Season 1 Discussion (Full Book Spoilers) v2.1

[ilovezam]

11 minutes ago, Skipp said:

"with EASE" meaning the certain deaths of 3/5's of them and a possible death of a 4th had healing not been immediately provided.  Also requiring the strongest channeler in 1000 years and the potential of a another benchmark channeler.

"With EASE"

Surely a circle of 13, if not 7, Aes Sedai could pull this off? Nynaeve and Egwene are powerful, but they're not like 10 times more powerful than an average Aes Sedai. If not quite this, surely a group of Aes Sedai they could yeet like 10000 Trollocs into oblivion if they were half as powerful as the Tarwin Gap's circle?

 

Also, the two wilders who could only channel a trickle died, but Amalisa only did because she couldn't stop drawing the Power after the battle was well won.  

Edited January 7, 2022 by ilovezam

[Cauthonfan4]

14 minutes ago, Skipp said:

"with EASE" meaning the certain deaths of 3/5's of them and a possible death of a 4th had healing not been immediately provided.  Also requiring the strongest channeler in 1000 years and the potential of a another benchmark channeler.

"With EASE"

 

UNTRAINED POTENTIAL. Furthermore, Rand couldn't do it in the books without draining the well at the eye of the world.

 

either way point is - 1 woman requires tearing down a building to beat a couple dozen at best at the end of the edmonds field fight.

5 women wipe out 5k to 20k trollocs. big power creep there. whether  you want to admit it or not that is a huge change in power levels.

 

we literally see an entire group of trained aes sedai struggle against a small army of humans earlier in the season. but by the end a group of 5 destroys the biggest trolloc army in memory. Nothing i saw before episode 8 Hinted that even 500 AES SEDAI COULD STAND BEFORE 5000 Trollocs and Prevail.

 

Don't even get me started on what "The dragon could be a female" Does to the entire story either.

 

 

How people can even say this holds a candle to Game of Thrones during the earlier seasons is laughable.

Edited January 7, 2022 by Cauthonfan4

[DojoToad]

27 minutes ago, Blackbyrd said:

You imply I love this- this is untrue. Purely subjecive is a truly great cop out of actually giving critique- and it's not that your feelings are untrue but  to voice them in such a way? Well- fair enough. 

I was replying to your comment on my supposed ideals.  I've given plenty of specific reasons why I dislike the show in many threads over the last several months.  If you feel these reasons are somehow invalid - okay.

 

I feel a lot of my reasons are subjective.  For example, I think the trollocs look like ridiculous creatures that could fit into 'The Dark Crystal" with ease.  We haven't come any further in 40 years?  Other people subjectively love them.  Cool.

 

Clearer or no?

Edited January 7, 2022 by DojoToad

[Skipp]

10 minutes ago, Cauthonfan4 said:

 

UNTRAINED POTENTIAL. Furthermore, Rand couldn't do it in the books without draining the well at the eye of the world.

 

either way point is - 1 woman requires tearing down a building to beat a couple dozen at best at the end of the edmonds field fight.

5 women wipe out 5k to 20k trollocs. big power creep there. whether  you want to admit it or not that is a huge change in power levels.

 

we literally see an entire group of trained aes sedai struggle against a small army of humans earlier in the season. but by the end a group of 5 destroys the biggest trolloc army in memory. Nothing i saw before episode 8 Hinted that even 500 AES SEDAI COULD STAND BEFORE 5000 Trollocs and Prevail.

 

Don't even get me started on what "The dragon could be a female" Does to the entire story either.

 

 

How people can even say this holds a candle to Game of Thrones during the earlier seasons is laughable.

While I agree that channeling is shown to be more powerful in the show than to books I don't believe it will be to much of an issue going forward.

 

You bring up "The Dragon could be female" angle here as an issue.  What issue will it cause that the characters, in universe, thought that the Dragon could be born female now that it have been revealed that the Dragon has been reborn male?

 

It will likely not be referenced again in a meaningful way.

Edited January 7, 2022 by Skipp

[Cauthonfan4]

4 minutes ago, Skipp said:

It will likely not be referenced again in a meaningful way.

we literally still have many fans out there that believe rand is not the dragon reborn even after the final episode.

4 minutes ago, Skipp said:

What issue will it cause that the characters, in universe, thought that the Dragon could be born female now that it have been revealed that the Dragon has been reborn male?

the problem is the fundamental misconception it causes in the story to begin with.

the dragons journey was one that was supposed to be a struggle for many reasons that simply making the dragon a woman changes everything.

if the dragon is a woman you have no threat to the dragon from the white tower.

if the dragon is a woman you have no chance the dragon goes with limited training.

if the dragon is a woman there is no chance of them going mad and breaking the world.

if the dragon is a woman there is little chance the world doesn't unite with ease just by aes sedai machinations with the various kingdoms.

 

Edited January 7, 2022 by Cauthonfan4

[Cauthonfan4]

4 minutes ago, Skipp said:

While I agree that channeling is shown to be more powerful in the show than to books I don't believe it will be to much of an issue going forward.

 

that's not the issue. the issue is the consistency within the show period.

episode 1 shows a single aes sedai struggling against a few dozen trollocs.

later we see a bunch of aes sedai struggle against an army of maybe a few hundred humans.

but i'm supposed to believe by the end that 5 not even full aes sedai can take out 5k to 20k TROLLOCS?

that is inconsistent to say the least.

[Blackbyrd]

3 minutes ago, DojoToad said:

I was replying to your comment on my supposed ideals.  I've given plenty of reasons why I dislike the show in many threads over the last several months.  If you feel these reasons are somehow invalid - okay.

 

I feel a lot of my reasons are subjective.  For example, I think the trollocs look like ridiculous creatures that could fit into 'The Dark Crystal" with ease.  We haven't come any further in 40 years?  Other people subjectively love them.  Cool.

 

Clearer or no?

It's clear that you have your own tastes which are fine. You talk as if CGI is better than puppetry in some visual mediums.... I'm unsure if this is always the case... Yet to piggyback on mindless dislike is in fact a mindless flight. That is clear in any attempt to give something a fair critique- and a fair critque involves  the zeitgeist as much as you or even I might dislike that

[Blackbyrd]

Just now, Blackbyrd said:

It's clear that you have your own tastes which are fine. You talk as if CGI is better than puppetry in some visual

mediums.... I'm unsure if this is always the case... Yet to piggyback on mindless dislike is in fact a mindless flight. That is clear in any attempt to give something a fair critique- and a fair critque involves  the zeitgeist as much as you or even I might dislike that

 

So no- it's unclear besides the most generic of reasons

[DaddyFinn]

7 minutes ago, Cauthonfan4 said:

if the dragon is a woman you have no threat to the dragon from the white tower.

if the dragon is a woman you have no chance the dragon goes with limited training.

if the dragon is a woman there is no chance of them going mad and breaking the world.

if the dragon is a woman there is little chance the world doesn't unite with ease just by aes sedai machinations with the various kingdoms.

Since Rand is still the DR, none of that matters.

[Elder_Haman]

1 hour ago, DojoToad said:

LOL, I'm sure Amazon's metrics are a great success.  They're all patting themselves on the back and drinking champagne.

I know y'all don't want to believe it, but the show is a hit. Whether you like it or not, the parrot analytics data show that it succeeded. 

[Cauthonfan4]

3 minutes ago, Elder_Haman said:

I know y'all don't want to believe it, but the show is a hit. Whether you like it or not, the parrot analytics data show that it succeeded. 

yeah, well they can have fun digging themselves out of all the plot holes they wrote themselves into. the show likely will see a ratings drop now that people will see that the Dragon is Bland boring Rand and not one of the superwomen.

Edited January 7, 2022 by Cauthonfan4

[notpropaganda73]

1 hour ago, ilovezam said:

I don't follow that many shows, so I don't know if it's common, but I feel like for a show that has sorely disappointed so many fans worldwide and received largely middling reviews from just about everybody, with a finale that's largely considered a dumpster fire, some acknowledgement of that would do wonders. Not necessary an apology, mind you, but an acknowledgement that they're listening and might take some of the feedback into consideration.

 

Instead we constantly get masturbatory celebratory remarks that makes it look like Rafe and team feel like they've knocked it out of the park, and that just rubs you the wrong way if you didn't love the season.

 

I get that it can rub people up the wrong way, but they're in their marketing push. I really don't know why anyone would expect anything other than relentless positivity in their public remarks. I mean JJ Abrams didn't acknowledge that the SW sequel trilogy would've benefitted from an overall story plan until 18 months after Rise of Skywalker was released. 
 

I just don't understand the general assumption that not having public acknowledgement and acceptance of criticism is some indicator that they are privately over the moon and oblivious to any issues with the show as well. 

 

I get that people are frustrated, I am too, but there is a tendency among some to just assume the worst of the production at all times which I find hard to wrap my head around. Maybe I am the other extreme to that and that's why I find it jarring, I dunno. 

[DojoToad]

3 minutes ago, Elder_Haman said:

I know y'all don't want to believe it, but the show is a hit. Whether you like it or not, the parrot analytics data show that it succeeded. 

I do not deny that the show has been successful.  I just thought it was hilarious that you held up Amazon as the measure of that success.  There are other sources out there, you know about them, so why choose the most biased source to trumpet about the success?

 

That's all - just taking a jab at you.  Not denying the truth of your words.

[Cauthonfan4]

To all the people who actually Defend the show let me ask you something.

If Nynaeve, Egwene, and 3 basically weak, untrained Wilders can wipe out an army of 5k to 20k.

how in the world is any army the dark one can throw at the world anything close to a threat if they both just link with separate 13 circles of powerful, fully trained, aes sedai?

 

that is a huge problem the show is now going to have to solve.
 

Edited January 7, 2022 by Cauthonfan4

[DojoToad]

9 minutes ago, Blackbyrd said:

 

So no- it's unclear besides the most generic of reasons

You quote yourself a lot.

[EmreY]

Just now, Cauthonfan4 said:

To all the people who actually Defend the show let me ask you something.

If Nynaeve, Egwene, and 3 basically weak, untrained Wilders can wipe out an army of 5k to 20k.

how in the world is any army the dark one can throw at the world anything close to a threat if they both just link with separate 13 aes sedai circles?
 

 

If that is the case, my strategy would be to throw 5K after 5K at them until they all burn out.

 

You are also forgetting the existence of Dreadlords.

[Blackbyrd]

1 minute ago, DojoToad said:

You quote yourself a lot.

yeah- and I see you all up in the book forums making topics.... oh wait.... that WAS me

[Cauthonfan4]

3 minutes ago, EmreY said:

You are also forgetting the existence of Dreadlords.

Every male dreadlord can easily be negated by a full circle of 13 women.

the female dreadlords would require work obviously, but the aes sedai have numbers as their advantage.

3 minutes ago, EmreY said:

If that is the case, my strategy would be to throw 5K after 5K at them until they all burn out.

 

but if 5 can hold off 5k-20k that easily, and 3 of them were weak, what's a full circle of 13 heavily trained, powerful aes sedai gonna be able to handle? see the problem? the show has literally put themselves into a position where they have to power creep the dark lords forces ridiculously in order to compensate.

 

Furthermore now were down a great general for the final battle.

Edited January 7, 2022 by Cauthonfan4

[notpropaganda73]

3 minutes ago, Cauthonfan4 said:

To all the people who actually Defend the show let me ask you something.

If Nynaeve, Egwene, and 3 basically weak, untrained Wilders can wipe out an army of 5k to 20k.

how in the world is any army the dark one can throw at the world anything close to a threat if they both just link with separate 13 circles of powerful, fully trained, aes sedai?

 

that is a huge problem the show is now going to have to solve.

 

If we had seen Queen Eldrene wipe out the Trollocs at Manetheren in the show, how would they solve that problem? Let's just get another powerful Queen Aes Sedai to just wipe them all out, why do we need a Dragon? 

 

The finale was bad and I hated that scene (moreso for the stupid Nynaeve fake-out death) but it's not really a problem in terms of displays of the power and how they handle things going forward in my mind. 

[ilovezam]

26 minutes ago, notpropaganda73 said:

I get that people are frustrated, I am too, but there is a tendency among some to just assume the worst of the production at all times which I find hard to wrap my head around. 

 

Haha, I have to admit that I harbour some bias against Rafe, but I think he inadvertently created that bias when he publicly announced that as a die-hard feminist, he was going to have to update Robert Jordan's unacceptable ideals to modern standards, only to shove it in in the most ham-fisted way possible. 

 

We're a long ways away from Season 2 right now, and I'm not sure "in a marketing push" is quite the term for the timeframe we're in right now. I think people are rightfully worried in thinking: "if they think they've nailed it, then would Season 2 be an improvement?"

 

If anything the messaging seems to be that they're looking to double down on making bizarre changes and to continue downplaying our male protagonists for Season 2.

Edited January 7, 2022 by ilovezam

[notpropaganda73]

2 minutes ago, ilovezam said:

 

Haha, I have to admit that I harbour some bias against Rafe, but I think he inadvertently created that bias when he publicly announced that as a die-hard feminist, he was going to have to update Robert Jordan's unacceptable ideals to modern standards, only to shove it in in the most ham-fisted way possible. 

 

He also dismissed criticism in an interview by making some remark about "Bookcloaks" and how the show wasn't meant for them, which I think was really unfair and stupid.

 

We're a long ways away from Season 2 right now, and I'm not sure "in a marketing push" is quite the term for the timeframe we're in right now. I think people are rightfully worried in thinking: "if they think they've nailed it, then would Season 2 be an improvement?"

 

If anything the messaging seems to be that they're looking to double down on making bizarre changes and to continue downplaying our male protagonists for Season 2.

 

When I say marketing push, I mean more riding the wave of S1. It only just dropped it's final episode a couple of weeks ago. They are going to be still pushing that for a while yet - with all the usual "5 stars!" on the posters and the very small print that the 5 stars come from rafeisagenius.net or something. I think it'll be pretty relentless for at least the month of January, and then the drip drab of S2 news will start doing the rounds. 

 

Do you have a quote about the Bookcloaks thing? The only one I can find is this, which seems a totally fair and balanced answer to me: 

 

Question: Has season 1 performed as you expected? Any thoughts on viewers’ feedback?

Rafe Judkins: “When we started out, we knew the show had to appeal to a huge audience to justify its existence. So we always imagined that we’d likely lose absolute hardcore book fans who’ve read the series multiple times because the show would be too different from the books. And conversely, that we’d lose people who’ve never watched a fantasy show before because it’s too much like the books (which are very high fantasy). The target was always more people who read some or all of Wheel years ago or are fantasy/genre fans but not familiar with Wheel. Which is a huge breadth of people. The shocking thing to me has been how many really really Sarah Nakamura-level hardcore book fans have loved the show despite the departures and how many people who’ve never watched a fantasy show before in their lives are somehow finding their way to this one and loving it, too!”

[DojoToad]

12 minutes ago, Blackbyrd said:

It's clear that you have your own tastes which are fine. You talk as if CGI is better than puppetry in some visual mediums.... I'm unsure if this is always the case... 

I said nothing of the sort.  I think that 40 years after the "Dark Crystal" we can do better than the "Dark Crystal".  Whether that be through CGI, puppetry, hybrid, or something else.

[DojoToad]

27 minutes ago, Blackbyrd said:

Yet to piggyback on mindless dislike is in fact a mindless flight. That is clear in any attempt to give something a fair critique- and a fair critque involves  the zeitgeist as much as you or even I might dislike that

I'm not sure what this means.  Can you dumb it down for me please?

[Blackbyrd]

2 minutes ago, DojoToad said:

I said nothing of the sort.  I think that 40 years after the "Dark Crystal" we can do better than the "Dark Crystal".  Whether that be through CGI, puppetry, hybrid, or something else.

so thinking that all that isn't an opinion? c'mon bro  

 

Not gonna get bogged down in it. I'll be not seeing you in the book forums soon

Edited January 7, 2022 by Blackbyrd

[EmreY]

12 minutes ago, Cauthonfan4 said:

Every male dreadlord can easily be negated by a full circle of 13 women.

the female dreadlords would require work obviously, but the aes sedai have numbers as their advantage.

but if 5 can hold off 5k-20k that easily, and 3 of them were weak, what's a full circle of 13 heavily trained, powerful aes sedai gonna be able to handle? see the problem? the show has literally put themselves into a position where they have to power creep the dark lords forces ridiculously in order to compensate.

 

Furthermore now were down a great general for the final battle.

 

The dreadlords will not be limited to circles of 12. 

 

No, I do not see the problem.