Comparing Wheel of Time to other fantasy adaptations

[Spiritweaver1]

Sorry folks but I am going to redirect the conversation a bit.  Has anybody ever read the Witches of Karres?

It isn't exactly high fantasy but I loved it and so did a number of others.  It is sort of a cross between fantasy and sci-fi.   You get magic and spaceships.  What else do we need!  The author only wrote one novel but several others have taken his premise and written others.  This story could be a great adaptation as long has you have show writers who can keep telling a good story after the original is done.  I like to laugh and this book always makes me laugh.  

 

 

 

[Skipp]

7 hours ago, AdamA said:

It's interesting to see all the praise for The Expanse as an adaptation. I certainly agree it's probably the best the combined fantasy/sci-fi genre has ever done for television in terms of quality. I don't personally have an opinion on it as an adaptation because I haven't read the books yet as I've been waiting for the show to finish to be able to watch it without any expectations. I had a house guest last summer, however, that had read the books and we watched the show and he was complaining constantly. Bobby isn't tall enough. Alex is too hot. Avasarala isn't cussing enough. They combined Camina Drummer and Michio Pa into a single character. Fred Johnson wasn't supposed to die that way.

 

I love the Expanse as a TV show and it is my second favourite book series after WoT.  But yes, there are alot of changes to characters physical appearances and some personality changes.  You mentioned Drummer and Pa were combined. It's true and they also toss Naomi's friend Sam into the character as well.  They cut the character of Bull from Season 3 and gave his story stuff to Drummer and then completely changed the character of Ashford. Like a BOAT load of changes in every season to make it fit the TV format.

 

We forgive it because they cast Thomas Jane as Joe Miller.  Just kidding but this performance is amazing/

 

I am not involved with the Expanse fandom whatsoever so I don't know how these were felt by them.  But I feel the showrunners has done an amazing job with what they have given us.

 

I also hope that Wheel of Time continues and improves each season.

[ForsakenPotato]

5 hours ago, Chivalry said:

Since we're comparing adaptations...I think that ultimately what people will remember are the performances. We've only had one season of WOT, so any comparison is premature.

 

But the GOT actors were terrific. There were plenty of moments in the GOT series where I thought there may not be a finer actor in America than Peter Dinklage. He gave a performance for the ages. 

Yes, he was incredible. There were actually quite a few characters in the GoT books I didn't care much about, but their performances in the show changed my mind (especially Brienne of Tarth, Davos, The Hound, and Cersei -- she was obviously evil but she was an excellent villain to watch).

 

I feel like that's the highest goal of an adaption. Not to exactly retell the story but to bring characters fully to life and make them feel completely real. I think WoT has scenes where they succeed at this, but it's not consistently the case. I know many others are more concerned about plot and lore, but if they can nail the acting and start writing better dialogue, I could care less who does what in which battle. I'm enjoying the show a lot but in a "this is a fun show because it's in a fun universe" vs. a "I would care about all these people even if they had no magic and lived in the suburbs" way.

[Chivalry]

1 hour ago, Skipp said:

I love the Expanse as a TV show and it is my second favourite book series after WoT.  But yes, there are alot of changes to characters physical appearances and some personality changes.  You mentioned Drummer and Pa were combined. It's true and they also toss Naomi's friend Sam into the character as well.  They cut the character of Bull from Season 3 and gave his story stuff to Drummer and then completely changed the character of Ashford. Like a BOAT load of changes in every season to make it fit the TV format.

 

We forgive it because they cast Thomas Jane as Joe Miller.  Just kidding but this performance is amazing/

 

I am not involved with the Expanse fandom whatsoever so I don't know how these were felt by them.  But I feel the showrunners has done an amazing job with what they have given us.

 

I also hope that Wheel of Time continues and improves each season.

Yup, he's so underrated.

[ArrylT]

6 hours ago, Spiritweaver1 said:

Sorry folks but I am going to redirect the conversation a bit.  Has anybody ever read the Witches of Karres?

It isn't exactly high fantasy but I loved it and so did a number of others.  It is sort of a cross between fantasy and sci-fi.   You get magic and spaceships.  What else do we need!  The author only wrote one novel but several others have taken his premise and written others.  This story could be a great adaptation as long has you have show writers who can keep telling a good story after the original is done.  I like to laugh and this book always makes me laugh.  

 

 

 

 

No apologies needed (for me) and thank you for sharing and bringing this to my attention. 

[Scarloc99]

12 hours ago, Chivalry said:

Since we're comparing adaptations...I think that ultimately what people will remember are the performances. We've only had one season of WOT, so any comparison is premature.

 

But the GOT actors were terrific. There were plenty of moments in the GOT series where I thought there may not be a finer actor in America than Peter Dinklage. He gave a performance for the ages. 

I do wonder if WOT would give the same number of Emmy nominations as GOT did.

[Scarloc99]

On the subject of Adaptations, wife and I just binge watched season 3 (the final season) of discovery of witches. I have never read the books so could not compare the differences, it felt like there was stuff cut out, mainly because the plot while really good on TV felt a little light for a trilogy of novels. 

As a TV show we loved it, the way magic was shown was also very WOT in some ways. 

[EmreY]

54 minutes ago, Sir_Charrid said:

I do wonder if WOT would give the same number of Emmy nominations as GOT did.

 

No, because GOT is about feudal intrigues with dragons and ice people and the odd bit of magic added (hence IMO Fantasy lite), while WOT is a lot of magic and nations falling into line, supervised by an increasingly erratic and world-changingly-powerful Dragon (hence "proper" Fantasy), with the added complication of circular time, re-incarnation and a surprise for Buddhists.

Edited January 10, 2022 by EmreY

[fra85uk]

4 hours ago, EmreY said:

 

No, because GOT is about feudal intrigues with dragons and ice people and the odd bit of magic added (hence IMO Fantasy lite), while WOT is a lot of magic and nations falling into line, supervised by an increasingly erratic and world-changingly-powerful Dragon (hence "proper" Fantasy), with the added complication of circular time, re-incarnation and a surprise for Buddhists.

 

More About the what is About the how.

 

GoT, even in its best seasons, has a few weak points but the main strengths of the show are so good that you forget/forgive the defects.

The  problem of WoT-show in comparison to GoT is that there is not one single thing in which it is excellent. 

[Jaysen Gore]

21 minutes ago, fra85uk said:

 

More About the what is About the how.

 

GoT, even in its best seasons, has a few weak points but the main strengths of the show are so good that you forget/forgive the defects.

The  problem of WoT-show in comparison to GoT is that there is not one single thing in which it is excellent. 

I would argue that both the cast and the costume design of WoT are objectively excellent. Too soon to tell if the kids can grow to match the more older, more experienced roster that GoT had to work with, but I have more hope for the cast of WoT than I had for the Stark kids, for example.

 

I will grant that there is no one on the show of Dinklage's quality, but he was SAG / Independent award nominated before GoT, with the Station Agent. We knew who he was going in. And I do think the difference in the FX budgets reflect in the GoT actor roster, since they got much more established actors for their supporting cast.

 

And based on the overall feedback on GoT based on the outcomes of season 8, I would suggest this is now the exact opposite - people are so overwhelmed by its atrocious defects (sexposition, WTF main plots, sub-plots that go nowhere, bad late series acting from J/D/A) , that the main strengths (supporting acting, GRRM writing, subverting expectations) are being downplayed. 

Edited January 10, 2022 by Jaysen Gore

[Chivalry]

18 minutes ago, Jaysen Gore said:

I would argue that both the cast and the costume design of WoT are objectively excellent. Too soon to tell if the kids can grow to match the more older, more experienced roster that GoT had to work with, but I have more hope for the cast of WoT than I had for the Stark kids, for example.

 

I will grant that there is no one on the show of Dinklage's quality, but he was SAG / Independent award nominated before GoT, with the Station Agent. We knew who he was going in. And I do think the difference in the FX budgets reflect in the GoT actor roster, since they got much more established actors for their supporting cast.

 

And based on the overall feedback on GoT based on the outcomes of season 8, I would suggest this is now the exact opposite - people are so overwhelmed by its atrocious defects (sexposition, WTF main plots, sub-plots that go nowhere, bad late series acting from J/D/A) , that the main strengths (supporting acting, GRRM writing, subverting expectations) are being downplayed. 

 

People are re-evaluating the series, for sure. Still, it's considered groundbreaking because it came first.

[ArrylT]

Apparently this person feels the same way about the Witcher as some do about WoT:

 

And this is an account that has 150k followers (so obviously not an account made for the purpose of trashing Witcher intentionally).  Just thought it was an interesting contrast

 

 

[VooDooNut]

I'd love to see a discussion/comparison of how women are represented in WOT v Witcher, because I found Ciri's arc/development in season 2 to be woefully disappointing compared to the numerous moments for women characters in WOT. But I also haven't read the books, so maybe Ciri is like this in the books too?

 

To put it bluntly, I see it like this:

 

WOT = well-rounded, complex female characters with many motives and important  actions. I'm thinking Moiraine, Siuane, Liandrin (far more fascinating than I initially gave her credit for), and Nynaeve for season 1.

 

Witcher = same old tropes we've seen a thousand times, like "brave young girl needs to prove she can be tough to old male guardian". Why was Ciri's training at Kaer Moran so dumb? Her entire arc in season 2 is

Spoiler

overcoming an obstacle course and screaming really loud.

Really lacking character depth here. But again, maybe readers of the books pick up on more nuance than I can see?

Edited January 10, 2022 by VooDooNut
hid boring spoilers

[DaddyFinn]

2 hours ago, fra85uk said:

 

More About the what is About the how.

 

GoT, even in its best seasons, has a few weak points but the main strengths of the show are so good that you forget/forgive the defects.

The  problem of WoT-show in comparison to GoT is that there is not one single thing in which it is excellent. 

GoT is so good I couldn't bother to finish season 5 and never touched it again.

[VooDooNut]

I think I'd watch GoT if there was a version without all the sex scenes. It's too off-putting for me as it is, though I did enjoy most of the first 4-or-so seasons.

[fra85uk]

8 minutes ago, DaddyFinn said:

GoT is so good I couldn't bother to finish season 5 and never touched it again.

This is a Matter of personal taste but It is undebatable that GoT is well directed, extremely well acted and with great storytelling up to s3-s4. 

Now i am no big fan of GoT even in its best days because personally i prefer fantasy series that have more action but GoT first seasons are objetively a masterpiece of modern television and any comparison with WoT show is laughable, the difference in quality being enormous.

[Jaysen Gore]

1 hour ago, ArrylT said:

Apparently this person feels the same way about the Witcher as some do about WoT:

 

And this is an account that has 150k followers (so obviously not an account made for the purpose of trashing Witcher intentionally).  Just thought it was an interesting contrast

 

 

I'm not a woke equal rights type, but even I know that someone using the word wahmen in their review is probably biased

[Scarloc99]

1 hour ago, VooDooNut said:

I think I'd watch GoT if there was a version without all the sex scenes. It's too off-putting for me as it is, though I did enjoy most of the first 4-or-so seasons.

I mean the sex died off from season 4 onwards so if you had stuck with it it probably would have been better for you. 

[Scarloc99]

3 hours ago, Jaysen Gore said:

I would argue that both the cast and the costume design of WoT are objectively excellent. Too soon to tell if the kids can grow to match the more older, more experienced roster that GoT had to work with, but I have more hope for the cast of WoT than I had for the Stark kids, for example.

 

I will grant that there is no one on the show of Dinklage's quality, but he was SAG / Independent award nominated before GoT, with the Station Agent. We knew who he was going in. And I do think the difference in the FX budgets reflect in the GoT actor roster, since they got much more established actors for their supporting cast.

 

And based on the overall feedback on GoT based on the outcomes of season 8, I would suggest this is now the exact opposite - people are so overwhelmed by its atrocious defects (sexposition, WTF main plots, sub-plots that go nowhere, bad late series acting from J/D/A) , that the main strengths (supporting acting, GRRM writing, subverting expectations) are being downplayed. 

I think seasons 7 and 8 led people to jump on a band wagon and slate the stuff only a few years before they where raving about to friends, workmates and family. 
 

I will say GOT from the start had richness of acting royalty, the headline ones where of course known but right the way through the main cast where well known UK actors from stage and small screen with years of experience. It might have been a benefit of filming in Ireland you can pick and choose uk acting talent and not ask them to relocate thousands of miles. Oh and you can get Ed Sheehan ? 

[Scarloc99]

1 hour ago, fra85uk said:

This is a Matter of personal taste but It is undebatable that GoT is well directed, extremely well acted and with great storytelling up to s3-s4. 

Now i am no big fan of GoT even in its best days because personally i prefer fantasy series that have more action but GoT first seasons are objetively a masterpiece of modern television and any comparison with WoT show is laughable, the difference in quality being enormous.

Despite all the issues later on I fully agree, even at the end the actors did a great job with awful material, including the acting many pulled off at the time of release of season 8 on red carpets and in interviews when several years later many of them have made it clear they where disappointed. 

[ArrylT]

49 minutes ago, Jaysen Gore said:

I'm not a woke equal rights type, but even I know that someone using the word wahmen in their review is probably biased

 

No argument there - not saying they are or are not - just that it was an interesting contrast.   Basically for however liberal or conservative we may be on a show, there is going to be someone further right or left on the scale.  

[Ralph]

1 hour ago, fra85uk said:

This is a Matter of personal taste but It is undebatable that GoT is well directed, extremely well acted and with great storytelling up to s3-s4. 

Now i am no big fan of GoT even in its best days because personally i prefer fantasy series that have more action but GoT first seasons are objetively a masterpiece of modern television and any comparison with WoT show is laughable, the difference in quality being enormous.

Thank you for adding the first eight words, but leaving the upper case I on It betrays your original intention, even if "undebatable" and "objectively" hadn't 

 

??

Edited January 10, 2022 by Ralph

[Scarloc99]

2 hours ago, ArrylT said:

Apparently this person feels the same way about the Witcher as some do about WoT:

 

And this is an account that has 150k followers (so obviously not an account made for the purpose of trashing Witcher intentionally).  Just thought it was an interesting contrast

 

 

While I don’t agree with the insistence that women have become more important then men in the series, I do agree that season 2 is not in anyway the books, I am not talking subtle lore or the depiction of a character I mean the entire story has been made up by the writers, what the characters do and where they go. 
 

It would be like the wheel of time starting in Seanchan and the dragon being born there and that being presented as the WOT. 

[DaddyFinn]

11 minutes ago, Sir_Charrid said:

While I don’t agree with the insistence that women have become more important then men in the series, I do agree that season 2 is not in anyway the books, I am not talking subtle lore or the depiction of a character I mean the entire story has been made up by the writers, what the characters do and where they go. 
 

It would be like the wheel of time starting in Seanchan and the dragon being born there and that being presented as the WOT. 

I've not read the books or watched season 2(for some reason I'm not interested at all) but maybe it will pick up again in season 3 and the stuff in season 2 will pay off somehow..

[VooDooNut]

11 minutes ago, DaddyFinn said:

I've not read the books or watched season 2(for some reason I'm not interested at all) but maybe it will pick up again in season 3 and the stuff in season 2 will pay off somehow..

I hope to get around to reading The Witcher books before watching the show again. I just have to finish my re-read of WOT (finally read all of New Spring, and the stuff like Fire In The Ways), and then a first read of LOTR...so it might be a while before I get to that. I'm a big fan of the CDPR Witcher 3 game though.