Season 1 Discussion (Full Book Spoilers) v2.1

[Cauthonfan4]

Just now, EmreY said:

3. Oh, who bloody cares?

 

because if the dude is literally a great general nothing he did makes sense. at all.

1 minute ago, EmreY said:

1. Slow burn.

 

so why give it to the women then? why not let Jagad show his military brilliance? by then we had plenty of scenes of the women being badasses. you could have even had him ask for the women to stand at the top of the gap to provide support and add siege as well to actually show his military competence. no group that lives this close to the blight would let such an incompetent person be in charge of the military.

[VooDooNut]

4 minutes ago, Raal Gurniss said:

So why aren’t the trollocs 3 foot tall for instance? Lets face it the show paid little heed to any descriptions of the characters that the book had, yet they tried to make the Ogier larger

Again, IMO this just shows the overuse of height as a trope in fantasy, and RJ nor Rafe&Co. are invulnerable to this trapping. Height literally means jack in many circumstances. A lion is shorter than you but will <expletive> you up regardless.

 

2 minutes ago, Raal Gurniss said:

They were portrayed in a lesser fashion than the books and done so often in the show that there is reason why you would struggle to convince people otherwise.

This is an opinion. I can't, nor would I want to try to, dissuade you from your opinion.

[EmreY]

1 minute ago, Raal Gurniss said:

They were portrayed in a lesser fashion than the books and done so often in the show that there is reason why you would struggle to convince people otherwise.

 

So what?

 

Let's assume they made all the men out to be complete gibbering idiots throughout the series.  It would be a very different show to the books - where women are shown to be blithering idiots time and time again (though I suppose that's OK, because they're women) - but one which might be extraordinarily interesting to watch.

[ForsakenPotato]

10 minutes ago, Cauthonfan4 said:

i agree. showing Lan being an amazing tracker would have been a great way to show that wouldn't it? but no. he had to be told how to track his own aes sedai.

Jagad being an awesome general, who is NOT a misogynist, and instead ASKS the women to help support at The Gap could show that he is both a GOOD guy, and a sound Strategist by employing what he has available no?

The boys being seen trained in their weapons could show them becoming something more then "Simple two rivers folk" as they progress with their weapons and become actual threats to trollocs?

 

we had plenty of stuff from the first book that could have easily showcased the men of the show as competent and of equal standing with the women around them. and instead they made them bland and almost entirely reliant on women.

I actually think Lan has a lot more character development independent of Moiraine in the show than in the first book. He has friends that he takes care of. He is shown training with another warder. He has his own interactions with the EF5 independent of Moiraine while she is unconscious. I do really want to see him get more fight scenes and see him build a relationship with Rand, because I feel those things are special and important in the books. I agree tracking would have been a cool addition too. But he's not a non-character and I think his relationship with Moiraine actually feels more balanced and equal than the first book because he's more than a mysterious bodyguard who barely talks.

 

I, a feminist, also want to see more action for Rand and Perrin. But it's a huge leap from "I'd like to see some of our main dudes do some fighting and get more screentime" to "men are incompetent". Personally, I am pretty sure we'll get the boys learning to fight in season 2 and onward, and I'm looking forward to it!

[DojoToad]

31 minutes ago, VooDooNut said:

The first season of a show that takes place in a world dominated by women reflects that dominance?

 

well color me shocked.

Yes, a world dominated by women in the books, but the gap between women and men increased many-fold in transition to screen.

 

31 minutes ago, VooDooNut said:

 

Height differences in RJs WOT series always struck me as needlessly emphasized. Even if all Ogier were canonically as short as fantasy dwarves, would it really change their importance in the series?

RJ thought it was important enough to emphasize.  But you and RJ2 don't.

 

Fantasy dwarves wouldn't be able fight off a trolloc like a book ogier could.  Importance in the series, no.  But important in a few scattered scenes absolutely.

Edited January 7, 2022 by DojoToad
spelling

[Blackbyrd]

2 minutes ago, DojoToad said:

But you and RJ2 don't.

 

You won't post this in the book forums will you? It has to be show bull shit. It's a troll

[Cauthonfan4]

1 minute ago, VooDooNut said:

This is an opinion

no it's not. it's pure fact.

Lan is shown to be incompetent at even tracking his own aes sedai.

The Boys are shown to have next to no character development and even have time they could have easily shined taken from them.

Jagad is taken from a brilliant leader and someone who venerates women and aes sedai and turned into a mysoginist and incompetent leader who gets his people killed.

Thom is taken from his role and turned into little more then a con man.

 

4 minutes ago, EmreY said:

where women are shown to be blithering idiots time and time again (though I suppose that's OK, because they're women)

in the books both men and women are shown to be blathering idiots time and again. and both are shown to have times to excel time and again. it was about BALANCE. Yin and Yang.

The show has clearly decided that needs to not apply.

[EmreY]

1 minute ago, Cauthonfan4 said:

because if the dude is literally a great general nothing he did makes sense. at all.

 

Perhaps Graendal got to him early?

[DojoToad]

4 minutes ago, VooDooNut said:

Again, IMO this just shows the overuse of height as a trope in fantasy, and RJ nor Rafe&Co. are invulnerable to this trapping. Height literally means jack in many circumstances. A lion is shorter than you but will <expletive> you up regardless.

That comparison stretched pretty far.  A lion is not shorter if up on hind legs or I'm down on all fours.  It outweighs me and has a higher density of muscle.

[VooDooNut]

1 minute ago, DojoToad said:

That comparison stretched pretty far.  A lion is not shorter if up on hind legs or I'm down on all fours.  It outweighs me and has a higher density of muscle.

I think you just solved your own dilemma. If the trollocs walked on all four legs they would still be deadly. Height it just a simple (flawed) short-hand for describing superiority.

[Cauthonfan4]

1 minute ago, EmreY said:

Perhaps Graendal got to him early?

nah if his character changed that much wouldn't his friends and family have noticed and said something about him being a dick to women, not employing siege or aes sedai at the gap?

[Deviations]

40 minutes ago, Skipp said:

Because it made for excellent discussion among nonbook readers.  It had them talking and theorizing about the show between episodes.

Nope.  They could have had the same discussion surrounding the three lads.

 

Many here think that the first couple of books were weak and I'll admit that the fourth is my favorite but I'll continue to say it worked extremely well as Jordan wrote it.  Granted the TV version was going to be cliff notes and I would be disappointed with almost every removed scene but they never had to have the five headed power ranger dragon.

[JeffTheWoodlandElf]

8 minutes ago, VooDooNut said:

This is an opinion. I can't, nor would I want to try to, dissuade you from your opinion.

Can we just collectively acknowledge that everything on this forum is an opinion and that forums, in fact, are designed as a place to discuss opinions? 

 

(A glimpse of a forum without opinions) 

"This scene has acting!" 

"This episode had action!" 

"That character is wearing a costume!" 

 

Yaaaaaawn. This "That's just your opinion" response is so tired and I wish we could all just move on from it. 

[EmreY]

8 minutes ago, Cauthonfan4 said:

so why give it to the women then? why not let Jagad show his military brilliance? 

 

Give what?  The Tarwin's Gap encounter?  For the slow burn for the main character.  Giving the Messiah every opportunity to show off at every chance would also make things more boring.  Which is part of the reason why Rand's appearances in the books declines precipitously except when he's not showing off. 

[DaddyFinn]

Don't be shocked if the aiel men won't be close to 190cm-200cm on average. 

[Blackbyrd]

Just now, DaddyFinn said:

Don't be shocked if the aiel men won't be close to 190cm-200cm on average. 

 

Bruh that's the line in the sand- if Aiel ain't 6-5 Michael Jordan on average show is some BS

[Cauthonfan4]

1 minute ago, EmreY said:

Give what?  The Tarwin's Gap encounter?  For the slow burn for the main character

could have easily been fixed by having jagad go "hey would oyu aes sedai (and wilders and whatever) please stand at the top of this wall with our siege engines and rain hell on the trollocs from above"?
makes strategic sense. shown in character with jagad from the books to be an awesome strategist and a guy who supports aes sedai, and gives a guy who isn't named lan a time to shine (at least when lan isn't trying to track something).

2 minutes ago, EmreY said:

Giving the Messiah every opportunity to show off at every chance would also make things more boring. 

you mean like Nynaeve assassinating Trollocs, Tracking Lan and Moiraine, Mass healing many gravely injured people at once, or Wiping out an Entire trolloc horde? yeah she totally needed more time to shine didn't she?

4 minutes ago, EmreY said:

Which is part of the reason why Rand's appearances in the books declines precipitously except when he's not showing off. 

so you couldn't have given mat or perrin or thom or jagad a chance to do something? makes zero sense. especially in light of how much they made Nynaeve into superwoman during Season 1.

[VooDooNut]

2 minutes ago, JeffTheWoodlandElf said:

Can we just collectively acknowledge that everything on this forum is an opinion and that forums, in fact, are designed as a place to discuss opinions? 

 

(A glimpse of a forum without opinions) 

"This scene has acting!" 

"This episode had action!" 

"That character is wearing a costume!" 

 

Yaaaaaawn. This "That's just your opinion" response is so tired and I wish we could all just move on from it. 

If responses are articulated in such a way as to demonstrate that they are opinions and not absolute truths, I'm all for it.

 

...but that's just my opinion.

[JeffTheWoodlandElf]

7 minutes ago, Blackbyrd said:

Bruh that's the line in the sand- if Aiel ain't 6-5 Michael Jordan on average show is some BS

What's definitely gonna be some BS is if they don't at least make the main Aiel characters fairly tall. You can't do this for everyone, but you can do it for the important players and achieve a similar effect. 

[DojoToad]

1 minute ago, VooDooNut said:

I think you just solved your own dilemma. If the trollocs walked on all four legs they would still be deadly. Height it just a simple (flawed) short-hand for describing superiority.

Disagree - height adds reach.  So two otherwise equally matched opponents, I'd bet on the taller fighter most of the time.  But muscle, skill, weight, weapon & armor quality, various other factors also come into play.  But then look at Wolverine - five foot nothing and all muscle with adamantium bones.

 

All those circles to say height is not a negligible advantage all other things being equal...

[EmreY]

5 minutes ago, Cauthonfan4 said:

could have easily been fixed by having jagad go "hey would oyu aes sedai (and wilders and whatever) please stand at the top of this wall with our siege engines and rain hell on the trollocs from above"?
makes strategic sense. shown in character with jagad from the books to be an awesome strategist and a guy who supports aes sedai, and gives a guy who isn't named lan a time to shine (at least when lan isn't trying to track something).

you mean like Nynaeve assassinating Trollocs, Tracking Lan and Moiraine, Mass healing many gravely injured people at once, or Wiping out an Entire trolloc horde? yeah she totally needed more time to shine didn't she?

so you couldn't have given mat or perrin or thom or jagad a chance to do something? makes zero sense. especially in light of how much they made Nynaeve into superwoman during Season 1.

 

Except the point is that neither Nynaeve nor Egewene is the Dragon Reborn.  As far as I am concerned, it makes perfect sense to play up their abilities right now, because the DR is going to become so overpowering that everything else will seem trivial and unimportant.

 

If the final couple of books aren't very carefully translated, this series will turn into the Apotheosis of Rand, and nothing else.

Edited January 7, 2022 by EmreY

[VooDooNut]

1 minute ago, DojoToad said:

Disagree - height adds reach.  So two otherwise equally matched opponents, I'd bet on the taller fighter most of the time.  But muscle, skill, weight, weapon & armor quality, various other factors also come into play.  But then look at Wolverine - five foot nothing and all muscle with adamantium bones.

 

All those circles to say height is not a negligible advantage all other things being equal...

*shrugs* I find it to be an overused physical quality, but I respect your opinion. I just can't help but think of the numerous times in the books when short Aes Sedai "looked down" into tall people's eyes authoritatively despite being sub-5 feet tall. It's like RJ wanted to have his cake and eat it too.

[Elder_Haman]

1 hour ago, Raal Gurniss said:

But if they are only permitted to see positive reactions why would they change the formula?

I don't understand the question. Who is not being permitted to see negative reactions? And what do you mean by "the formula". 

[ArrylT]

On 1/5/2022 at 7:59 AM, Gothic Flame said:

Oh hell yes I am judging harshly.. This was the direction he wanted. The question I'd want answered is who stopped him from this idiocy.

The cognitive dissonance is real;

 

That is basically very similar to the rationale Brandon Sanderson gave to why he decided to finish the series.  ?

[Deviations]

21 minutes ago, VooDooNut said:

Again, IMO this just shows the overuse of height as a trope in fantasy, and RJ nor Rafe&Co. are invulnerable to this trapping. Height literally means jack in many circumstances. A lion is shorter than you but will <expletive> you up regardless.

Not the worst sin in the world for RJ to do this but you have to admit he mixed them up.  Short but intimidating Nynaeve.  Large but gentle and methodical Ogier.  

 

I don't think Aiel were represented as dangerous due to their height, nor were the Ogier.  Their height may have been writing tropes but RJ used those tropes to provide color and distinction.