How did the show hold up for you?

[Deviations]

22 hours ago, Weird_Old_Lady said:

So far for me the best change is the lack of RJs spanking fetish. 

You never know.  That doesn't really show up until the girls go to Tar Valon to train.  Who knows what Rafe will come up with? - I will admit, spanking isn't likely going forward.

[ashi]

2 hours ago, EmreY said:

For book readers, it is really not necessary at all.  But remember that people who have no idea of what the bond breaking may cause may end up viewing two different scenes 5-7 years or so apart.  It needs to be driven home very very hard.

Eh, then do it closer to the Last Battle? Lan after Moiraine disappears into the doorway. Or what about, to remind everyone, during the actual Battle. Egwene (though it is the other direction) after Gawyn gets killed by Demandred. Or Gareth Bryne going berserk after Siuan dies (though this may be changed). No matter what, if they want to keep Alanna-Rand-Death-by-Moridin, they will make sure to remind viewers in some way.

 

And it's not as if Alanna's capture brings much tension in the books (though who knows what Jordan might have done). Rand is chill about it (though he might not think of the bond-berserk-possibility) in Towers of Midnight, and doesn't even notice her at first in Shayol Ghul (Nyn. is the one reacting to her).

 

Quote

ToM, chapter 13

 

Finally [Min] exhaled, reluctantly pulling back. "Rand, Alanna is gone. She vanished earlier today."
"Yes. I felt her go. Northward somewhere. The Borderlands, perhaps Arafel."
"She could be used against you, to find where you are."
He smiled. Light, but it felt good to see that expression on his face again! "The Shadow does not need her to find me, Min, nor will it ever again. All its eyes are fixed directly upon me, and will be until I blind them."
"What? But Rand—"
'It's all right, Min. The time when it could silence me quietly—and therefore win—has passed. The confrontation is assured and the scream that begins the avalanche has been sounded."

 

And at the actual event, it turns into a complete non-issue, as Alanna can (and does) release the bond of her own volition, which she could have done at any time.

 

Quote

MoL, chapter 46

 

“I can…” Alanna said. “I can release him…”

  The light faded from her eyes.

  Nynaeve looked at Moridin and Rand. Rand glanced at the dead woman with pity and sorrow, but Nynaeve saw no rage in his eyes. Alanna had released the bond before Rand could feel the effects of her death.

 

Who knows if they will even keep it. It is hardly the most important thing going on at Shayol Ghul (or elsewhere at that time).

 

Regardless, I think it more likely that Stepin's reaction was something they "wanted to explore", because they thought it would make good television, rather than any necessary setup for something in 7 seasons.

Edited January 20, 2022 by ashi

[EmreY]

9 minutes ago, ashi said:

Regardless, I think it more likely that Stepin's reaction was something they "wanted to explore", because they thought it would make good television, rather than any necessary setup for something in 7 seasons.

 

You're most likely right.  (But if so, I shall be very cross in 7 years' time. ?  )

 

I just wanted to put that out because that is why I would have made a big deal out of Stepin's being a bit dyspeptic as a result of Kerene's death. (Hi, @Lethira the second ? ) 

 

 

54 minutes ago, Skipp said:

I could be wrong but I think @Emrey meant that Kerene didn't immediately die.  She was stabbed by the power and Stepin felt that during the battle.  But it was only after Stepin got to the cave that Kerene actually died.  That is how I took the scene but that is totally subjective.

 

Yes, yes, that was absolutely what I meant, and any indication that I ever thought otherwise is wrong.  (Thanks!) 

[Raal Gurniss]

2 hours ago, Adam in Philly said:

Hello all. Just joined this group. I’m just finishing up book 13 and I’m looking forward to joining these discussions without worrying about spoilers!

 

I’m currently reserving judgement about the TV show due to the pandemic interruptions and Mat’s surprising exit. It’s hard to know what they planned vs what they were forced to change. However, I do think eight episodes a season is not nearly enough for a story of this scope. Hoping for at least ten in season two.

I think every WoT fan hoped for a decent season run! 
 

Sadly if the show is going to continue like the first season then many are just not going to care one way or the other.

[Raal Gurniss]

47 minutes ago, Deviations said:

You never know.  That doesn't really show up until the girls go to Tar Valon to train.  Who knows what Rafe will come up with? - I will admit, spanking isn't likely going forward.

I don’t think any training will be given, I mean they have already intuitively mastered combat and healing.

[Juan Farstrider]

9 hours ago, notpropaganda73 said:

 

Mr McLove is not an equal opportunities employer ?

 

I agree with you on the Tinkers but I think they also have some of the strongest writing in the show. Ila's explanation of the Way of the Leaf to Perrin really stands out to me. 

Great acting has a lot to do with that, maybe not in this case but often. An actor sees problems in scripts because they have to act it out. They have to understand what they are saying from their character's perspective. Sometimes it just doesn't make sense. The better the actor, the smarter and more experienced they are really, the easier this is. So, an actor will go to the writer and say "this makes no sense" or something like that. The writer either explains, it, digs in their heals, or makes the changes. A good actor knows what needs changing. A bad or novice actor sends the writer running to the typewriter word processor computer every sentence. Maria Doyle Kennedy might have had input on her explanation, it is common, not just not uncommon. 

That Father Ted episode was something else. The old ladies throw a rock with a note attached, just to say "We just think you're lovely".  And McLove is both horrible and ... well very autistic I guess and needs care but is kinda exploited. If I remember correctly, her character in that episode might be the only one in the entire series who 'played the straight man' and wasn't crazy in some way. 

I didn't realize Eion McLove is based on a real singer, Daniel O'Donnell.

Edited January 20, 2022 by Juan Farstrider
to add the 'strike-throughs' that I wanted to include bot forgot.

[notpropaganda73]

3 hours ago, Juan Farstrider said:

Great acting has a lot to do with that, maybe not in this case but often. An actor sees problems in scripts because they have to act it out. They have to understand what they are saying from their character's perspective. Sometimes it just doesn't make sense. The better the actor, the smarter and more experienced they are really, the easier this is. So, an actor will go to the writer and say "this makes no sense" or something like that. The writer either explains, it, digs in their heals, or makes the changes. A good actor knows what needs changing. A bad or novice actor sends the writer running to the typewriter word processor computer every sentence. Maria Doyle Kennedy might have had input on her explanation, it is common, not just not uncommon. 

 

That's a really great point, one that I'll keep in mind in terms of the parts of the show I enjoyed the most as well. It might be no coincidence that a lot of my favourite moments in S1 have the most experienced actors in the scenes for the most part. 

 

3 hours ago, Juan Farstrider said:

That Father Ted episode was something else. The old ladies throw a rock with a note attached, just to say "We just think you're lovely".  And McLove is both horrible and ... well very autistic I guess and needs care but is kinda exploited. If I remember correctly, her character in that episode might be the only one in the entire series who 'played the straight man' and wasn't crazy in some way. 

I didn't realize Eion McLove is based on a real singer, Daniel O'Donnell.

 

Haha it's an incredible episode, but Father Ted was a brilliant show all round. Daniel O'Donnell is from the same town that my Mum grew up in, in Co.Donegal - he's essentially the same as the TV-personality Eoin McLove, but nothing like the "real" McLove in the show. 

[Juan Farstrider]

1 minute ago, notpropaganda73 said:

It might be no coincidence that a lot of my favourite moments in S1 have the most experienced actors in the scenes for the most part. 

 

 

Daniel O'Donnell is from the same town that my Mum grew up in, in Co.Donegal - he's essentially the same as the TV-personality Eoin McLove, but nothing like the "real" McLove in the show. 

It is no coincidence, just because what great acting brings to a role. What is tough to catch is when great acting saves bad writing, or when very nuanced and precise writing is conveyed properly by great acting where it would be lost by bad acting. 

Very cool about Daniel O'Donnell and your mum. I'm glad no one is like the real McLove! What a turn to see that as his real deal as a character from the TV personality. The characters in that show are so over the top and amazing. 

[Jake Sykwalker]

On 1/15/2022 at 5:55 AM, fra85uk said:

 

In principle something can be worth watching AND too far from the source material (i.e. Shining).

 

But this is not the case.

 

This point is very true. One of the best classic SciFi examples is Starship Troopers.  The movie couldn't possibly be more different from the book.  However it finds its own stride and is a decent silly space movie where the character does grow through his experiences.  I didn't pay attention to any outrage by book fans, but most people I know liked the movie because it was cheesy SciFi and good escapism if not exactly a good movie.  

 

The book however was a very serious social commentary.  One I would highly suggest reading if you have never read it.  It is about an entitled kid trying to find his way to do something meaningful with his life.  

 

While Starship Troopers was a box office failure it has a dedicated following and isn't bad if you watch it as not taking itself seriously.  They also do have key moments from the book in the movie to show they understood the source material.

 

If you make something interesting people will watch it even if it is different than the book.

 

A reverse example is Forrest Gump.  Great movie, but extremely different from the book, but in a good way.  In the book Forrest was a pot head who wasn't innocent.  

 

 

 

 

[Jake Sykwalker]

On 1/15/2022 at 10:34 AM, Truthteller said:

This is quite fair, and I agree with the second and third paragraphs.

On women in the books, I do think the portrayal is often flat, with the younger women in particular.  I think the book does a better job with older women.  Moiraine in particular I thought had a lot of depth, Verin, Sorilea, all great characters.  Nyneave, Egwene, and Elayne on the other hand struck me somewhat as caricatures.  However, people seemed to like those characters . . . Anyway, I completely agree that if there is an area where the show could have improved on the books it is by making those three characters in particular more dimensional.

 

 

 

This is a common problem for many writers.  It is very obvious that RJ based the characters on himself and his wife.  Since they were both older at the time they couldn't relate to the younger characters.  Instead they projected onto them how they thought they should act.

 

As a funny aside this sometimes works.  In Scooby Doo the characters were based on how Joe Ruby and Ken Spears thought teenagers acted based off of other TV shows and comic books.  Turns out it was very funny if not exactly accurate.  

 

[Juan Farstrider]

5 minutes ago, Jake Sykwalker said:

 

This is a common problem for many writers.  It is very obvious that RJ based the characters on himself and his wife.  Since they were both older at the time they couldn't relate to the younger characters.  Instead they projected onto them how they thought they should act.

 

As a funny aside this sometimes works.  In Scooby Doo the characters were based on how Joe Ruby and Ken Spears thought teenagers acted based off of other TV shows and comic books.  Turns out it was very funny if not exactly accurate.  

 

this reminds of how the guy who wrote the screenplay for Heathers wanted to capture the dialogue of the kids he was writing about. I think the story goes that he tried hanging out where they might hang out, realized he hated it, wasn't a kid, didn't like kid things, and had to find another way. He ended up making up his own way for those kids to speak and it ends up being a strength in what he wrote. 

[Jake Sykwalker]

On 1/20/2022 at 4:21 PM, Juan Farstrider said:

 What is tough to catch is when great acting saves bad writing

Not every show can have Alan Rickman starring in them.  Robin Hood Prince of Thieves owes him big time.  Harry Potter and Die Hard wouldn't be as good without him either. 

[Juan Farstrider]

2 hours ago, Jake Sykwalker said:

Not every show can have Alan Rickman starring in them.  Robin Hood Prince of Thieves owes him big time.  Harry Potter and Die Hard wouldn't be as good without him either. 

how great is the moment in Galaxy Quest when he finally says "by Grabthar's hammer, by the sons of Warvan, you shall be avenged!" and it's made that because all the ways he showed disdain for it. Here's a great compilation: 

 

[wastingtime]

As a tv show, I give it a 7.5/10 overall, with some episodes better but unfortunately some episodes, and scenes within episodes, significantly weaker.

As an 'adaptation', I'd barely give it a 3.5/10.

I get a lot of the necessary changes for length/streamlining/character continuity (ie making sure good actors aren't being hired for only a few scenes per entire series) etc, etc.

I like that the characters no longer look like the predominantly Aryan fan art the series traditionally inspired, awesome as the art itself often is.

I dislike that they aged the characters up to apparently avoid the 'teen drama' angle ... but then provided the EF5 with dialogue and motivation often sounding like teen drama anyway.

I like the actors in general and think they all did pretty well with what they were given script-wise.

It is visually impressive most of the time.

Episode 8 was the weakest, both because it strayed so far off cannon, and, mostly, because it violated the 'realism' behind the One Power so regularly that it makes the upcoming stakes now seem inconsequential. 

I did like the idea of Rand/Ishmael battling mentally rather than physically ... but I would not have been adverse to at least a little bit more sword action from Rand & Lan throught S1.

It's been a fair while since I read the first books in the series - I only finished A Memory Of Light last year - so I definitely wouldn't consider myself a 'Bookcloak', but I do mostly subscribe to some of their key gripes (well, apart from the thinly disguised whinges about too many protagonists being too dark, and diatribes against 'feminism').

Ultimately, I figure any changes to an existing story for screen suitability etc need to keep both characterisation and the fundamental in-world physics, law, lore etc clear and understandable. So far, the show has changed a few too many of these without making it any better. Or clearer. Mat's family life & character being the perfect example of this.

 

Mostly I found the show entertaining enough despite the fact it has glaring faults in the writing department that really need to be fixed if the producers expect the show to succeed long-term. 

The source material is rich enough that it could be amazing. So far I have limited faith that the movers and shakers in charge of the project have the skills to raise it to that level. I'm hoping S2 proves me wrong. However, if it is true that it will still only be 8 episodes long, I can't see the pacing slowing down to allow for deeper characterisation, especially as the world expands & the characters physically diverge to all corners of the wetlands and beyond.

 

Not that Amazon are likely to hear this, but they could do worse than employ the writers/producers etc that managed to turn one long running, complex, character driven SFF epic novel series (The Expanse) into gripping, character driven, small screen fare, and parachute them into try and 'polish' WOT further.

[DaddyFinn]

On 1/29/2022 at 8:46 AM, wastingtime said:

Not that Amazon are likely to hear this, but they could do worse than employ the writers/producers etc that managed to turn one long running, complex, character driven SFF epic novel series (The Expanse) into gripping, character driven, small screen fare, and parachute them into try and 'polish' WOT further.

The Expanse had the book authors as producers. That must have helped a ton.

[wastingtime]

3 hours ago, DaddyFinn said:

The Expanse had the book authors as producers. That must have helped a ton.

Definitely. That should at least make them more experienced, more consistent writers than what we have seen so far though. It was never going to completely live up to what most of us had built up inside our own heads, so a lot of people are being a touch too salty about the show IMO, but it's pretty obvious that the characterisation, dialogue & worldbuilding have been inconsistent enough across S1 to leave the show as "passable" rather than "gripping" viewing in the minds of many, many fans old & new. I actually think S2 will probably be better... but I wouldn't say that i was confident enough to ever bet anything of value on that prediction yet!?

As an aside, it was interesting seeing how many of the actors in The Expanse also ended up serving as producers, co-producers, directors etc. It seems like it became a real passion project for them. I read Rosemund Pike has put in behind the camera work for WOT already, but I wonder if more of the actors having the ability/opportunity/desire to do so in the future will improve the depth of the story???    

[Anders_nilsson]

It took covid-19 to make me see the whole show. 
 

overall its okey and entertaining. Really good when there is action and I think the actors are doing a good job without a great script. 
 

The biggest problem as I see it is that everything is going too fast, but then they slow everything down with too long relationship talks. Did the long episode with that heartbreaked whatcher bring the story forward? I think not. 
 

the ”woke-stuff” is a mess. There are no distinguish cultures. Everyone looks the same……exept for skin colour ofc. 
 

Also; Men bad, women good. As an adaption its terrible. What happened to Mat and Perrins charachters? 
 

To blend political topics of today with an epic fantasy is a big yawn. 
 

the new lotro show is going to be really interesting. :)

[Yojimbo]

12 hours ago, DaddyFinn said:

The Expanse had the book authors as producers. That must have helped a ton.

My wife and I are huge fans of the expanse.  Both the books and the show.   They did an amazing job in translating the books.  Yes, they had to leave out tons and tons of stuff, but the essence of the story came through, and the characters were true to who they are in the books.  All in all, one of the best adaptations I have ever seen.   One of the best series of books ever and one of the best sci-fi series on tv ever, IMO.

[DojoToad]

On 1/27/2022 at 4:40 PM, Jake Sykwalker said:

 

This point is very true. One of the best classic SciFi examples is Starship Troopers.  The movie couldn't possibly be more different from the book.  However it finds its own stride and is a decent silly space movie where the character does grow through his experiences.  I didn't pay attention to any outrage by book fans, but most people I know liked the movie because it was cheesy SciFi and good escapism if not exactly a good movie.  

 

The book however was a very serious social commentary.  One I would highly suggest reading if you have never read it.  It is about an entitled kid trying to find his way to do something meaningful with his life.  

 

While Starship Troopers was a box office failure it has a dedicated following and isn't bad if you watch it as not taking itself seriously.  They also do have key moments from the book in the movie to show they understood the source material.

 

If you make something interesting people will watch it even if it is different than the book.

 

A reverse example is Forrest Gump.  Great movie, but extremely different from the book, but in a good way.  In the book Forrest was a pot head who wasn't innocent.  

 

 

 

 

Difference being I liked Gump and Starship Troopers.  They were both well made - even if Gump was tongue-in-cheek and Troopers was silly.  They were both well written and executed IMO.

 

I read Troopers and didn't mind the changes.  Didn't even realize there was a Gump book.

 

WoT, however, blech...

[Deviations]

38 minutes ago, DojoToad said:

I read Troopers and didn't mind the changes. 

Funny.  When I watched that, I thought, hmm...  I don't remember it that way but I enjoyed the heck out of that movie.  I still watch it from time to time.

 

This show made me angry within minutes and that continued through every episode.  The blood snow scene may have been the exception.  In retrospect, it would have been nice to see Tam fight but it's clear we are getting none of that.  We get to see Tigrane be a badass, but not Tam.  Nope, not him.....  At least they didn't have him be the person that killed Tigrane.  I guess we have to be pleased with that crumb.

[Juan Farstrider]

On 1/20/2022 at 12:58 PM, Raal Gurniss said:

I don’t think any training will be given, I mean they have already intuitively mastered combat and healing.

they're going there to teach!

[wastingtime]

On 1/31/2022 at 7:10 AM, Yojimbo said:

My wife and I are huge fans of the expanse.  Both the books and the show.   They did an amazing job in translating the books.  Yes, they had to leave out tons and tons of stuff, but the essence of the story came through, and the characters were true to who they are in the books.  All in all, one of the best adaptations I have ever seen.   One of the best series of books ever and one of the best sci-fi series on tv ever, IMO.

Yes, I was massively impressed with the show, even the truncated last season & the unanswered threads, and have been blabbing to anyone who will listen about how much they NEED to watch it if they haven't previously come across it... BUT, I haven't read any of the books yet (definitely on my 'to do' list though), so maybe if I had, I would have been ambivalent/disappointed about the show???

Somehow I don't think so though. The writing was just too good; every character was relatable, believable and nuanced, both in actions and motivations, whether they were good or bad. And because the characters were so 'real', even the most unrealistic aspects of the SFF genre seemed that much more acceptable as an audience member.

On top of that, everything from science to culture to military strategy was introduced through believable, tight dialogue, so as an unfamiliar audience member, I understood what was happening @ a moment-to-moment level even though the overarching mysteries of each episode & season were still waiting. Also, through this, we got to see the  characters as people, work out their personalities, relationships etc and naturally build up our own connections with them.

 

For me, that's what season 1 of WOT didn't manage to do with any consistency.

Fingers crossed they improve.

Edited February 1, 2022 by wastingtime

[GoldeneyesND]

There are a lot of things about the show that I just don't enjoy but I've learned that many of these can be chalked up to outside factors and COVID restrictions (not being able to have enough trolloc actors for the battle scenes at the end),  Barney leaving in the middle of an episode (forcing one of the most counterintuitive "I walk away" moments in any series I've seen), asking for 2 extra episodes and being denied. My main concern is what I would term poor writing decisions: 

Spoiler

sending the Reds to deal with Mat feels lazy and not at all what the character would do; resurrection is now a thing; Moiraine just lets Mat walk away after saying she would rather kill them all rather than let the Dark One take one of the Emonds Fielders; Perrin's whole arc is dull and doesn't progress him as a character.

These are choices that were consciously made that for me really cast into doubt whether I'm going to enjoy future seasons. The biggest issue for me was pacing, it was just off - going slow when things could be skipped and rushing through bigger plot points. I give it a 4.5/10 and hope things get better. 

[EmreY]

15 hours ago, GoldeneyesND said:

sending the Reds to deal with Mat feels lazy and not at all what the character would do

 

Well, she has to send someone and I think she has a choice of Reds, Blues, Greens and maybe Yellows.  I think the Yellows would stay at home rather than go traipsing around, the Blues won't work because it'll raise suspicions, the Greens might work but they might have other ideas.  Which leaves the Reds who will likely be hostile and them dumbfounded but will do the trick.

 

15 hours ago, GoldeneyesND said:

resurrection is now a thing

 

No, exaggerated makeup is. ? 

 

15 hours ago, GoldeneyesND said:

Moiraine just lets Mat walk away after saying she would rather kill

 

Well, I suppose she could have killed him then and there rather than let him walk away, but other than that there's no helping the fact that the actor was out.

 

15 hours ago, GoldeneyesND said:

Perrin's whole arc is dull

 

And all over the place.

[Deviations]

6 hours ago, EmreY said:

there's no helping the fact that the actor was out.

Why couldn't they just recast and quickly keep shooting?  No one has provided a solid answer for that question.  They had to have had many of the actors that originally auditioned for the part in mind that would have been available.