Comparing Wheel of Time to other fantasy adaptations

[Jaysen Gore]

8 minutes ago, CanisNoir said:

 

To be honest, I think our reaction to that says more about us as viewers than it does the show. Why do we assume that flashy displays of raw power equate to competence or "badassery" instead of someone who quietly struggles with a difficult and gigantic moral quandary and in the end chooses the hard but right path? 

Is Suprman "Superman" because he can leap tall buildings in a single bound, or because he fights for Truth, Justice and is always trying to make the morally correct choice? Considering how many villains we've seen with similar powers, I'd say it's the later that makes him "Superman". 

 

With regards to Lan, his moving back and forth to cover\protect their path is implied heavily in Episode 2.  He goes into the Blight alone and not only survives but locates Moiraine and is the "Rock" she leans upon.

 

Yes, we see flashy displays of raw untrained power from the ladies, but, in my opinion, that is the wrong thing to look to for examples of being elevated, especially when those displays don't really prevent the over all failure that occurrs. 

I really enjoy your thoughtfulness here.

 

I think the problem most people have (those that are having a problem) isn't that the men weren't shown as bad asses per se; in an original story, there would be nothing wrong with any of the decisions they made. The problem is that book moments where the male characters WERE shown as badasses were intentionally removed. And at the same time, "flashy displays of raw power" or almost supernatural skill were added to the girls, Nynaeve especially. The boys didn't get any of their Oh My God! Moments, while Nynaeve and Egwene got some that didn't exist before. 

 

This in turn creates a real fear among some of the audience that the boys will never get their moments to shine - especially Rand - while the girls will get even greater ones when their "flashy displays of raw power" become "monumentally flashy displays of properly harnessed power". Because at this point, we can only take on faith that this will balance out as the series progresses.

 

 

[Skipp]

7 minutes ago, Truthteller said:

Rafe said straight out that he wanted to spread the big moments out more equally.  But the consequence of this is that Rand doesn’t get his big moment of power.  But this ruins the whole theme of the seduction of power.  He hasn’t tasted what you can do with the power yet, and without having actually done it, the power isn’t as seductive.  The temptation is all theoretical and abstract. 
 

And this captures so much of what is wrong  about the series.  Because Rafe is motivated by his own version of equality, and because he thinks the character development of the series needs to be accelerated, he makes changes to the story.

 

But these changes haven’t been thought through, and as a result you get neither equality nor character development.  

I disagree, Rand fought the temptation when he was told he could make the "dream" reality real.  And it did seem he was tempted for a short time before realizing that this wasn't what he actually wanted.

[Truthteller]

1 minute ago, Skipp said:

I disagree, Rand fought the temptation when he was told he could make the "dream" reality real.  And it did seem he was tempted for a short time before realizing that this wasn't what he actually wanted.

You are correct, that is what happened.  My point is that this diminishes/dilutes the theme/argument of the books in a way that serve no purpose.  
 

I mean the whole series is about what power and violence can do to a person and how they can be put back together as a whole person.  
 

Rand needs that power in order to begin his fall, putting that kind of choice at this stage makes no sense.  Indeed it demonstrates to at the people making the show don’t understand the books.  
 

And this is the biggest takeaway, they see books as a series of plot events and, perhaps, as dramatic characters, but they don’t understand that the drama is the effect not the cause, and in diminishing the themes they have lost the drama and the characters.

[Skipp]

4 minutes ago, Truthteller said:

You are correct, that is what happened.  My point is that this diminishes/dilutes the theme/argument of the books in a way that serve no purpose.  
 

I mean the whole series is about what power and violence can do to a person and how they can be put back together as a whole person.  
 

Rand needs that power in order to begin his fall, putting that kind of choice at this stage makes no sense.  Indeed it demonstrates to at the people making the show don’t understand the books.  
 

And this is the biggest takeaway, they see books as a series of plot events and, perhaps, as dramatic characters, but they don’t understand that the drama is the effect not the cause, and in diminishing the themes they have lost the drama and the characters.

Rand still has time to experience that type of power before he begins his fall. Possibly after drawing Callandor and trying to bring the dead child back to life. Or his fight with Asmodean where he wrecks the ruins of Rhudiean and burns the tree of life.  Rands descent doesn't really begin until he escapes the Box 

[fra85uk]

2 minutes ago, Skipp said:

Rand still has time to experience that type of power before he begins his fall. Possibly after drawing Callandor and trying to bring the dead child back to life. Or his fight with Asmodean where he wrecks the ruins of Rhudiean and burns the tree of life.  Rands descent doesn't really begin until he escapes the Box 

 

This supposing that Rand will draw Callandor or that will fight Asmodean.

At this point, I feel that nothing is safe and we are sailing towards unexplored waters and the books are NOT a map that can be reliably followed anymore, to predict what will happen.

 

 

 

[CanisNoir]

24 minutes ago, Jaysen Gore said:

I really enjoy your thoughtfulness here.

 

I think the problem most people have (those that are having a problem) isn't that the men weren't shown as bad asses per se; in an original story, there would be nothing wrong with any of the decisions they made. The problem is that book moments where the male characters WERE shown as badasses were intentionally removed. And at the same time, "flashy displays of raw power" or almost supernatural skill were added to the girls, Nynaeve especially. The boys didn't get any of their Oh My God! Moments, while Nynaeve and Egwene got some that didn't exist before. 

 

This in turn creates a real fear among some of the audience that the boys will never get their moments to shine - especially Rand - while the girls will get even greater ones when their "flashy displays of raw power" become "monumentally flashy displays of properly harnessed power". Because at this point, we can only take on faith that this will balance out as the series progresses.

 

 

 

And that is a fair assessment, however, it is an unfair expectation. This particular critism is based on a fear of events that have not taken place yet. So while the fears may be understandable, I'd say they should not be used to criticize what has taken place. Rafe has also said that he see's "Balance", particularly among the genders, as a major theme he wants to capture. I personally have seen this in Season 1. It hasn't been perfect, but I do see the attempt at a balance and that's what gives me faith that those "Power Moves" I want to see, will eventually occur. I mean he's also stated that Dumai Wells is one of the battles he really wants to bring to the screen so there's that too. Nothing like a bunch of Ashaman tearing up Shaido for a flashy power move no?

 

So yes, given the state of Hollywood and writers today, I certainly understand the fear, I just think that it needs to be tempered a bit. Who knows, Season 2 could make a fool of me, but I don't think it will, at least not on this front lol.

[Deviations]

1 hour ago, CanisNoir said:

Yes, we see flashy displays of raw untrained power from the ladies, but, in my opinion, that is the wrong thing to look to for examples of being elevated, especially when those displays don't really prevent the over all failure that occurrs. 

I personally enjoy the visceral...

Dumai's Wells is one of my favorite scenes in the series.  Mat's battles outside Carhein are another.

 

Maybe it's the latent cave man in me.

[Skipp]

12 minutes ago, fra85uk said:

 

This supposing that Rand will draw Callandor or that will fight Asmodean.

At this point, I feel that nothing is safe and we are sailing towards unexplored waters and the books are NOT a map that can be reliably followed anymore, to predict what will happen.

 

 

 

 

Is well responded with

 

6 minutes ago, CanisNoir said:

 

And that is a fair assessment, however, it is an unfair expectation. This particular critism is based on a fear of events that have not taken place yet. So while the fears may be understandable, I'd say they should not be used to criticize what has taken place. Rafe has also said that he see's "Balance", particularly among the genders, as a major theme he wants to capture. I personally have seen this in Season 1. It hasn't been perfect, but I do see the attempt at a balance and that's what gives me faith that those "Power Moves" I want to see, will eventually occur. I mean he's also stated that Dumai Wells is one of the battles he really wants to bring to the screen so there's that too. Nothing like a bunch of Ashaman tearing up Shaido for a flashy power move no?

 

So yes, given the state of Hollywood and writers today, I certainly understand the fear, I just think that it needs to be tempered a bit. Who knows, Season 2 could make a fool of me, but I don't think it will, at least not on this front lol.

 

 

While we disagree about the quality of season 1 it still does hit the major plot points of tEotW.  Trollocs attack the TR.  Our heroes flee and encoutner Whitecloaks for the first time.  They are forced into SL and get separated.  They meet back up in a major city and meet Loial.  They learn information relating to the Eye and leave said city through the waygates and head to Fal'Dara.  They head through the blight and Rand faces "the DO".  The details are very different when looked at closely but the road map is similar.

[Deviations]

20 minutes ago, Skipp said:

Rand still has time to experience that type of power before he begins his fall.

How many times have we had to endure the "wait, I'm sure they'll somehow show that later" defense?

 

It's not about the difficulty of condensing these book to an 8 year series.  If they have time for it later, they had time for it now.

 

Fever dream before the stupid dragon reveal vs in EF?  I hate that decision.

 

 

[Skipp]

Just now, Deviations said:

How many times have we had to endure the "wait, I'm sure they'll somehow show that later" defense?

 

It's not about the difficulty of condensing these book to an 8 year series.  If they have time for it later, they had time for it now.

 

Fever dream before the stupid dragon reveal vs in EF?  I hate that decision.

 

 

 

The showrunners have said they are trying to eliminate scenes from the book that repeat.  So in theory Rand may not face and defeat "The DO" 3 times in the first 3 seasons.  That is why we are willing to wait.  I still think Rand uses and faces the temptation at the end of the season but I think we will still see something similar to what @Truthteller is refering to later.

[Deviations]

1 minute ago, Skipp said:

The details are very different when looked at closely but the road map is similar.

You can fly from New York to LA but isn't the drive across more interesting?  Jordan took us along an excellent path.  Even if you argue that Rafe is driving (in this analogy) and we'll end up in LA, I don't like the route he's chosen.

[Scarloc99]

1 hour ago, Jaysen Gore said:

Except that the nudity, cruelty and violence was a real draw for GoT.  It's not Porn, it's HBO! The only complaint I ever heard about GoT crossing the line was Sansa / Ramsey / Sansa's end comments to the Hound.

 

I can see a lot of the brutality being sound and post action images, because WoT is going for a different tone. What I'll be really, really curious to see in this regard though, is how much spanking is kept in, and if they don't keep it, how the "discipline" of the Aiel and Tower will adjust accordingly. And there's a lot of domestic violence between Perrin and Faile, which may not go over well.

See I never saw it as domestic violence but more akin to a BDSM type relationship in that Faile wanted it and pushed perrin to deliver it. 

[Jaysen Gore]

6 minutes ago, Sir_Charrid said:

See I never saw it as domestic violence but more akin to a BDSM type relationship in that Faile wanted it and pushed perrin to deliver it. 

Explain to me about consent from Perrin's perspective, please.  He had no power or agreement as to how Faile treated him. And I guarantee if he had backhanded her as a means of starting a BDSM relationship before she had agreed, the world would quite rightly be up in arms. 

[Guest Testeria]

20 minutes ago, CanisNoir said:

I honestly don't understand seeing a lack of "competent men" in TWoT, If anything, the first season showed Men being more competent than the women.

 

She didn't say anything about women, she just said men in the show are not attractive to her. Maybe You just tend to expect from men much less then her? ?

 

 

20 minutes ago, CanisNoir said:

The end of the season saw Moraine fooled and bested at The Eye of the world.

 

I agree she is an complete idiot now in the show.

 

20 minutes ago, CanisNoir said:

Egwene and Nynaeve are almost killed by Amalisa who can't control her own channeling, and Egwene heals Nynaeve without knowing what she's doing. (i.e. That isn't competence). Let's look at the men now.

 

Present it how You want - the cold truth is 5 women did what hundreds of men couldn't. And if You watch carefully You will see that Nyn actually saved Egwene by sucking the power from her and then Egwene revived or healed her. In 5 minutes they did more to save the world then Rand, Lan, Perrin and Matt together for the whole the season. And also brother of Amalisa who I've heard is important in the books.

 

 

20 minutes ago, CanisNoir said:

Mat - See's danger and most likely death ahead, says "no thanks, I've got little sisters to protect" and bails. Yes, this was due to production, but still shows competence. He made a risk assessment, prioritized his sisters and made a choice. 

 

? Oh yes! That is why he is back in Tar Valon - that is what his face tells us: he thinks of the girls ? Have You seen the movie? I'm just looking at the scene and it is more of "I kill You all!" look then "I want You to be happy and safe" so he is better not thinking of his sisters then...

 

 

20 minutes ago, CanisNoir said:

Perrin - Struggles between his raging violence or The Way of The Leaf that is so attractive to him.

 

There is no Perrin in the movie. Perrin did nothing, achived nothing (except killing his wife - I've read on this forum it may be helpful soon for him because he met another girl). If we cut out Perrin from the movie nothing really changes - except Egwene would need other distraction to kill Valda with a knife. Should be no problem really.

 

 

20 minutes ago, CanisNoir said:

Rand - Comes to terms with being the most dangerous person in the world, destined to go mad and kill everyone he loves. Despite this he follows Moirain to The Eye, untrained and ignorant, not because he's incompetent, but because it's the right thing to do in order to protect his friends and loved ones.

 

Sorry but for me Rand in the movie is just a prop that moves other characters like Egwene or Moiraine on their story arcs. Even on his supposedly most important moment we do not even learn what he want: we learn what EGWENE wants. Do he want to have a child? Who cares? He is just a prop.

 

 

20 minutes ago, CanisNoir said:

the morally correct choice

 

I think the problem is what people actually expect of high fantasy. For me High Fantasy is not about people who believe it is better to go back home and take care of their sisters or young boys running from every danger because way of the leaf. That is what Family Drama is for. Or - I don't know - Riverdale YA show.

 

For me High Fantasy is about people like Leonidas, Eumenes of Kardia or at least Alvin York or Benjamin Salomon who changed the tides of history or at least made significant input and died trying. I'm sorry but during the WW2 my grandfather (a simple soldier) managed to fight the Soviets, barely escape capturing by them, fought the Germans and got arrested by them, was put into Oflag, escaped from it (twice), carry his whole family to safety in the countryside, and was smuggling food and people during occupation risking his life - and he was no hero really. Just an intelligent, competent and determined man put by history in dire situation.

 

So tell me - when "heroes" in fantasy show achieve much less then simple people from our world - can You sincerely call it heroic? Is it really High Fantasy? Because from my perspective it is badly made low fantasy youth adult drama.

 

Don't get me wrong, I really enjoy the show because I'm hungry for any new fantasy world and I can completely ignore all the bad writing and acting and technical problems. But what many people expected (and are bitter that they haven't got it) are high fantasy heroic deeds that saves the fate of the world. Like that magic from Amalisa and other girls - that was high fantasy. What Rand or Matt or Perrin did? Not at all.

 

Sorry if too harsh, meant no harm.

[CanisNoir]

11 minutes ago, Sir_Charrid said:

See I never saw it as domestic violence but more akin to a BDSM type relationship in that Faile wanted it and pushed perrin to deliver it. 

 

And let's not forget that Game of Thrones introduced the word "Sexposition" into our lexicon. The nudity was very much an HBO thing, but it's also incorrect to say nobody had a problem with it. 

 

And I agree, I always thought that Faile liked it a little rough and to be yelled at because being able to stand up to that is how she viewed "Strength" and if you didn't push her, you must think of her as being weak. I never saw it as domestic violence. 

 

In the same vein, I do hope they keep the Mat being raped in the show. I thought that part of the books tried to shine a light on a well hidden portion of our culture. It also showed that women in power can abuse that power the same as a man can. I did find it very uncomfortable to read though so I can see why they may take it out.

[EmreY]

2 hours ago, Deviations said:

You've stated your arguments well.  The issue is that we don't get to see 'badassery'.  Perrin killing whitcloaks that were attacking his wolf friends would be one example.  Lan's constant work scouting ahead with Moraine and Nynaeve is a more subtle example.  Even Lan teaching the boys about their weapons is gone.

 

Meanwhile, Nynaeve power heals a bunch of people at once.  The ladies kill thousands of trollocs that made short work of a nation's entire army, etc., etc., etc.

 

I agree and I admit to a niggling disappointment regarding a certain character.  But given how ridiculously OP that character becomes towards the end (and then presumably more) I'm happy with a slow burn.

 

I trust that Rafe is doing a "who is the Dragon"-style reveal, only this time differently, and for all the characters, each of which will get their chance to shine.

[Chivalry]

1 hour ago, Jaysen Gore said:

I think the problem most people have (those that are having a problem) isn't that the men weren't shown as bad asses per se; in an original story, there would be nothing wrong with any of the decisions they made. The problem is that book moments where the male characters WERE shown as badasses were intentionally removed. And at the same time, "flashy displays of raw power" or almost supernatural skill were added to the girls, Nynaeve especially. The boys didn't get any of their Oh My God! Moments, while Nynaeve and Egwene got some that didn't exist before. 

 

I agree, this is precisely the issue.

 

And, unfortunately, it plays into a common complaint/critique regarding unspoken agendas. I'm not convinced this is the case, and I expect we're going to see some of these moments in future seasons. Unlike Nynaeve and Egwene, Mat and Perrin can't channel the One Power, so their "wow" moments generally come later in the series.

 

But we'll see what the WOT team does with Rand. He's the Luke Skywalker, the Harry Potter of the series... the hero of heroes. Any attempt to subvert that will not be greeted kindly by most fans of the books.

[DaddyFinn]

5 minutes ago, Testeria said:

Even on his supposedly most important moment we do not even learn what he want: we learn what EGWENE wants. Do he want to have a child?

We learned that in.. episode 1? When he and Egwene were talking on top of the boulder? He talked of a wife, children, building a house for his family. Sure, he doesn't say "I want" but it's heavily implied. It begins @23:30 in episode 1. Ultimately, he wants Egwene to be free to do what she wants. Not to be burdened and held back with him.

 

[CanisNoir]

3 minutes ago, Testeria said:

 

She didn't say anything about women, she just said men in the show are not attractive to her. Maybe You just tend to expect from men much less then her? ?

 

 

 

I agree she is an complete idiot now in the show.

 

 

Present it how You want - the cold truth is 5 women did what hundreds of men couldn't. And if You watch carefully You will see that Nyn actually saved Egwene by sucking the power from her and then Egwene revived or healed her. In 5 minutes they did more to save the world then Rand, Lan, Perrin and Matt together for the whole the season. And also brother of Amalisa who I've heard is important in the books.

 

 

 

? Oh yes! That is why he is back in Tar Valon - that is what his face tells us: he thinks of the girls ? Have You seen the movie? I'm just looking at the scene and it is more of "I kill You all!" look then "I want You to be happy and safe" so he is better not thinking of his sisters then...

 

 

 

There is no Perrin in the movie. Perrin did nothing, achived nothing (except killing his wife - I've read on this forum it may be helpful soon for him because he met another girl). If we cut out Perrin from the movie nothing really changes - except Egwene would need other distraction to kill Valda with a knife. Should be no problem really.

 

 

 

Sorry but for me Rand in the movie is just a prop that moves other characters like Egwene or Moiraine on their story arcs. Even on his supposedly most important moment we do not even learn what he want: we learn what EGWENE wants. Do he want to have a child? Who cares? He is just a prop.

 

 

 

I think the problem is what people actually expect of high fantasy. For me High Fantasy is not about people who believe it is better to go back home and take care of their sisters or young boys running from every danger because way of the leaf. That is what Family Drama is for. Or - I don't know - Riverdale YA show.

 

For me High Fantasy is about people like Leonidas, Eumenes of Kardia or at least Alvin York or Benjamin Salomon who changed the tides of history or at least made significant input and died trying. I'm sorry but during the WW2 my grandfather (a simple soldier) managed to fight the Soviets, barely escape capturing by them, fought the Germans and got arrested by them, was put into Oflag, escaped from it (twice), carry his whole family to safety in the countryside, and was smuggling food and people during occupation risking his life - and he was no hero really. Just an intelligent, competent and determined man put by history in dire situation.

 

So tell me - when "heroes" in fantasy show achieve much less then simple people from our world - can You sincerely call it heroic? Is it really High Fantasy? Because from my perspective it is badly made low fantasy youth adult drama.

 

Don't get me wrong, I really enjoy the show because I'm hungry for any new fantasy world and I can completely ignore all the bad writing and acting and technical problems. But what many people expected (and are bitter that they haven't got it) are high fantasy heroic deeds that saves the fate of the world. Like that magic from Amalisa and other girls - that was high fantasy. What Rand or Matt or Perrin did? Not at all.

 

Sorry if too harsh, meant no harm.

 

Not to harsh at all and no harm taken :)  With regards to your wife, I apologize, I wasn't trying to comment on what she personally finds attractive in men, I was latching on to just the "competence" aspect. 

 

I think there might be two roadblocks in Season 1 for you with regards to this show and High Fantasy. The first being one of Jordan's intentions when writing the book. He wanted to deconstruct "The Chosen One" trope and cast his hero's as exactly what you said they should not be. People who don't want to go on the adventure, don't trust Gandalf and really just want to go home. 

The second road block being, it's only Season 1.  You can't really have your Dragon going all Dragon in the first season. That they wanted the ensemble of the future books to exist throughout the entire show means that you had to dial Rand down a bit while dialing up the other characters some. There is still plenty of time for our hero's to have visible and flashy heroic moments, so I think a little patience is warranted. 

 

If you look at Game of Thrones first season, none of the "Hero's" had any flashy heroic actions. Ned let his honor get himself killed putting all of his children in peril. Caitlyn captured Tyrion and then let him go, first starting the violence and then losing any leverage House Stark had. Robs "Heroic" actions were all done off screen and only talked about.  

 

I am glad you're enjoying the show, and hope you get some more of what you want as the Seasons go on. 

[Gothic Flame]

11 minutes ago, EmreY said:

I trust that Rafe is doing a "who is the Dragon"-style reveal, only this time differently, and for all the characters, each of which will get their chance to shine.

You mean that not-so-grand revelation of who the Dragon was? That's what you're willing to wait for? You waited for 7 episodes...(and waded through) for something that was pretty much an epic fail imo.

[EmreY]

8 minutes ago, Chivalry said:

But we'll see what the WOT team does with Rand. He's the Luke Skywalker, the Harry Potter of the series... the hero of heroes. Any attempt to subvert that will not be greeted kindly by most fans of the books.

 

Season 1 Rand is not all that different to Book 1 Rand (up to almost the end).  But his heart seems to be in the right place.  And as half the fun (IMO) is reading about Rand growing progressively more paranoid*, arrogant and insane, I believe they sort of have to build him up before they tear him apart in the TV show.

 

* He has a point here, I must admit

[EmreY]

1 minute ago, Gothic Flame said:

You mean that not-so-grand revelation of who the Dragon was? That's what you're willing to wait for? You waited for 7 episodes...(and waded through) for something that was pretty much an epic fail imo.

 

I liked it.  You didn't.  That's fine by me.

[ashi]

17 minutes ago, CanisNoir said:

He wanted to deconstruct "The Chosen One" trope and cast his hero's as exactly what you said they should not be. People who don't want to go on the adventure, don't trust Gandalf and really just want to go home. 

 

Maybe technically true, but the emphasis was on the struggle with the (terrible) responsibility of saving the world and being fated to go mad and die - not so much preferring farming and family life to adventure.

 

Quote

Robert Jordan (paraphrased by Brandon Sanderson)

 

"At its essence, this series is about what it's like to be told that you need to save the world, and that it's probably going to cost your life."

 

Edited January 6, 2022 by ashi

[EmreY]

29 minutes ago, CanisNoir said:

In the same vein, I do hope they keep the Mat being raped in the show. I thought that part of the books tried to shine a light on a well hidden portion of our culture. It also showed that women in power can abuse that power the same as a man can. I did find it very uncomfortable to read though so I can see why they may take it out.

 

TBH, creepy though that element was, I find Alanna and Cadsuane far more terrifying.

[Elder_Haman]

4 minutes ago, ashi said:

Maybe technically true

That's the best kind of true.

But the whole point of the Wheel of Time is the deconstruction of heroic fantasy tropes.