Season 1 Discussion (Full Book Spoilers) v2.1

[JeffTheWoodlandElf]

5 minutes ago, Elder_Haman said:

I don't understand the question. Who is not being permitted to see negative reactions? And what do you mean by "the formula". 

@Raal Gurniss Yeah man, you might have to chill. The mods here are great. You realize that over on r/WoT the moderators are banning anyone who says anything negative about the show. In some cases, they're banning people who made normal comments but who have previously posted in r/Whitecloaks (the reddit home for show detractors). Dragonmount is literally the only place on the internet where a balanced discussion of WoTtv is even possible. 

[Cauthonfan4]

1 minute ago, EmreY said:

As far as I am concerned, it makes perfect sense to play up their abilities right now,

Except if they are untrained and doing this, imagine how stupid strong you have to make them after training them up to an aes sedai level. and then you have to make the dragon just that much stronger on top of that. which goes back to power creep.

Furthermore Nynaeve has had all sorts of time to shine in the series and really didn't need more

either way - this would have been a great way to give men and women some spotlight working effectively together and to not degrade a perfectly good character.

[Gothic Flame]

A 10ft ogier going toe-to-toe with a similar sized trolloc...pity that only happens in the books.

[JeffTheWoodlandElf]

5 minutes ago, Cauthonfan4 said:

Except if they are untrained and doing this, imagine how stupid strong you have to make them after training them up to an aes sedai level. and then you have to make the dragon just that much stronger on top of that. which goes back to power creep.

Furthermore Nynaeve has had all sorts of time to shine in the series and really didn't need more

Definitely. IMO, it's a question of impatience, insecurity, and inability to trust the audience's intelligence. 

 

1. Impatience: Level up the characters right from the get go/fast forward their character development to get to the "good" stuff from the books more quickly. 

2. Insecurity: "Oh no! We have to write an interesting, engaging character who is ostensibly just a normal, average person with untapped potential? What ever are we to do?!" 

3. Inability to trust audience intelligence: "Modern American audiences aren't going to sit through 7 episodes with characters who don't do magic! Up the magic! Up the action!" 

[JeffTheWoodlandElf]

5 minutes ago, Gothic Flame said:

A 10ft ogier going toe-to-toe with a similar sized trolloc...pity that only happens in the books.

Best we can hope for now it Loial fighting a midget Trolloc. 

[Cauthonfan4]

13 minutes ago, EmreY said:

If the final couple of books aren't very carefully translated, this series will turn into the Apotheosis of Rand, and nothing else.

Because Egwene unifying the tower and healing balefire damage isn't huge points.

Because Nynaeve Helping to Cleanse the source, Healing Stilling, and Curing Madness aren't massive deals.

Because Mat being the most badass general the world ever saw wouldn't be cool to see, nor him Saving Moiraine. (not to mention, just Mat).

 

and that's barely scratching the surface.

 

[EmreY]

5 minutes ago, Cauthonfan4 said:

Except if they are untrained and doing this, imagine how stupid strong you have to make them after training them up to an aes sedai level. and then you have to make the dragon just that much stronger on top of that. which goes back to power creep.

Furthermore Nynaeve has had all sorts of time to shine in the series and really didn't need more

either way - this would have been a great way to give men and women some spotlight working effectively together and to not degrade a perfectly good character.

 

The Dragon is apparently capable of going against Satan and winning.  Oh, no, no power creep in the source material.

[Blackbyrd]

22 minutes ago, JeffTheWoodlandElf said:

What's definitely gonna be some BS is if they don't at least make the main Aiel characters fairly tall. You can't do this for everyone, but you can do it for the important players and achieve a similar effect. 

 

See now I just want to see Gaul as a midget- and that small mofo go savage- just to see the hate.

 

Really though it's always more about spitting in the eye rather than any actual physical modality

Edited January 7, 2022 by Blackbyrd

[Cauthonfan4]

1 minute ago, EmreY said:

The Dragon is apparently capable of going against Satan and winning.  Oh, no, no power creep in the source material.

Okay but at the rate they are going, when Rand is supposed to wipe out a trolloc horde on his own later in the series outside maradon, it's literally going to be small potatoes that he pulled it off instead of "hey its like he went hugely above and beyond".

 

[EmreY]

1 minute ago, Cauthonfan4 said:

Because Egwene unifying the tower and healing balefire damage isn't huge points.

 

Politics and Elaida's incompetence.  Healing Balefire is cool, though.

 

1 minute ago, Cauthonfan4 said:

Because Nynaeve Helping to Cleanse the source, Healing Stilling, and Curing Madness aren't massive deals.

In the first she helps; the second and third win technical Oscars but not Best Actor/ress. 

 

 

1 minute ago, Cauthonfan4 said:

Because Mat being the most badass general the world ever saw wouldn't be cool to see, nor him Saving Moiraine. (not to mention, just Mat).

Everyone will get their turn.  And you cannot jump from complaining about overexposure to one where the character hasn't been exposed at all.

 

1 minute ago, Cauthonfan4 said:

 

and that's barely scratching the surface.

 

Again, the Lord Dragon, Prince of Morning, forces half continent to fall into order in two years and bests the Dark One.

 

He wins, I think.

[Gothic Flame]

If they can cast the 13th warrior with tall dudes that made Antonio Banderas feel short, I'm sure they can find enough...*blinks* 

Wat?

[EmreY]

Just now, Cauthonfan4 said:

Okay but at the rate they are going, when Rand is supposed to wipe out a trolloc horde on his own later in the series outside maradon, it's literally going to be small potatoes that he pulled it off instead of "hey its like he went hugely above and beyond".

 

 

You're right.  Except that I bet there will be those Dreadlords I mentioned before.

[JeffTheWoodlandElf]

5 minutes ago, Blackbyrd said:

See now I just want to make the Aiel Perrin frees up a midget- and that small mofo go savage- just to see the hate.

Likewise, I would love to see the next season hyper sexualize the domination that Egwene undergoes at the hands of the Seanchan, just to see the hate. 

[Cauthonfan4]

7 minutes ago, EmreY said:

Politics and Elaida's incompetence.  Healing Balefire is cool, though.

 

Yeah because her repelling the Seanchan attack wasn't badass.

7 minutes ago, EmreY said:

In the first she helps; the second and third win technical Oscars but not Best Actor/ress. 

 

she's literally already wrecking everyone and it's not even close.

7 minutes ago, EmreY said:

Everyone will get their turn.  And you cannot jump from complaining about overexposure to one where the character hasn't been exposed at all.

 

except in the books they showed them to be more or less equal throughout. not "Everyone gets a turn".

If your standard is "everyone gets a turn" then Nynaeve should do about as much next season as Mat did this season. aka Nothing, because she spent this entire season getting everyones turn. except i somehow doubt that happens.

7 minutes ago, EmreY said:

Again, the Lord Dragon, Prince of Morning, forces half continent to fall into order in two years and bests the Dark One.

 

He wins, I think.

except based on season 1, who is to say that he is going to do that? from what i've seen so far of Rands development i wouldn't be surprised if Rand only gets about 10% of it himself.

Edited January 7, 2022 by Cauthonfan4

[Raal Gurniss]

2 hours ago, Elder_Haman said:

I don't understand the question. Who is not being permitted to see negative reactions? And what do you mean by "the formula". 

Why would they change the “style” the “pattern” the “method” the “route” the “view” the “path” the “direction” they chose if they don’t “acknowledge” anything is wrong with the way they have done things.

Edited January 7, 2022 by Raal Gurniss

[Raal Gurniss]

50 minutes ago, VooDooNut said:

Again, IMO this just shows the overuse of height as a trope in fantasy, and RJ nor Rafe&Co. are invulnerable to this trapping. Height literally means jack in many circumstances. A lion is shorter than you but will <expletive> you up regardless.

 

This is an opinion. I can't, nor would I want to try to, dissuade you from your opinion.

It’s not opinion, it’s literally what they did.

[VooDooNut]

1 minute ago, Raal Gurniss said:

It’s not opinion, it’s literally what they did.

Aye aye, captain.

[Raal Gurniss]

1 minute ago, VooDooNut said:

Aye aye, captain.

2 minutes ago, VooDooNut said:

Aye aye, captain.

Yeah, tell you what…How about we just ignore each other from now on, think that will be for the best…By all means feel free to have the final say between us, I know that’s important to some, so I gift it to thee.

[ArrylT]

2 hours ago, EmreY said:

 

It's quite possible that you're right.

 

But you (and others) are in the position of a food critic who has written off a meal in remembrance of Escoffier because the traditional 14 courses will have to be whittled down to 8, and the aspic used for some of the hors-d'oeuvres doesn't follow the Master's own recipe.

 

Most others who haven't even heard of Escoffier, legion though his fans are, will just be happy to go along with it as long as it doesn't taste wholly off.  And there's always the possibility a fantastic, authentic dish will appear at one point or another.

 

Now, after really getting into the meal, it turns out that both the deviations from the recipes and the taste become too much to bear, then everyone will likely go out for a cheeseburger.   But some of the critics on this forum (not necessarily yourself) seem to have decided that the meal was and would forever be awful the moment they took their very first bite (at least we're at the end of the first course now). And even more surprisingly, criticism for daring not to make choices that would have turned the dishes out to be different to both what Escoffier wanted and you expected.

 

I know who I am hiring to review all of the inns & restaurants in the Westlands now.  

[Blackbyrd]

17 minutes ago, JeffTheWoodlandElf said:

Likewise, I would love to see the next season hyper sexualize the domination that Egwene undergoes at the hands of the Seanchan, just to see the hate. 

 

Well- you're views are well known so it's fine but uhhhhh yeh the egwene torture with breakout from the collar might get a better relevance. I'm all for that. Good Idea

[Truthteller]

I don’t understand what metrics that shows the show has been a success is supposed to prove.  It certainly doesn’t prove the show was good.  Plenty of bad shows are successful.

 

It also doesn’t prove the changes were necessary for it to be a success, or that it wouldn’t have been more successful if they show had been better.  You don’t have a counter factual.  Empirical evidence in this case is not sufficient to make the case.  

 

Indeed, if the show is successful now, a good show would have been more successful.  This theory cannot be disproved by the empirical evidence.  
 

[VooDooNut]

3 minutes ago, Truthteller said:

I don’t understand what metrics that shows the show has been a success is supposed to prove.  It certainly doesn’t prove the show was good.  Plenty of bad shows are successful.

 

It also doesn’t prove the changes were necessary for it to be a success, or that it wouldn’t have been more successful if they show had been better.  You don’t have a counter factual.  Empirical evidence in this case is not sufficient to make the case.  

 

Indeed, if the show is successful now, a good show would have been more successful.  This theory cannot be disproved by the empirical evidence.  
 

Why does anything have to proved one way or the other? If there's a season 2, I'll watch it. That's my metric.

[Jaysen Gore]

46 minutes ago, Cauthonfan4 said:

except in the books they showed them to be more or less equal throughout. not "Everyone gets a turn".

If your standard is "everyone gets a turn" then Nynaeve should do about as much next season as Mat did this season. aka Nothing, because she spent this entire season getting everyones turn. except i somehow doubt that happens.

except based on season 1, who is to say that he is going to do that? from what i've seen so far of Rands development i wouldn't be surprised if Rand only gets about 10% of it himself.

This is an interesting example, since between Nynaeve having her block removed in Ebou Dar and the end of the book, she doesn't grow at all (her character arc is over), and while she has some great moments ("Will he ride alone", the cleansing, aiding Rand, and healing Faile) that's about it for her. So she will definitely take a back seat to Mat and Perrin over the last third of the series

Edited January 7, 2022 by Jaysen Gore

[ashi]

24 minutes ago, Jaysen Gore said:

This is an interesting example, since between Nynaeve having her block removed in Ebou Dar and the end of the book, she doesn't grow at all (her character arc is over), and while she has some great moments ("Will he ride alone", the cleansing, aiding Rand, and healing Faile) that's about it for her. So she will definitely take a back seat to Mat and Perrin over the last third of the series

Arguably her character arc culminates in and after her test to become Aes Sedai in Towers of Midnight, when she refuses to conform, holding to her core and core ideals more than to the rules of the Tower or "what an Aes Sedai should be". At the very least it is a capstone and testament to her integrity.

 

Quote

Towers of Midnight, chapter 20:

 

Nynaeve began to walk toward the star. Calm. Measured. That was stupid. An Aes Sedai had to be calm. She knew that. But an Aes Sedai also needed to be able to act, to do what was needed to help those who needed it. It didn't matter what it cost her personally. These people needed her. So she started to run.
...
"You failed, child" Barasine said, regarding Nynaeve with an emotionless stare. "You did not show proper decorum."
...
"My goal in this test was to prove that I deserve to be Aes Sedai. Well, then I could argue that the lives of the people I saw were more important than gaining that title. If losing my title is what would be required to save someone's life—and if there were no other consequences—I'd do it. Every time. Not saving them wouldn't be serving a higher good; it would just be selfish."

...

"We must discuss the forbidden weave you used," Saerin said, stern. "...We want you to swear that you will never use that weave again."
...
"I won't do that," Nynaeve said tiredly. ... "If you're going to raise me," Nynaeve said, "then you'll just have to trust my judgment on balefire. If you don't trust me to know when to use a very dangerous weave and when not to, then I'd rather you not raise me."

 

Edited January 7, 2022 by ashi

[WoTwasThat]

1 hour ago, JeffTheWoodlandElf said:

It's hard to remember back to 3 whole months ago, but no one NO ONE thought it even remotely feasible that Tarwin's Gap would be given to Amalisa. Everyone was talking about how excited they were to see Rand go ham on the trollocs.

 

Everyone was saying how the changes are small, necessary for adaptation, that big character moments would be respected, that the destination would be the same just with a different journey. 

 

And yet here we are. What next? That's the question that makes me nervous. 

 

If the writers did this to Tarwin's Gap, why should I believe they won't do the same at Falme, Dumai's Wells, the Stone of Tear, or any other of WoT's big moments? 

 

And still people are apologizing for Rafe and making excuses for the show and the writers. Unbelievable. 

 

This is very true. A pattern is emerging. It rhymes with wattered bife syndrome.