Season 1 Discussion (Full Book Spoilers) v2.1

[EmreY]

On a slightly different subject, might Ishy's unorthodox teaching of how to embrace saidin be intentional?

 

After all, the seizing part is for optimal use.

 

(And Nynaeve also initially has a rather strange way of getting things done.)

 

 

[VooDooNut]

1 minute ago, EmreY said:

On a slightly different subject, might Ishy's unorthodox teaching of how to embrace saidin be intentional?

 

After all, the seizing part is for optimal use.

 

(And Nynaeve also initially has a rather strange way of getting things done.)

 

 

It would not surprise me at all if we later find out Ishy tried to kill Rand by telling him to submit to Saidin, instead of seizing it. Tricky Ishy!

[Humbugged2]

1 hour ago, ilovezam said:

Not directly as a result of channeling within a circle, right? 

 

No they were is a circle and still died plus another 3 except Aviendha ,there was also the circles when people were killed when the used the Choden Kal and people is that died as well . Either dead or burned out

[KakitaOCU]

1 hour ago, Humbugged2 said:

 

No they were is a circle and still died plus another 3 except Aviendha ,there was also the circles when people were killed when the used the Choden Kal and people is that died as well . Either dead or burned out

It wasn't burn out it was exhaustion.

Cadsuane identifies it and explains during the cleansing when Nynaeve starts to slump.  She says that unless there's a glitch in the Choden Kal  like Calandor it's impossible for her to get forced to burn out.  But simple exhaustion of channeling non-stop for hours is a thing.

[VooDooNut]

1 hour ago, KakitaOCU said:

It wasn't burn out it was exhaustion.

Cadsuane identifies it and explains during the cleansing when Nynaeve starts to slump.  She says that unless there's a glitch in the Choden Kal  like Calandor it's impossible for her to get forced to burn out.  But simple exhaustion of channeling non-stop for hours is a thing.

Makes me wonder why every channeler doesn't carry even the simplest of angreal to prevent any chance of burnout. It doesn't need to magnify the channeler's power, just prevent them from burning out by accident. But based on the burn-outs in the circle of episode 8, I doubt buffers will play as big a role in the show as they did the books.

[Mailman]

A theory I have heard is that Perrin is not in love with Egwene but with Rand. (makes his I've only ever loved one woman line accurate as well)

 

This really feels like something the showrunners feel would be a good change to make to me.

[Mailman]

Just now, VooDooNut said:

Makes me wonder why every channeler doesn't carry even the simplest of angreal to prevent any chance of burnout. It doesn't need to magnify the channeler's power, just prevent them from burning out by accident. But based on the burn-outs in the circle of episode 8, I doubt buffers will play as big a role in the show as they did the books.

Angreal are very rare in the books and they cant make new ones so its not possible to have everyone carry one.

[VooDooNut]

4 minutes ago, Mailman said:

Angreal are very rare in the books and they cant make new ones so its not possible to have everyone carry one.

Surely Elayne could start cranking out low-power angreal for the masses as a priority. But yes, rarity of angreal is an issue.

[Skipp]

12 minutes ago, VooDooNut said:

Surely Elayne could start cranking out low-power angreal for the masses as a priority. But yes, rarity of angreal is an issue.

Rand does give Elayne a "seed" for making Ter'angreal near the end of the books.  I think RJ mentioned that the making of the angreal is an intensive process that actually diminshes the makers own ability for a time afterwards.  Hence the rareness.

[Gothic Flame]

25 minutes ago, Mailman said:

Angreal are very rare in the books and they cant make new ones so its not possible to have everyone carry one.

Sa'angreal are supposed to be almost nonexistent...only three male onrs if I recall. But...

[ashi]

30 minutes ago, VooDooNut said:

Makes me wonder why every channeler doesn't carry even the simplest of angreal to prevent any chance of burnout. It doesn't need to magnify the channeler's power, just prevent them from burning out by accident. But based on the burn-outs in the circle of episode 8, I doubt buffers will play as big a role in the show as they did the books.

Unless I am mistaken, the angreal buffer only prevents the channeler from burning out due to the extra power drawn through the angreal (if, e.g. the channeler is not strong enough to handle the angreal's power). A channeler can still burn out by drawing more power than the angreal can provide. See e.g. (after Rand uses the portal stone to get to Rhuidean):

 

Quote

The Shadow Rising, chapter 23, Beyond the Stone

“You came close,” Moiraine said coolly. Very coolly. “The angreal was not sufficient to the task. You must not do this again. If you take chances, they must be reasoned and for a strong purpose. They must be.”

 

Edited January 14, 2022 by ashi

[ashi]

20 minutes ago, ashi said:

Unless I am mistaken, the angreal buffer only prevents the channeler from burning out due to the extra power drawn through the angreal (if, e.g. the channeler is not strong enough to handle the angreal's power). A channeler can still burn out by drawing more power than the angreal can provide. See e.g. (after Rand uses the portal stone to get to Rhuidean):

 

 

Eh. I found another, somewhat clearer [emphasis on the extra Power], quote (when Nyn. et. al. link with the windfinders to use the Bowl of the Winds):

 

Quote

Path of Daggers, chapter 5, The Breaking Storm

 

"I now control the flow of saidar from her as well as my own," Nynaeve went on, not quite meeting Elayne’s eyes, "and will until I let her go. Now, don’t fear that whoever leads the circle," she shot a frown at Caire and sniffed, "can make you draw too much. This really is a great deal like an angreal. The angreal buffers you against the extra Power, and in somewhat the same way, in a circle you can’t be made to draw too much. In fact, in a circle you can’t draw quite as much as you can otherwi—"

 

Edited January 15, 2022 by ashi

[ashi]

On 1/13/2022 at 12:06 AM, orbops said:

I am very impressed with your knowledge and detail that you can find specific quotes from individual books. It reminds me (in a good way of the devotion WoT readers have) of the SNL skit with Kirk... 

 

Thank you, I think. :)

 

But I probably do not have as detailed knowledge as you imagine. I just remember the gist of things, the flow of the chapters, and certain phrases - and do keyword searches in pdfs. ?

[Humbugged2]

On 12/2/2021 at 2:49 PM, mogi68 said:

Here's my fringe theory: the crystal that the caged Aiel had was from the Eye of the World. Young men sometimes travel into the blight thinking that they are called to kill the Dark One. Moiraine, having been to the Eye of the World before, will find this crystal on Mat and see it as evidence that the pattern is leading them towards the Eye.

 

As in the book, Loial will tell his story of a man at Stedding Shangtai who said that the DO "means to blind the Eye of the World". This man had intended to carry the message to Tar Valon, but died in the Stedding (perhaps the message is even why Loial is in Tar Valon). 

 

The message + the crystal + the ba'alzamon dreams (even if he doesn't speak) will lead Moiraine to the Eye

 

No they have their own prophecy and have been sending people west for 2/3 years looking for the Chief of Chiefs

[ilovezam]

7 hours ago, Dead Warder said:

Women channelers in the third age may be powerful but they sure are overzealous, blindly accusatory, sometimes overbearing, liars, gossipers, generally biased, sexist and some are outright evil.

That's what I originally thought. Then Rosamund Pike the actress, not the biased in-universe character, says all that stuff. 

 

Where Robert Jordan features prejudice with condemnation, Rafe seems to sometimes condone it. Jordan balances it out with characters like Moiraine who was more "woke" (hahaha), and generally kinder and compassionate towards men despite the prevailing beliefs of the Aes Sedai and we also get to see how wrong and unfair through the in-universe male characters. We get none of that in the show, and hopefully season 2 will remedy that

 

Edit: Yikes, used "woke" to describe how Moiraine was less prejudiced against men and more progressive in-universe and it kicked a filter I guess. Mods, please help to delete?

Edited January 15, 2022 by ilovezam

[Humbugged2]

On 12/2/2021 at 11:20 PM, RhienneAgain said:

I'm on total agreement on the disappointment in Lan. He doesn't feel like the same character as book Lan at all.

 

To an extent I understand that a stone-like, stoic character might not appeal to fans that much but I think given how many other characters there are to hook you in, it would be ok to have one character like that who grows on you gradually as the series progresses.

 

In the books, Lan is so perfectly described by his Aiel title - Aan'Allein, the man alone. In the show he's portrayed as just 'one of the lads' around the campfire with the other warders. The other characters aren't remotely intimidated by him. There's no sense in any character's interactions with him that they have any respect for him or his skills.

That was Rand's view of him because the first book is mostly in his and Perrin's heads . We did not know outside of that

We  got to know him a bit in New Spring where he was sleeping with people and wanting to go to the Blight which is where Aan'Allein came from

 

He then spent 20 years with Moriane being a Warder and chasing her mission or hanging out with him and his bros taking the piss

[ilovezam]

7 hours ago, Dead Warder said:

Historical accuracy deteriorates over time and the third age is left with a generally false belief that only men are responsible for the Breaking. While this is largely true, the fateful accord had it's fair share of responsibility. But the current attitude towards men by women in the third age is written for a reason, to portray the arrogance of female Aes Sedai, the White Tower political arm, the poor accuracy of history and the general fear that is fueled by false facts. 

 

Women channelers in the third age may be powerful but they sure are overzealous, blindly accusatory, sometimes overbearing, liars, gossipers, generally biased, sexist and some are outright evil. This is portrayed in the novels and it's probably starting (or hopefully will start) to show in the TV series.

 

Season 1 is basically an Aes Sedai centric season and perhaps this is why we see (or feel) underplayed male characters, because of the aforementioned demeanors. IMO, Moiraine's TV character is the example of a female Aes Sedai who is zealous, powerful, knowledge in craft but ignorant in historical accuracy. She is obtuse, emotionally unbalanced and an outright terrible communicator. I personally would never follow her to the nearest convenience store.

That's how I originally felt. Then Rosamund Pike the actress, not the biased in-universe character, says all that stuff. And then a flashback to the Age of Legends seemed to just hammer home that these prejudiced Aes Sedai were actually right about the Dragon and the Breaking.

 

I 100% agree with your post and it's a good part of why the books were so good. With regards to the show though - where Robert Jordan features prejudice with condemnation, Rafe seems to sometimes condone it. Jordan balances it out with characters like Moiraine who was more balanced and generally kinder and compassionate towards men despite the prevailing beliefs of the Aes Sedai and we also get to see how wrong and unfair the sexism was, through the eyes of the male characters. We get none of that in the show, and hopefully season 2 will start to remedy that.

 

On the other hand, Rafe wrote Agelmar and LTT in a way that seems to reinforce that these prejudiced Aes Sedai are, in fact, correct to think poorly of men. They both get scenes, in consecutive episodes no less, where they refused to listen to a woman who was much smarter, and 100% in the right. Agelmar is a minor character sure, but writing a kind and virtuous male book character to be the cliche alpha-male twat was a really weird choice. If Rafe just wanted to concoct some free drama for the episode, why not make Amalisa the distrustful one? She's got an extra reason to dislike the Aes Sedai after all since she dropped out from the Tower.

Edited January 15, 2022 by ilovezam

[Humbugged2]

On 12/3/2021 at 8:42 AM, Mailman said:

Episode 5 was utter garbage

 

Loial WTF  $10M a episode for that.

Horrendous info dumps through the whole episode 

Moiraine makes no effort for over a month to find the Emond Fielders just hopes they will stumble into Tar Valon

Every conversation with Liandrin is just super weird.

Whitecloaks WTF is going on there apparently Valda seems to think he is invincible.

 

Just terrible from any view.

 

So we got that Loail talk has normal behaviour or a CGI that you would get once or twice a season

 

How was she supposed to find them ? She was injured and had gone the other direction at first to get healed  so they could have been anywhere from Saldea to Tear

 

Of course the Liandrin stuff was weird seen as who she is

 

And the Whitecloaks in the books 1 month on were pursuing Elayne and Elaida with a full guard right to the gates of TV

[KakitaOCU]

48 minutes ago, ilovezam said:

That's how I originally felt. Then Rosamund Pike the actress, not the biased in-universe character, says all that stuff. And then a flashback to the Age of Legends seemed to just hammer home that these prejudiced Aes Sedai were actually right about the Dragon and the Breaking.

Because the actress is going to talk about stuff that's not meant to be known by new audiences.

I remember all those times Alan Rickman discussed Snape being a Triple agent well before movie 6 rolled out.

[ilovezam]

19 minutes ago, KakitaOCU said:

Because the actress is going to talk about stuff that's not meant to be known by new audiences.

I remember all those times Alan Rickman discussed Snape being a Triple agent well before movie 6 rolled out.

So you are of the opinion that they're intentionally misleading the audience at this point and will show how wrong the women in universe was to think what they think? I hope you're right! 

 

She's talking about what Robert Jordan was trying to write about, and implied that that Aes Sedai prejudice and sexist attitude towards men and the Breaking was not just a in-universe thing, but also Robert Jordan's actual position. Maybe she was method acting and staying in character in interviews or something. 

 

It's more like Alan Rickman trying to interpret JK Rowling's themes from the lens of an actual Death Eater before movie 6 and stating that in an interview. 

Edited January 15, 2022 by ilovezam

[Mailman]

4 hours ago, VooDooNut said:

Surely Elayne could start cranking out low-power angreal for the masses as a priority. But yes, rarity of angreal is an issue.

You needed a seed to make a angreal and they weakened the user after creation for a number of months  and she only received a seed from Rand right before the Last Battle

[ilovezam]

4 minutes ago, Mailman said:

she only received a seed from Rand right before the Last Battle

Giggity. 

Edited January 15, 2022 by ilovezam

[notpropaganda73]

14 hours ago, ilovezam said:

The sex scenes in GoT were never meant to "empower men" though? If anything I thought they were mostly supposed to make the audience feel a little uneasy and disgusted.

I didn’t say they were meant to empower men, but certainly  they demeaned women (at least in my view). Like I said, I don't blame anyone for wanting to emphasise that the sex scenes in the show be different than what studios would be used to seeing or expect to see.

 

I agree with you to a degree on Mat's book character too, but I still think giving him this family background and maybe hinting at a darker struggle within Mat is interesting for the show. It gives all 3 of the lads a different internal struggle

[fra85uk]

8 hours ago, ilovezam said:

If Rafe just wanted to concoct some free drama for the episode, why not make Amalisa the distrustful one? She's got an extra reason to dislike the Aes Sedai after all since she dropped out from the Tower.

 

But in reality Amalisa was going to steal Rand's thunder, so you could not have her being nasty.

 

Really, if I think of Lady Amalisa taking the first Rand's great moment...I would like to travel in time before the show aired and tell people here "Wot season 1 will end with Amalisa in Tarwin gap defeating the trollocs" and read the reactions, particularly of the lionel-hutz-style defenders of the show ?

[Gothic Flame]

7 hours ago, ilovezam said:

Giggity. 

Well..yeah. There's that.