Season 1 Discussion (Full Book Spoilers) v2.1

[Deviations]

1 hour ago, KakitaOCU said:

And this wasn't untrained, this was someone trained but weak wielding Nynaeve and Egwene's strength.

Not trained enough to attain the shawl?  And she can link with untrained?

[Mirefox]

1 minute ago, Deviations said:

Not trained enough to attain the shawl?  And she can link with untrained?

People can spin it however they want and play whatever mental gymnastics they wish but this was asinine and completely undermines all Aes Sedai.  At this point, it seems the only reason anyone who can wield the power needs to be trained is so that they don’t hurt themselves. 

[Weird_Old_Lady]

1 hour ago, KakitaOCU said:

They actually gave us a gauge to read strength in the series.  Best example for Moraine is her vs Logain in Ep 4.  She has a single, fairly thick line of Saidar flowing to her.  I'd judge about half a foot up to a foot diameter.

Now check the fight at the end of Ep 8,  The two nameless ones have maybe wrist thick single strands, Amalisa seems to have 2 about the same.  Putting those 4 together would be comparable to Moraine, though you're welcome to debate since we don't fully understand what the threads signify.

Meanwhile Egwene has 3 threads comparable to Moraine and Nynaeve has 5.  Which at face value puts the two of them together at being somewhere between 4 and 8 times more powerful.  

 

I like you. You should stop by for coffee/tea/cocoa and book talks. 

[KakitaOCU]

21 minutes ago, Deviations said:

Not trained enough to attain the shawl?  And she can link with untrained?

Not strong enough to attain the shawl, doesn't mean they didn't train.  And the book makes it pretty clear that learning to do something involves seeing it done and then maybe practice.  All it would take is for her to have been involved in circles.  Something that Novices and Accepted do in the books.

[Skipp]

Another thing to keep in mind is that when you burn yourself out you can cause a lot of destruction, well beyond what you are normally capable off.  Eldrene wiping Mantheran off the face of the world being a good example.  And while we don't know the strength of Eldrene she comes from an age of stronger Aes Sedai but we don't know her relative strength compared to Nynaeve plus the other 3.

Edited January 19, 2022 by Skipp

[Raal Gurniss]

1 hour ago, KakitaOCU said:

I think people are focusing on the theoretical numbers instead of the actual feat.  Let's talk about that.

The 5 at the end of Episode 8 created a huge storm that brought repeated lightning strikes down in an area.  It was raw destruction without aim or focus.  You wouldn't even have to aim or control it, just build the storm and then let it go.

Comparatively Rand at his most destructive is throwing out constantly opening and shutting gateways that spread and leap about, filaments of fire that extend and maintain hundreds of feat.  

Trying to think of a good real life comparison.  Maybe compare destroying a watermelon with a giant hammer versus taking a rapier and stabbing it repetitively in a pattern until it breaks.  The hammer doesn't take much skill or effort, you have to force it up, then gravity will handle the rest.  The rapier you're constantly thrusting forward, resetting and striking again, moving the aim, controlling where the point goes in a finite control.

Rand creates controlled chaos where he always has the ability to stop what he's doing and where he generally controls where he destroys.  Amalisa and co just unleashed raw devastation in an area and hoped for the best.

So….Which are considered vastly more powerful?

[KakitaOCU]

3 minutes ago, Raal Gurniss said:

So….Which are considered vastly more powerful?

What Rand did requires a ton more ability than what happened at the end of Ep 8.  It's even addressed in one of the books when Egwene is weakened but proceeds to split her weave like 8 ways.

Rand might have only destroyed a similar number of Trollocs at one time, but he did it while not marring or damaging the landscape or destroying everything in sight.

Another comparison, clearing a group of enemy fighters with a grenade or with a sniper rifle.  Both work, but one devastates everything while they other could be clean and precise and only take out the combatants.  The Sniper takes more ability than the grenadier.

[Raal Gurniss]

26 minutes ago, KakitaOCU said:

Not strong enough to attain the shawl, doesn't mean they didn't train.  And the book makes it pretty clear that learning to do something involves seeing it done and then maybe practice.  All it would take is for her to have been involved in circles.  Something that Novices and Accepted do in the books.

Ahh….But why not keep such around to form circles? I mean they could have higher numbers to boost their ranks and not a force anywhere could stand against them…..

[Raal Gurniss]

2 minutes ago, KakitaOCU said:

What Rand did requires a ton more ability than what happened at the end of Ep 8.  It's even addressed in one of the books when Egwene is weakened but proceeds to split her weave like 8 ways.

Rand might have only destroyed a similar number of Trollocs at one time, but he did it while not marring or damaging the landscape or destroying everything in sight.

Another comparison, clearing a group of enemy fighters with a grenade or with a sniper rifle.  Both work, but one devastates everything while they other could be clean and precise and only take out the combatants.  The Sniper takes more ability than the grenadier.

……Regardless…Which would you say is the more powerful in the case at hand?

 

I really don’t understand why you won’t forward a direct opinion…It’s a piece of fiction and doesn’t reflect any real world gender strength, so what does it matter?

 

 

[Ralph]

A few points:

 

1. Surely they must have trained in combat if the Green Ajah exists? 

 

2. Someone said Rand is meant to be stronger than Egwene and Nynaevec ombined. I don't recall a source for this in the books. Egwene and Elayne, yes. 

 

3. In the show M said Amalisa trained for many years, so it doesn't bother me that she knew hwo to link and how to bring lightning. And there is not a question that they should have kept them for linking, because the books criticise the AS for far greater lapses of judgement with regard to who they keep.

 

4. We have Accepted leading circles of Novices in the books in Salidar iirc. 

 

 

To be frank, I really disliked that scene. (The Healing at the end was even worse.) I understand why they wanted to take it from Rand, and that they couldn't think who to give it to, but I agree it was silly. 

 

But I think people who disliked the show for changes are now not willing to consider simple explanations for their queries, because that requires a positive attitude and faith in the creators. Similar inconsistencies in the books would not bother them in the slightest. 

 

 

[KakitaOCU]

12 minutes ago, Raal Gurniss said:

Ahh….But why not keep such around to form circles? I mean they could have higher numbers to boost their ranks and not a force anywhere could stand against them…..

Conceit that they're not full Aes Sedai?  Same reason as in the books.
 

7 minutes ago, Raal Gurniss said:

……Regardless…Which would you say is the more powerful in the case at hand?

 

I really don’t understand why you won’t forward a direct opinion…It’s a piece of fiction and doesn’t reflect any real world gender strength, so what does it matter?

 

Sorry, I wasn't aware I wasn't forwarding a direct opinion.  Rand is stronger than Nynaeve+Egwene.  What he did may have been a similar level of total destruction but the control and precision shows significantly more power.

[Gothic Flame]

1 hour ago, Deviations said:

Not trained enough to attain the shawl?  And she can link with untrained?

Less about training, and more about strength. O...wait, I'm talking about the books. 

[Gothic Flame]

50 minutes ago, Ralph said:

We have Accepted leading circles of Novices in the books in Salidar iirc. 

I don't think so. Despite the extenuating circumstances they did try to keep up the White Tower bit. And novices weren't allowed to touch the source without supervision.

 

53 minutes ago, Ralph said:

Someone said Rand is meant to be stronger than Egwene and Nynaevec ombined. I don't recall a source for this in the books. Egwene and Elayne, yes. 

It was described that they felt like kittens caught in the teeth of a hound. Pretty descriptive of Rand's strength. Elayne may not be as strong as Nynaeve, but I wouldn't bet against Rand in that.

[Mailman]

8 hours ago, KakitaOCU said:

Love how you phrase it to imply she actually went to Whitebridge.  She lost her token on them and then flat out says she has to hope they go the right direction.  She goes to save Perrin and just ignores Rand and Matt, trusting them to go through Caemlyn and waiting there.  Same logic as going to Tar Valon in the show.
 

 

Moiraine did go to Whitebridge.

 

Moiraine can not split herself in 2. She cant pursue both groups at the same time.

 

She asked questions in Whitebridge and yes then she hopes that those 2 will continue in somewhat safety down the road to Camelyn. Its a lot harder for shadowspawn to search the roads and villages so they will be just up against Darkfriends more than likely. Dangerous but not more dangerous than possible fists of trollocs.

 

Moiraine then after planning decides to go after Perrins token as he is off in the wilderness and still retains his token.

 

Your desperation to defend the TV show is blinding you to obvious facts.

[Mailman]

8 hours ago, expat said:

What is the distance from SL to TV?  If someone traveled cross country from New York City to Pittsburg in 1750, do you really think that they would be easy to find? That there is a natural route they would automatically follow?

Sorry, must have missed it.  Could you please repeat.

You are pretty confident here.  The situation was SL was a large city for its time and they had no idea where the kids might have left it (if they escaped at all).  They would be approximately 8 days behind them when they got back to the city.  Searching the city would have taken how long to find any tracks?

 

Was any land outside the city on rocks that wouldn't show prints? Portions of the city exterior was overrun by Trollocs from when they chased them into the city which would have obscured any prints. How long would these tracks hold up if it rained?  What were the odds that they would find tracks?

 

They had no idea how many groups escaped, so were they looking for 4 sets of tracks (of which they could only follow one) or one set.   Did the kids escape on foot or did they still have their horses? Should they follow the first set (especially if they were horse tracks which may or may not have been ridden) or continue to search for others?

 

Bottom line is that I think you are vastly overestimating the chances of Moraine and Lan finding them even if they went back to SL.

Liandrin was suspicious of Moraine from the first, even though she wasn't doing anything.  After Logain was gentled, there was no longer a need for all the red sisters.  If Moraine suddenly bolted from the camp, you don't think Liandrin wouldn't have sent a couple of red sisters after her? At a minimum, she would have wanted to make sure that Moraine didn't escape her punishment for gentling Logain against tower policy.  On top of that, Liandrin would have also wanted to know what Moraine was doing.

 

Bottom line is that there was little chance of finding the kids and a decent chance that her mission would be exposed to the Reds.  Even if she did manage to find one or more of the kids, would she be exposing the DR to the Reds in a very suspicious manner? 

It may have been difficult or not even possible for them to find any of them but to not make a effort is insane to defend.

 

SL is also meant to be the city with no gate there not going to be a lot of places they could have exited then is there.

 

How would a Red sister find them if as you say the world is a big place she does not have a warder to help track them. Has no idea where they are going and if questioned can simply state she is looking into Tavern. Nothing seen gives the Reds any right to detain her.

4 hours ago, KakitaOCU said:

This happens in the books with Nynaeve too.  How about when she arbitrarily self learned Balefire for no reason in Book 3?
 

 

Moraine MIGHT have been equal to the NPC and the 2 no names, But she's nothing to Nynaeve and Egwene.  And this wasn't untrained, this was someone trained but weak wielding Nynaeve and Egwene's strength.

 

You have to remove Egwene from your power up. She channeled for the first time less than a month ago and just days before could only manage a fireball that could not even singe Valda's cloak. She is currently incredibly weak in the power and of little use as a addition.

[Juan Farstrider]

2 hours ago, KakitaOCU said:

I think people are focusing on the theoretical numbers instead of the actual feat.  Let's talk about that.

The 5 at the end of Episode 8 created a huge storm that brought repeated lightning strikes down in an area.  It was raw destruction without aim or focus.  You wouldn't even have to aim or control it, just build the storm and then let it go.
...
Rand creates controlled chaos where he always has the ability to stop what he's doing and where he generally controls where he destroys.  Amalisa and co just unleashed raw devastation in an area and hoped for the best.

"You wouldn't even have to aim or control it, just build the storm and then let it go."  Really? And yet it missed like no trollocs, and hit no innocent bystanders or like destroyed the city behind them? And you're sure that's what happened, or is this a guess? 

"Rand creates controlled chaos where he always has the ability to stop what he's doing and where he generally controls where he destroys." Rand killed plenty of his own in one confrontation, and thankfully he learned from that. I don't really see Rand as always being in control as you describe.

[Mailman]

4 minutes ago, Juan Farstrider said:

"You wouldn't even have to aim or control it, just build the storm and then let it go."  Really? And yet it missed like no trollocs, and hit no innocent bystanders or like destroyed the city behind them? And you're sure that's what happened, or is this a guess? 

"Rand creates controlled chaos where he always has the ability to stop what he's doing and where he generally controls where he destroys." Rand killed plenty of his own in one confrontation, and thankfully he learned from that. I don't really see Rand as always being in control as you describe.

In fairness the time he destroyed his own was due to the lingering effects of the use of The bowl of winds which was distorting any channeling used in a wide range. And he was not aware or too arrogant to think he could not maintain control.

[Juan Farstrider]

Well circumstances not withstanding, I'm not sure Rand always has things as under control as the quote I was replying to would imply. I think there was some collateral damage in Tear from a fight Rand was in. My point is that it is neither as simple nor as cut-and-dried as KakitaOCU would have us believe

[ashi]

3 hours ago, KakitaOCU said:

Comparatively Rand at his most destructive is throwing out constantly opening and shutting gateways that spread and leap about, filaments of fire that extend and maintain hundreds of feat. 

That's 400 year old Lews Therin Telamon Sedai, though, from whom Rand learns those weaves, in Knife of Dreams, book 11, if you are talking about his first use of them; or (colloquially known as Zen) Rand Sedai after LTT integration and Veins of Gold enlightenment - not someone in book/season 1 with no power development nor cohabiting personality from the Age of Legends, and as such not really a reasonable basis for comparison.

Edited January 20, 2022 by ashi

[Skipp]

2 hours ago, Ralph said:

A few points:

 

1. Surely they must have trained in combat if the Green Ajah exists? 

 

2. Someone said Rand is meant to be stronger than Egwene and Nynaevec ombined. I don't recall a source for this in the books. Egwene and Elayne, yes. 

 

3. In the show M said Amalisa trained for many years, so it doesn't bother me that she knew hwo to link and how to bring lightning. And there is not a question that they should have kept them for linking, because the books criticise the AS for far greater lapses of judgement with regard to who they keep.

 

4. We have Accepted leading circles of Novices in the books in Salidar iirc. 

 

 

To be frank, I really disliked that scene. (The Healing at the end was even worse.) I understand why they wanted to take it from Rand, and that they couldn't think who to give it to, but I agree it was silly. 

 

But I think people who disliked the show for changes are now not willing to consider simple explanations for their queries, because that requires a positive attitude and faith in the creators. Similar inconsistencies in the books would not bother them in the slightest. 

 

 

Agreed on all points

 

The healing scene at the end of Episode 8 was probably my least favourite scene of the series.  My nonreader friends didn't comment on it so I didn't comment to much on it to them.

 

While I wanted Egwene and Nynaeve to have more agency in the ending compared to the book I wasn't super happy with the scene either.  I appreciate them showing the danger of burning out and the cool effect to go with it.  But we still didn't have much agency for either character there.  We'll see what they build, if anything, off of this scene.

 

 

[Skipp]

1 hour ago, Juan Farstrider said:

"You wouldn't even have to aim or control it, just build the storm and then let it go."  Really? And yet it missed like no trollocs, and hit no innocent bystanders or like destroyed the city behind them? And you're sure that's what happened, or is this a guess? 

"Rand creates controlled chaos where he always has the ability to stop what he's doing and where he generally controls where he destroys." Rand killed plenty of his own in one confrontation, and thankfully he learned from that. I don't really see Rand as always being in control as you describe.

Hence why it was a good idea to not have them on the wall.  But yeah, they were in an open field essentially, the city was on the cliff behind them.  Very little chance of collateral damage.  I think the shot could have been filmed better but they didn't have access to the original shooting location and had the rest of the covid protocols to deal with.

[Kudzu]

4 hours ago, Katherine said:

 

I have read the books several times, but it has been about two years so everyone can correct me if I am wrong.... but combat was NOT EVER something that was taught to a novice or an Accepted. 

 

Is that true? I don't recall that being the case. Whether or not they are taught actual combat, they are certainly shown weaves that could be used in combat.

 

In Suian's first lesson to Nynaeve and Egwene she shows them how to make a dagger out of air and how to hold someone with air. We also know novices are shown how to make fire, maybe only for the purposes of lighting candles etc. still it wouldn't take much to extrapolate that into a fireball.

[Juan Farstrider]

13 minutes ago, Skipp said:

Hence why it was a good idea to not have them on the wall.  But yeah, they were in an open field essentially, the city was on the cliff behind them.  Very little chance of collateral damage.  

is that how storms work? Tornadoes sometimes take out 1 house on a block. I somehow had a house that was across the street from a house that was connected back yards to another house which was across their street from a third which were all damaged by tornadoes as well as the cars (very small tornado luckily) but my house and every other house in the neighborhood was free of damage. characterizing this as a storm that you just unleash and let go, and somehow it was 100% effective and only effective with no other problems seems placing way too much faith where it doesn't belong. Why shoot it at all? Just say "oh, those trollocs? we blew them all up. It was awesome." It's equally believable in that I 100% believe either version a film maker might present, but I'd never call either well done or plausible. Couldn't Moraine have done that with Nynaeve and Egwene  to knock the socks off of the trollocs making the second offensive on Emond's Field? 

Edited January 20, 2022 by Juan Farstrider
syntax/grammar error

[Raal Gurniss]

3 hours ago, KakitaOCU said:

Conceit that they're not full Aes Sedai?  Same reason as in the books.
 

 

Sorry, I wasn't aware I wasn't forwarding a direct opinion.  Rand is stronger than Nynaeve+Egwene.  What he did may have been a similar level of total destruction but the control and precision shows significantly more power.

……..Not sure conceit played a large part given how diminished the Tower was and the level of power a barely trained weakling could wield as part of a circle as in the case in point of the show!

 

And be honest, you were aware that you weren’t forwarding a direct opinion, it took a number of attempts to get you even even remotely come close and even then it barely sounds like you are saying the Dragon Reborn is stronger, if indeed that is what you did even say!

 

Would be interesting to see what level you thought them as %….Not going to ask though.

[KakitaOCU]

  

4 hours ago, ashi said:

That's 400 year old Lews Therin Telamon Sedai, though, from whom Rand learns those weaves, in Knife of Dreams, book 11, if you are talking about his first use of them; or (colloquially known as Zen) Rand Sedai after LTT integration and Veins of Gold enlightenment - not someone in book/season 1 with no power development nor cohabiting personality from the Age of Legends, and as such not really a reasonable basis for comparison.

I wasn't putting it out as a perfectly reasonable power comparison.

The argument made was that it was completely over the top to have five linked women which included Nynaeve and Egwene devastate at max 10k trollocs.  When I pointed out that it was just raw lightning someone else insisted it was wrong because it approached Rand.  I pointed out that Rand shows an astronomically higher level of control and power despite also killing only 10k trollocs in a given scene.

 

2 hours ago, Raal Gurniss said:

And be honest, you were aware that you weren’t forwarding a direct opinion, it took a number of attempts to get you even even remotely come close and even then it barely sounds like you are saying the Dragon Reborn is stronger, if indeed that is what you did even say!

 

No, I genuinely thought flat out saying One person's show of power was far more complicated and difficult to do than another's flat out said I thought one person was stronger.  I flat out said what Rand did was harder to do than what Amalisa with her circle did.  There was no ambiguity.  It wasn't until you said I was being vague that it even occurred to me to think someone read "What Rand did is more complex and harder than what Amalisa did" as something other than "Rand is stronger."

 

  

4 hours ago, Juan Farstrider said:

"You wouldn't even have to aim or control it, just build the storm and then let it go."  Really? And yet it missed like no trollocs, and hit no innocent bystanders or like destroyed the city behind them? And you're sure that's what happened, or is this a guess? 

Who said it missed no trollocs?  It broke their line, tons could have retreated.   All we know is it killed a ton and stopped the attack.

Who said it hit no bystanders, I wouldn't be surprised if it killed anyone who was still alive in the gap.  Avoiding the city is broad control of aiming it forward, not the same as actually directing it at targets.  The were out in front of the city and then built the storm in front of them.
 

4 hours ago, Juan Farstrider said:

"Rand creates controlled chaos where he always has the ability to stop what he's doing and where he generally controls where he destroys." Rand killed plenty of his own in one confrontation, and thankfully he learned from that. I don't really see Rand as always being in control as you describe.

 

When being driven by Callandor and just raining lightning he does.  But the person I'm debating with is comparing Ep 8 to what Rand does at the Manor or Maradon.  The argument being that it cheapens what Rand did, where as my argument is that Rand is showing ridiculous levels of control and power at those points.

 

  

3 hours ago, Juan Farstrider said:

Couldn't Moraine have done that with Nynaeve and Egwene  to knock the socks off of the trollocs making the second offensive on Emond's Field?

If she knew Nynaeve's strength or Egwenes and either of them were capable of channeling, sure.  But Nynaeve was MIA at that point and Egwene hadn't even gottern her basic little crash course yet.  

Edited January 20, 2022 by KakitaOCU