but it stood out to me when I was reading these after the casting announcements and all the hubbub. It's the only direct reference of any kind I can recall of Egwene's overall coloring as opposed to her hair and eyes.

There is also a quote early in tEotW that says "Egwene had the same dark colouring as Nynaeve".  Maybe referring to their hair but it doesn't read that way on your first time. 

 

But then in a later book I believe there is a quote about Egwene stating "Her cheeks were paler than snow".  Which shouldn't be possible with how Eladia reacts to the colour of Rands untanned skin.  Nor how dark Egwene tans when she is with the Aiel.

 

Cenn Buie is described as "Dark as an old root". 

 

Ultimately hair/eye colour along with ones dress was more important to RJ's cultures than skin colour..... at least for the Two Rivers folk.

Edited February 10, 2022 by Skipp

[expat]

Quote

Agreed, it is mentioned in passing. As opposed to the books, that constantly used "the blood of Manetheren runs strong" as a foundation for many things. We knew this would be de-emphasized in the show, and it was. But it is clearly far less important to the show than a dead warder named Stepin, who has no role in the books whatsoever.

It was mentioned twice in 8 episodes, with the second mention an elaborate scene taking several minutes of screen time.  For it to count, how many episodes need to mention it and how much screen time should be devoted to repeating it? 

 

Criticizing the show for establishing the lore, but not beating it into the ground seems harsh, especially since this just a throwaway trope (Famous Ancestor - TV Tropes) that is as common and annoying as the fridging trope that many posters complain about.  The Romans conquering the known world 2000 years ago doesn't make today's Italians great warriors.

[Andra]

32 minutes ago, expat said:

It was mentioned twice in 8 episodes, with the second mention an elaborate scene taking several minutes of screen time.  For it to count, how many episodes need to mention it and how much screen time should be devoted to repeating it? 

 

Criticizing the show for establishing the lore, but not beating it into the ground seems harsh, especially since this just a throwaway trope (Famous Ancestor - TV Tropes) that is as common and annoying as the fridging trope that many posters complain about.  The Romans conquering the known world 2000 years ago doesn't make today's Italians great warriors.

Technically, it wasn't mentioned at all.  Which was the point of the comment you quoted.

The mentions that actually appeared were to the "Old Blood" not the "Blood of Manetheren."  In the books, those are not the same thing.  Though they are related.

 

But even assuming the show means the same thing for both terms, it's mentioned twice in two episodes, then never again.  And only one of those times is it actually said to anyone it was referring to.

[Raal Gurniss]

2 hours ago, expat said:

It was mentioned twice in 8 episodes, with the second mention an elaborate scene taking several minutes of screen time.  For it to count, how many episodes need to mention it and how much screen time should be devoted to repeating it? 

 

Criticizing the show for establishing the lore, but not beating it into the ground seems harsh, especially since this just a throwaway trope (Famous Ancestor - TV Tropes) that is as common and annoying as the fridging trope that many posters complain about.  The Romans conquering the known world 2000 years ago doesn't make today's Italians great warriors.

The Stepin episode was overdone though regardless…I suspect it was a filler episode due to Covid and a Cast member leaving…If they had a dozen more episodes or footage I wager that episode would have been a clip show of flashbacks.

[expat]

Quote

But even assuming the show means the same thing for both terms, it's mentioned twice in two episodes, then never again.  And only one of those times is it actually said to anyone it was referring to.

You really going for the "didn't use the exact words 'Blood of Manetheren' " to obfuscate "Old Blood"?

 

Again, how many times should it have been mentioned once you had the long establishing scene in episode 2? What difference would have made to the character's actions in the series if it was constantly repeated? This is a visual media, show don't tell.

 

It will probably come up again in respect to explaining Matt's talking in the old tongue, the number of strong channelers/tar'veren from the TR, Perrin's defense of the TR etc, but these weren't needed in Season 1.

[Andra]

1 hour ago, expat said:

You really going for the "didn't use the exact words 'Blood of Manetheren' " to obfuscate "Old Blood"?

 

Again, how many times should it have been mentioned once you had the long establishing scene in episode 2? What difference would have made to the character's actions in the series if it was constantly repeated? This is a visual media, show don't tell.

 

It will probably come up again in respect to explaining Matt's talking in the old tongue, the number of strong channelers/tar'veren from the TR, Perrin's defense of the TR etc, but these weren't needed in Season 1.

It's not obfuscation, it's the point @Pukel-man was making in the comment you replied to.

 

In the books, "Old Blood" and "Blood of Manetheren" aren't synonyms.  It's certainly possible that Rafe conflated them to simplify things.  It's also possible that he did so for other reasons, like intentionally changing the emphasis.

 

So far, we haven't seen Mat use the Old Tongue.  I don't really have any confidence that we ever will.

[Andra]

19 hours ago, Raal Gurniss said:

The Stepin episode was overdone though regardless…I suspect it was a filler episode due to Covid and a Cast member leaving…If they had a dozen more episodes or footage I wager that episode would have been a clip show of flashbacks.

Unfortunately, I think Rafe intended the Stepin arc to be included from the very beginning.  I don't think it was filler.

[Juan Farstrider]

2 hours ago, Andra said:

Unfortunately, I think Rafe intended the Stepin arc to be included from the very beginning.  I don't think it was filler.

arc seems generous. Momentary blip on the screen, considering the overall story. 

[Andra]

41 minutes ago, Juan Farstrider said:

arc seems generous. Momentary blip on the screen, considering the overall story. 

Well, that too. ?

 

But still, intended from the beginning.

[Pukel-man]

18 hours ago, expat said:

You really going for the "didn't use the exact words 'Blood of Manetheren' " to obfuscate "Old Blood"?

 

Again, how many times should it have been mentioned once you had the long establishing scene in episode 2? What difference would have made to the character's actions in the series if it was constantly repeated? This is a visual media, show don't tell.

 

It will probably come up again in respect to explaining Matt's talking in the old tongue, the number of strong channelers/tar'veren from the TR, Perrin's defense of the TR etc, but these weren't needed in Season 1.

That's my point. The blood of Manetheren is foundational to all those things, but it was excluded from the show (as we knew it would be). It just makes the show less cohesive, less well-developed. That was what really attracted me to the books, the consistency and the thorough development of the world/society/systems of WoT. Rafe loses just about all of it. Rafe's version is much more disjointed, much more ad hoc. It's just different.

 

And as Andra noted, there's a good chance we don't see any of those things.

[KakitaOCU]

1 hour ago, Pukel-man said:

That's my point. The blood of Manetheren is foundational to all those things, but it was excluded from the show

 

But it wasn't excluded.  It just was brought up less than you personally felt it should have been. 

 

For me?  I'm a little tired if bloodline based heroes.  The idea that Mat or Perrin or Egwene are awesome because 2000 years ago their great great etc was from Manetheren is nonsense.   They're awesome because they chose to stand up and do what they did.

 

Can't imagine how changing things from super DNA to personal agency is a bad thing.

[Raal Gurniss]

19 hours ago, Andra said:

Unfortunately, I think Rafe intended the Stepin arc to be included from the very beginning.  I don't think it was filler.

Well…Perhaps it was extended….As filler for covid related issues/cast leaving…Wouldn’t be the first time a show has done something like that and if as you say the arc was a Rafe pet project he would want to extend it further surely.

[Andra]

2 hours ago, Raal Gurniss said:

Well…Perhaps it was extended….As filler for covid related issues/cast leaving…Wouldn’t be the first time a show has done something like that and if as you say the arc was a Rafe pet project he would want to extend it further surely.

No, I really think the Kerene/Stepin story was written in from the beginning as a priority.

If you watch the Behind The Scenes video for those two episodes, he is extremely proud of the work that was done building the details, and even with the difference between the voices in their two funerary rituals.  The high-pitched keening from Alanna during Kerene's burial, and both the Mongolian(?) throat-singing and Lan's yell during Stepin's ceremony.

 

It's certainly true that the nature of the battle with Logain's forces was altered due to Covid, but I think the Kerene/Stepin stuff was written before a single scene in the show was filmed, and was filmed exactly as written.

I don't believe it was extended due to Covid any more than any other scene was.

 

And please note - according to what we have been told, all of that was filmed before any staff left.

[Andra]

4 hours ago, KakitaOCU said:

 

But it wasn't excluded.  It just was brought up less than you personally felt it should have been. 

 

For me?  I'm a little tired if bloodline based heroes.  The idea that Mat or Perrin or Egwene are awesome because 2000 years ago their great great etc was from Manetheren is nonsense.   They're awesome because they chose to stand up and do what they did.

 

Can't imagine how changing things from super DNA to personal agency is a bad thing.

For the same reason ignoring prophecies that are fundamental to the story might be.

Or ignoring characters being reborn with their identities intact might be.

Because the story called for it.

 

Taking out the "significant bloodline" aspect of the story makes it a different story.  Changing which bloodline holds the significance ("Old Blood" =/= "Blood of Manetheren") makes it a different story.

 

Does it make it a different-enough story to matter?  WAFO.

But it IS different.

[KakitaOCU]

18 minutes ago, Andra said:

It's certainly true that the nature of the battle with Logain's forces was altered due to Covid, but I think the Kerene/Stepin stuff was written before a single scene in the show was filmed, and was filmed exactly as written.

I don't believe it was extended due to Covid any more than any other scene was.

Do we know if it affected Ep 4?  I assumed Ep 4 was disorganized and bad because Logain's army was a rag tag nothing.  There was plenty of room for critique, even if you knew where they were trying to aim.

Thought the only battle scenes messed up by COVID were the Ep 7 and 8 stuff.
 

12 minutes ago, Andra said:

Taking out the "significant bloodline" aspect of the story makes it a different story.  Changing which bloodline holds the significance ("Old Blood" =/= "Blood of Manetheren") makes it a different story.

 

Does it make it a different-enough story to matter?  WAFO.

But it IS different.

Agreed on WAFO.  ?

They didn't take it out?  The old blood is mentioned.  I've seen the posts claiming "The Old Blood is different from the Blood of Manetheren"  But I never had that feeling reading the books.  I googled it real fast and am finding several WoT discussions dating back years referring to the Old Blood as being the blood of Manethere.  In fact, the Karaethon Cycle says:

On the slopes of Dragonmount shall he be born,
born of a maiden wedded to no man.
He will be of the ancient blood, and raised by the old blood.
When the winds of Tarmon Gai'don scour the earth,
he will face the Shadow and bring forth Light again in the world.
For he shall come like the breaking dawn,
and shatter the world again with his coming, and make it anew.

So prophecy at least was referring to Manetheren as the old blood.

Edited February 13, 2022 by KakitaOCU

[Andra]

1 hour ago, Andra said:

It's certainly true that the nature of the battle with Logain's forces was altered due to Covid, but I think the Kerene/Stepin stuff was written before a single scene in the show was filmed, and was filmed exactly as written.

I don't believe it was extended due to Covid any more than any other scene was.

 

55 minutes ago, KakitaOCU said:

Do we know if it affected Ep 4?  I assumed Ep 4 was disorganized and bad because Logain's army was a rag tag nothing.  There was plenty of room for critique, even if you knew where they were trying to aim.

Thought the only battle scenes messed up by COVID were the Ep 7 and 8 stuff.

Yes, we do.

After the first Covid shutdown in March of 2020, they resumed filming.  But with restrictions.  Then the big shutdown hit in September of 2020.

Turns out the fight with Logain's forces is what a "socially-distanced" battle looks like. ?

 

I don't think the show intended to imply that Logain's army was a rag-tag nothing, since it tells us he had a year to build it, and we know it had defeated the King's forces, and added the survivors to its number.

 

So even if Logain originally had the equivalent of Masema's Dragonsworn, by this time it had professional commanders.

 

---

And the point about the difference between "Blood of Manetheren" and "Old Blood" isn't that Manetheren's Blood isn't the Old Blood.  It's that it isn't *just* the Old Blood.  In the same way "Italian" =/= "European."  Not that an Italian isn't a European, but that an Italian isn't *just* a European.  Italians have their own character that isn't the same as the rest of Europe.  If a story calls someone an Italian and makes it significant (say because of an Italian's "hot blood") and then an adaptation simply calls them European, it changes what's significant in the story.

 

Manetheren's Blood carries a significance of its own beyond the generic term.

 

Which is why it is mentioned by itself in some places, yet that prophecy says what it does.

 

And incidentally, one reason that prophecy didn't mention the Blood of Manetheren could be because it was written before Manetheren existed.  That was the case with many of the prophecies.

Edited February 13, 2022 by Andra

[Raal Gurniss]

11 hours ago, Andra said:

No, I really think the Kerene/Stepin story was written in from the beginning as a priority.

If you watch the Behind The Scenes video for those two episodes, he is extremely proud of the work that was done building the details, and even with the difference between the voices in their two funerary rituals.  The high-pitched keening from Alanna during Kerene's burial, and both the Mongolian(?) throat-singing and Lan's yell during Stepin's ceremony.

 

It's certainly true that the nature of the battle with Logain's forces was altered due to Covid, but I think the Kerene/Stepin stuff was written before a single scene in the show was filmed, and was filmed exactly as written.

I don't believe it was extended due to Covid any more than any other scene was.

 

And please note - according to what we have been told, all of that was filmed before any staff left.

Well we seem to be at an impasse..

 

I believe in the possibility, you don’t.

 

Think I will end that there.

[Pukel-man]

On 2/12/2022 at 3:18 PM, KakitaOCU said:

 

But it wasn't excluded.  It just was brought up less than you personally felt it should have been. 

 

For me?  I'm a little tired if bloodline based heroes.  The idea that Mat or Perrin or Egwene are awesome because 2000 years ago their great great etc was from Manetheren is nonsense.   They're awesome because they chose to stand up and do what they did.

 

Can't imagine how changing things from super DNA to personal agency is a bad thing.

The prominence of "the old blood" in the books is discarded in the show - mentioned in passing without any significance to the current characters. The difference it makes is that the show is a weaker story without as much development. In the books, there's a reason for those things in the Two Rivers, and the reasons play a part in the story. In the show, it just cuts out part of the story's foundation. Why would TV Bran Al'Vere care to hoist the flag of Manetheren? He's not from there, it means nothing to him or very many of the current Emonds Fielders. Your personal characteristics don't come from the place you live, but the people you come from. It isn't magic dirt, it's "the old blood."

 

You mentioned the Kareathon cycle: that too is cut from the show. I get that they can't include everything. It just makes the show less complete in my mind, a weaker and shallower story.

[Andra]

2 hours ago, Pukel-man said:

The prominence of "the old blood" in the books is discarded in the show - mentioned in passing without any significance to the current characters. The difference it makes is that the show is a weaker story without as much development. In the books, there's a reason for those things in the Two Rivers, and the reasons play a part in the story. In the show, it just cuts out part of the story's foundation. Why would TV Bran Al'Vere care to hoist the flag of Manetheren? He's not from there, it means nothing to him or very many of the current Emonds Fielders. Your personal characteristics don't come from the place you live, but the people you come from. It isn't magic dirt, it's "the old blood."

 

You mentioned the Kareathon cycle: that too is cut from the show. I get that they can't include everything. It just makes the show less complete in my mind, a weaker and shallower story.

I have to disagree with you on a couple of these points.

The Old Blood is mentioned, and with specific reference to our protagonists.  Just not as the Blood of Manetheren.  It isn't mentioned to them more than once so far, but there hasn't really been much opportunity.

It's true that, since they had already left home when it was brought up, it won't motivate actions by other Two Rivers folk in later books when (or if) they happen in the show.  But that's not the same as not mentioning it at all.  Who knows, maybe Verin will give that speech to them?

 

As far as the Karaethon Cycle - it hasn't been cut.  Rand actually picks up a copy and reads its title in the library of the Light's Blessing.  I think it's what he's got in his hand when he meets Loial.  Then he drops it on the floor.

Bear in mind that, at this point in the books, virtually every reference we've heard to the Karaethon Cycle by name had come from Thom talking about what Gleemen do.  All the other talk about it specifically involving Rand doesn't come until after the Stone of Tear.  Which means we've got probably more than a full season before it comes up that way.

Edited February 14, 2022 by Andra

[KakitaOCU]

17 hours ago, Pukel-man said:

Why would TV Bran Al'Vere care to hoist the flag of Manetheren? He's not from there, it means nothing to him or very many of the current Emonds Fielders.

Why would he care in the books at this point either?  You act like it's a deep part of their heritage and culture.  It's not.  It's a story Moraine spins at them when they're going at her as an angry mob.  She shames them into not being brutes and thugs by claiming they come from something noble.  Before that, none of them would have been able to say they were of Manetheren.   

When it's raised later?  It was Verin's suggestion, not some deep seated call of their ancestral binds.