Season 1 Discussion (Full Book Spoilers) v2.1

[ilovezam]

Just now, Lethira the second said:

 

While I don't think it's a good piece of writing, I don't think it fair to tear apart someones first draft.  Every decent piece of advice I have read for writers is 'accept that the first draft is going to stink, go with it, no one is going to see it...'

 

Don't disagree, but it also does highlight the direction he intended to take it in from the start. No more COVID or Barney Harris related excuses for him anymore. 

 

He always intended Tam to be beaten by 1 Trolloc, he always intended for the love triangle to be a prominent thing (in fact it's even more so in the original script), he always intended for extremely heavy-handed sex scenes, heavy-handed Mat robbery scenes, and that note he left with regards to sex scenes is the cherry on top. ?

[Raal Gurniss]

Just now, fra85uk said:

But in fact we will see no improvement but we will also probably see cancellation.

Exactly! If they refute all criticism then they believe it perfect already…And it’s far from it.

[ilovezam]

5 minutes ago, Blackbyrd said:

 

This is a meaningless post and I will not engage 

Well, going forward you might want to take note that quotation marks are often used to emphasize reference to the word itself. That's all there is to it when someone says "I didn't want to use the word '<word>'".

 

A nice example from Wikipedia:

 

Cheese is derived from milk. (concept)
"Cheese" is derived from a word in Old English. (word)

 

 

[Blackbyrd]

2 minutes ago, Raal Gurniss said:

Exactly! If they refute all criticism then they believe it perfect already…And it’s far from it.

 

I'm looking forward to season 2 but- yeah if they refute all criticism then yes- things are going to be worse. The idea though- that rando on the internet knows for aboslutely certain that the show will not learn after 1 season is not an actual critique- it's a point of as ilovezam would say 'View'

[Blackbyrd]

2 minutes ago, ilovezam said:

Well, going forward you might want to take note that quotation marks are often used to emphasize reference to the word itself. That's all there is to it when someone says "I didn't want to use the word '<word>'".

 

A nice example from Wikipedia:

 

Cheese is derived from milk. (concept)
"Cheese" is derived from a word in Old English. (word)

 

 

 

Fer sure bro

[fra85uk]

2 minutes ago, Raal Gurniss said:

Exactly! If they refute all criticism then they believe it perfect already…And it’s far from it.

 

First, I would like to clarify that I don't hope cancellation, I predict it will get cancelled because:

a) is not good enough to have 8-10 seasons of it

b) Amazon will launch its A-list fantasy series with better writers (from Breaking Bad, Sopranos and other high-quality productions), immense budget and a more recognizable IP 

 

[Raal Gurniss]

2 minutes ago, fra85uk said:

 

First, I would like to clarify that I don't hope cancellation, I predict it will get cancelled because:

a) is not good enough to have 8-10 seasons of it

b) Amazon will launch its A-list fantasy series with better writers (from Breaking Bad, Sopranos and other high-quality productions), immense budget and a more recognizable IP 

 

Nobody wants it cancelled! Like anyone else if I don’t like something I won’t watch it! I am not going to watch it to save it though.

[fra85uk]

7 minutes ago, Raal Gurniss said:

Nobody wants it cancelled! Like anyone else if I don’t like something I won’t watch it! I am not going to watch it to save it though.

I am not watching s2 either because, after ep8, i fear it would be hate-watch

Edited January 7, 2022 by fra85uk

[Gothic Flame]

14 minutes ago, fra85uk said:

Amazon will launch its A-list fantasy series with better writers (from Breaking Bad, Sopranos and other high-quality productions), immense budget and a more recognizable IP 

This more so than anything. 

 

Rafe's Reinvention of the Wheel, I believe has only a casual regard when it comes to most if its viewership. (Are there any Rafe fans, i.e. "Rafesworn?")

There's nothing that would draw new viewers which is why I believe Rafe is likely hoping for a schedule when there's no competition to draw away from the casual channel flipper.

 

Lotr is a "name." A brand in fantasy. I should wonder if Rafe even realizes his Wheel isn't even seen as competition...

Edited January 7, 2022 by Gothic Flame
Clarity

[ilovezam]

7 minutes ago, fra85uk said:

I am not watching s2 either because, after ep8, i fear it would be hate-watch

I mean it could be a fun drinking game if you took a shot after every fake-out death or after every lore inconsistency.

 

 

[fra85uk]

1 minute ago, ilovezam said:

I mean it could be a fun drinking game if you took a shot after every fake-out death or after every lore inconsistency.

 

 

I don't want to end up in alcohol coma after 5 minutes of show ?

[notpropaganda73]

27 minutes ago, Raal Gurniss said:

Exactly! If they refute all criticism then they believe it perfect already…And it’s far from it.

 

Who is refuting all criticism? 

 

They did some bad things in season 1, some good, and I am simply hoping that what we see in S2 is more reflective of the creators vision for the show with fewer issues surrounding the production. I don't see what's wrong with that, and I am not telling anyone else that they should be optimistic either. Your initial response was to me agreeing with plenty of the criticisms and saying "in spite of all that, I am still optimistic". I didn't say, "we should all be optimistic". I can tell you why I'm still optimistic, but I don't think anyone is really interested in that.

 

So yeah, I don't need them to justify decisions or answer criticisms, at least not publicly. I don't need that sort of access to the creative process. 

 

 

[DojoToad]

4 hours ago, Hobo said:

Just dont do it? If you have an extensive story of 15 books, just dont tey to cram them into a 6-8 season show. Its like trying to put the square through the circle hole. It just doesn't work unless you cut the square until it isn't a square anymore.

 

I didn't want The Wheel of Time to not be The Wheel of Time but im afraid thats what is happening. Sure all the characters have familiar names but its the wrong story.

I don't think the problem is with condensing 15 books to 8 seasons or less.  They made changes and extensive cuts to LoTR - and I still loved it because it was done well.  I could have accepted changes in WoT as well.  I would have noticed additions/deletions/whatever and still enjoyed it if it had been done well.  It wasn't (from my perspective).  Others are fine with it, from their perspective it was done well.  So they have a show to watch and enjoy.  Good for them.

 

I'll wait for the 'next turning of the wheel'.

[Raal Gurniss]

1 hour ago, notpropaganda73 said:

 

Who is refuting all criticism? 

 

They did some bad things in season 1, some good, and I am simply hoping that what we see in S2 is more reflective of the creators vision for the show with fewer issues surrounding the production. I don't see what's wrong with that, and I am not telling anyone else that they should be optimistic either. Your initial response was to me agreeing with plenty of the criticisms and saying "in spite of all that, I am still optimistic". I didn't say, "we should all be optimistic". I can tell you why I'm still optimistic, but I don't think anyone is really interested in that.

 

So yeah, I don't need them to justify decisions or answer criticisms, at least not publicly. I don't need that sort of access to the creative process. 

 

 

And I said they hadn’t actually even acknowledged any criticism, that in fact the opposite was true! They only acknowledge acclaim…There were no “mistakes made, lessons learned” moments.

 

So how will they improve? How can you really have optimism if they have no intention of change? 
 

They believe they have the perfect blend right now.

Edited January 7, 2022 by Raal Gurniss

[Raal Gurniss]

2 hours ago, fra85uk said:

I am not watching s2 either because, after ep8, i fear it would be hate-watch

Do people really hate watch? Seems pointless to me, they might endure it hoping that it might improve…I’ve done that before, Hell I did it with this show until episode 8 whereupon it became just a but too much and I had to call it a day and turn it off.

Edited January 7, 2022 by Raal Gurniss

[DojoToad]

28 minutes ago, Raal Gurniss said:

Do people really hate watch? Seems pointless to me, they might endure it hoping that it might improve…I’ve done that before, Hell I did it with this show until episode 8 whereupon it became just a but too much and I had to call it a day and turn it off.

Never hate-watched.  I watched the first 3 episodes when they dropped and was extremely disappointed.  I hope-watched episode 4 wanting to see some kind of improvement.  Wasn't there so I stopped.

 

Going back and forth on these forums with both the lovers and haters is more entertaining than the show for me.

[EmreY]

9 minutes ago, DojoToad said:

Never hate-watched.  I watched the first 3 episodes when they dropped and was extremely disappointed.  I hope-watched episode 4 wanting to see some kind of improvement.  Wasn't there so I stopped.

 

Going back and forth on these forums with both the lovers and haters is more entertaining than the show for me.

 

If you haven't watched half the series, how have you become so competent in passing judgement?

[DojoToad]

 

 

3 minutes ago, EmreY said:

 

If you haven't watched half the series, how have you become so competent in passing judgement?

Who says I'm competent?  ?

 

[Gothic Flame]

40 minutes ago, Raal Gurniss said:

Do people really hate watch? Seems pointless to me, they might endure it hoping that it might improve…I’ve done that before, Hell I did it with this show until episode 8 whereupon it became just a but too much and I had to call it a day and turn it off.

Probably more related to this

[EmreY]

8 minutes ago, Gothic Flame said:

Probably more related to this

 

So we shall all have to live with re-runs of WoT for ever and ever? ? 

[Gothic Flame]

Ugh!

[Deviations]

I made an honest, concerted effort to give this series another go last night.

 

1.  I watched all of the origin stories.  Meh.  If that's all we are going to get of Mat's contest with G & G, I'm pissed.

2.  I turned subtitles on so I could catch dialog I'd missed before.

3. I liked Tam.

4.  Egwene didn't just gain permission to wear a braid but was admitted into the women's circle?

5.  Instead of having Egwene tell Rand that she just couldn't tell him about the ceremony, she could have said "Women's Circle business is none of yours Rand Al Thor!"

6.  They absolutely tried to set up a love triangle between Perrin, Rand and Egwene.  Absolutely.

7.  Watching Lan enter, proudly proclaim his full name and the announce Moiraine's entry was comical.   It was like watching later episodes of Seinfeld when the stage audience was supposed to go nuts when Kramer entered the room.  Her intended, significant facial gestures  was like watching Joey Tribbiani from Friends teaching acting with his Smell A Fart Technique.  I've been a fan of Rosamund over the years but not anymore.  She's been given a pass on this forum because of her past chops.

7.  She can see the 'four' ta verene?  They didn't say she had a talent, but she immediately picks them out?  Ridiculous.

 

I couldn't like it and I wouldn't 'hate' watch it so I turned it off and watched a hockey game instead.  I'm so sad because I've been looking forward to this for so long.  It was hard to see GoT make it to TV before this.  Now that this is here, I can't stand it, and I don't think they will continue past season 2 much less 'fix' it.  I hope that it does continue because there are obviously a large number of people that are enjoying it.

 

Lastly, even though this go-round on this forum has been much different than when the books were being written, it's still been fun to participate in a forum again.  Discussing a series of book with people wo love them as much as I do has been wonderful.  I think that traffic here will die down over the months as there is less new information to discuss and if the series is canned, it will die off altogether.

 

Edited January 7, 2022 by Deviations

[notpropaganda73]

1 hour ago, Raal Gurniss said:

And I said they hadn’t actually even acknowledged any criticism, that in fact the opposite was true! They only acknowledge acclaim…There were no “mistakes made, lessons learned” moments.

 

So how will they improve? How can you really have optimism if they have no intention of change? 
 

They believe they have the perfect blend right now.

 

What do you want from them, a sombre apology video on YouTube or something?

 

I have optimism because of things like Brandon Sanderson's comments around the love that Rafe has for the books, some of Rafe's own comments in the Reddit AMA he did after the show first aired, because of how enthusiastic the actors all are for their characters, and because when things went well in S1, I thought they went really, really well. 

 

Episode 8 was a dumpster fire of an episode and how you finish a season leaves the lasting impression, but I am optimistic for all the above and maybe it's just in my nature as well. I am looking forward to S2 because when watching S1, flaws and all, I still felt like I was in the world of the Wheel of Time. Scenes like Ila explaining the Way of the Leaf, Thom, Mat & the Aiel, Tam explaining the wheel to Rand in episode 1, Logain's cold open in episode 4, Lan translating the Old Tongue for Nynaeve, the Blood Snow - I loved all of that and more, and look forward to seeing what they do in S2 where I hope there will be more of that good stuff and less of episode 8. 

[Elder_Haman]

1 hour ago, Raal Gurniss said:

So how will they improve? How can you really have optimism if they have no intention of change? 
 

They believe they have the perfect blend right now.

Because they will not have to deal with the onset of a pandemic halfway through shooting? Plenty of shows get better as they go on - GoT, Witcher, Last Kingdom - were all better in S2 than in S1. 

[Truthteller]

4 hours ago, Lethira the second said:

 

It's a shame that first draft found its way into circulation.  I don't think there are many authors who would be pleased to see work at that stage making it into the public domain.  -With the possible exception of BS who shares a lot of his drafts as a teaching aid.  

 

The only thing it really highlights for me is how little got changed between the first draft and the final product.  While I don't think it's a good piece of writing, I don't think it fair to tear apart someones first draft.  Every decent piece of advice I have read for writers is 'accept that the first draft is going to stink, go with it, no one is going to see it...'

 

It’s funny, because as stilted as the dialogue was, I thought the draft was way better than what they actually did.  
 

All the bad parts are still there, but at least you get the opening, the menace of the figure in black, the scene at the farm, etc.

 

But what it really shows is that this series never had a chance with this guy.  Whatever other good abilities and ideas he may have, his vision of the series and human beings is fundamentally antithetical to the books, and has been from the beginning.