tv show spoilers S1E8: The Eye of the World

[Yojimbo]

16 minutes ago, DigificWriter said:

It seems to me that a good majority of the criticisms that some of the people who are unsatisfied with the WoT TV series have been voicing since Christmas Eve stem primarily from a lack of understanding of  - or unwillingness to understand - the realities or nuances of how stories are told in a particular medium (in this case, television), which doesn't really expose flaws in the show so much as it does expose the limits of their own points-of-view.

 

There also seems to be a large amount of blowback stemming almost entirely from misplaced expectations about what the concept of 'fidelity to the source material' means, which, again, doesn't so much expose flaws in the show so much as it does communicate a dissonance between what some people were expecting to get versus what Rafe and his team are delivering.

I think for many of us our point of view is that the writing is so piss poor that much of the fun and beauty of the story has been lost. 

 

personally, I was expecting a competently written story that at least resembled what we read.  So, yeah, my expectations were wrong.

Edited December 29, 2021 by Yojimbo

[Scarloc99]

1 minute ago, WoTwasThat said:

 

The “rules” to LOTR are largely the backstory - that Sauron created the rings of power as a trap, how the One Ring corrupts, the king without a crown, the elves departing - and somehow all of this was told quite well. Mostly in the first installment. 
 

 

 

Um, that’s not a good characterization of GOT. GOT thrives on the complexity of the interaction between the characters and houses, and how most everyone is neither 100% good or bad. Those are GOT’s “rules” and again, the TV adaptation did a marvelous job remaining largely faithful to those intricacies. 
 

The same could be said for HP - plenty of rules, and at least some or enough of them were conveyed to the screen.

 

All of these examples demonstrate what a terrible job WOT has done by comparison. 

The one thing GT didn't do was drive away viewers by having wizards, magic etc. I know several people who insist they hate fantasy but loved GOT because it wasn't full of all that "fantasy mumbo jumbo" 

I am really struggling to understand your point though, you say WOT has done a terrible job describing the rules, but the people I talk to understand that male and female magic is different, they understand that warders are bonded to Aes Sedai, they understand the dragon is resurrected. 

The confusion about the dragon could be female, I wish that rule had been cleared up by the end of season 1 but they are continuing a storyline of Morraine where she is, at the end of episode 8, clear in her mind that everything she thought she knew is wrong. The Dragon wasn't who she thought it was, the final battle wasn't what she thought it was. She will, I imagine spend season 2 learning those rules that she didn't understand, Rafe has already said that he has written her an entire arc in season 2 when in the book she barely gets a chapter to herself. I imagine by the end of season 2 she will be the clear headed, all knowing Morraine we get in the books. Just in time for the audience to watch her "die" in season 4 

[WoTwasThat]

1 hour ago, DreadParrot said:

In terms of the discussion over how they have altered the dynamics of saidar and saidin…

 

*They seem to be intentionally murking the waters here to prevent audience from having to learn a lot of rules and lore.

 

*They seem to be avoiding the need for training and teaching. Those aspects have virtually vanished from the written story. No scenes of Lan drilling the EF5, no scenes of Moiraine or other sisters working with Egwene/Nynaeve. Moiraine intentionally avoiding either attempting to help Rand understand his power, explain she is incapable of assisting him, or showing she actually can assist him. Instead she avoids the topic because it would contribute to his insanity. Intuitive learning seems to be their preferred route. 
 

*There has been painfully little distinction between the different flows, limitations on how it can be used, and now show-canon alterations to the rules of channeling. Linked channelers being forcibly overdrawn and burned out is a tangible and important change. 
 

why does this matter? Anyone who read or watched Death Note would potentially agree that working within the rules established by the Note was a huge part of the appeal. Most readers of the Wheel are endeared to the lore and very detailed dynamics of channeling. The whole power split and gender driven system was intentionally designed to eliminate mumbo jumbo Latin phrases and some hand waving to solve problems. The system designed helped drive the story and added nuance and layer. The show is skipping over those aspects or diluting them either because they lack understanding themselves, lack the confidence in an audience to follow the trail they need to lay down, or simply don’t care about the importance. 
 

 

Well said. 

[DigificWriter]

9 minutes ago, CanisNoir said:

Game of Thrones was a fairly faithful adaption, until they ran out of source Material

 

I disagree with this assessment/appraisal of why GoT ultimately failed; when you look at the actual nature and tenor of the blowback that the showrunners on that series received, it wasn't a lack of source material to draw from that caused people's outrage, but the callous way that they (the showrunners) betrayed their audience by completely assassinating the characterization and development of several key characters and exposing the fact that they (the showrunners) had been lying to their audience about the ultimate trajectory of those characters' stories for pretty much the show's entire run up to that point.

[RhienneAgain]

1 hour ago, Mirefox said:

This is a monumental issue, too.  If they want to change up some stories and call it a different turning of the Wheel, ok, let’s have that conversation.  But different turnings don’t break the fundamental rules by which the world works.  Rules/consistency/etc. are the basic framework they needed to work within but they want to change even that.

I completely agree and I'm not trying to justify it.  I'm just pointing out that if the one power in the TV series isn't bound by most of the rules surrounding it from the books its futile arguing about specific 'misuses' of the one power in the show, or trying to work out what a scene is trying to show in book terms when actually those rules no longer apply here.

 

For example, a lot of us are trying to figure out what is intended from the circle scene with Amalisa, Nynaeve, and Egwene but we're nearly all making assumptions about the use of the one power that stem from the books.  If most of these don't apply in the show, then a lot of the back and forth is largely irrelevant.

Edited December 29, 2021 by RhienneAgain

[CanisNoir]

8 minutes ago, DigificWriter said:

 

I disagree with this assessment/appraisal of why GoT ultimately failed; when you look at the actual nature and tenor of the blowback that the showrunners on that series received, it wasn't a lack of source material to draw from that caused people's outrage, but the callous way that they (the showrunners) betrayed their audience by completely assassinating the characterization and development of several key characters and exposing the fact that they (the showrunners) had been lying to their audience about the ultimate trajectory of those characters' stories for pretty much the show's entire run up to that point.

 

I agree completely, the show failed because the Show Runners abandoned it and the last few seasons show it. The point I was getting at, was that I felt they pretty much had to faithfully adapt the Source because they didn't actually know how the characters got from the beginning to the ending. (i.e. The books weren't complete yet). This limited them, in my opinion, on how much they could change\alter the source because of "the ripple effect". They still made some changes, of course, but most of the major changes didn't really occur until after it was clear they were going to have to write the ending on their own. This is why we got the "character assassinations" and arcs that played more into who fan favorite characters were instead of what made more narrative sense.

 

I just really think having a completed work to draw upon gives more freedom to adjust the adaptation. Which is why Rafe could pitch the story as an 8 season show keeping the Heart and Spine of the story, something D&D never could have pitched.

[RhienneAgain]

1 hour ago, Sir_Charrid said:

Did it though, at any one time the cast was not massive, as characters died others where introduced, but also those characters could be guaranteed an appearance every season, meaning a regular pay check. I am trying to think and there are no characters who drop out for entire seasons. 

WOT you are unlikely to get that same consistency if you are outside of the main cast. So as a jobbing actor you will drop the casual gig for a proper regular thing very quickly, meaning it makes more sense to keep the cast tight. Also COVID, that is a serious consideration that needs to be considered. 

I get your points but I feel like the number of characters main enough to be in the TV series (and thus for this to effect) and affected by season-long absences is very low (I can't think of any beyond Moiraine..?).  The rest of the bunch could be pretty much included in every season with the ensemble approach (e.g. splicing bits of the later series books together so that we don't have whole seasons dominated by EgwenE, Perrin, whoever).

[DigificWriter]

@CanisNoir Given that the characters whose characterization and arcs the showrunners assassinated were fan-favorites, I still disagree that the root cause of how GoT turned out was a lack of source material.

 

We've gotten off-topic, though, so back to discussing WoT.

[CanisNoir]

3 minutes ago, DigificWriter said:

@CanisNoir Given that the characters whose characterization and arcs the showrunners assassinated were fan-favorites, I still disagree that the root cause of how GoT turned out was a lack of source material.

 

We've gotten off-topic, though, so back to discussing WoT.

 

lol Very fair point, and in the end I think we probably agree more than disagree. To tie it back in with WOT, it just seems to me that too many people are placing too much of an emphasis on the changes Rafe made in the show and claiming those choices indicate a lack of respect for the source. They often use GOT as an example of successful faithful adaptation, and I disagree with that comparison. 

 

Do I agree with all of the choices made, no, but do I believe they respect the source material? Absolutely. Episode 8 was severely hampered by real world issues, and it showed. I think, as a book reader, as long as I know the forces behind the show love the books as much as I do, I'm okay with seeing their vision of that source material, knowing it will be different from mine. 

[WoTwasThat]

28 minutes ago, CanisNoir said:

 

I agree completely, the show failed because the Show Runners abandoned it and the last few seasons show it. The point I was getting at, was that I felt they pretty much had to faithfully adapt the Source because they didn't actually know how the characters got from the beginning to the ending. (i.e. The books weren't complete yet). This limited them, in my opinion, on how much they could change\alter the source because of "the ripple effect". They still made some changes, of course, but most of the major changes didn't really occur until after it was clear they were going to have to write the ending on their own. This is why we got the "character assassinations" and arcs that played more into who fan favorite characters were instead of what made more narrative sense.

 

I just really think having a completed work to draw upon gives more freedom to adjust the adaptation. Which is why Rafe could pitch the story as an 8 season show keeping the Heart and Spine of the story, something D&D never could have pitched.

 

I agree with your point that having a completed series probably gave Rafe & Crew a bit more confidence to make changes without the fear of running down a dead end. That makes sense. But I don't think that explains or justifies the magnitude of changes made so far, and I think it's tough to characterize a pitch as "keeping the Heart and Spine of the story" (if that's what you were doing) when one jettisons fundamental concepts like the distinction between Saidar / Saidin and the DR channeling Saidin.

[CivBrit]

I'm generally fine with showrunners deviating from source material provided the spirit of the story is preserved. The Witcher is doing this, and (at least in my opinion) it's making for great TV. 

 

Episode 4 of Wheel of Time is a good example. It plays out significantly different to the book, but mostly I thought it was a smart decision. Although that Episode was tense and quite action packed, it also managed to do a lot of world building without feeling too exposition heavy. We learn that men claim the title of Dragon and use it to rally followers. We learn that the Aes Sedai are sorted by color or 'Ajar' according to their function, and that although they're ostensibly one sisterhood united under one leader, they in fact disagree and seem rife with internal politics. We see how dangerous and powerful some men who can channel are, and how the madness might manifest. We learn about shielding and gentling, and the tolls they can both take. We see examples of different types of warder relationships, etc. So much lore and world building achieved in a single episode, so I really didn't care that it was a departure from the strict plot of the book. Cutting out Caemlyn was also smart given they're limited to eight episodes.

 

I also think they were wise not to get into the 'rules' behind how the power works. Season 2 is a more natural place to dive into that, when we see the ladies receive lessons at Tar Valon.

 

The changes in Episode 8 bother me because I feel like they undermine the story in needless ways with insufficient compensation for the change. Rand's Dragon reveal and first moments to shine at the Eye felt underwhelming and anticlimactic, whereas Nynaeve gets yet another massive display of power. And the fact that both Nynaeve and Egwene have already pulled off feats that (in the books) are supposed to require great skill and dexterity at weaving (and at least some training) is really going to undermine the upcoming training scenes next season. 

 

One final thought. I usually roll my eyes at people who get knee-jerk upset when a character's race or gender is changed, or when women are given more screen time, power or agency than in their source material. Generally I do think that heroic fiction has been too white-male dominanated and I welcome more diversity. But that doesn't invalidate the complaints that Rand and Lan have really not had any moments to shine, and Lews Therin was really done dirty. And with Nynaeve in particular they showed too much power too early. I wish the showrunners would have found a better balance, and been more patient with Nynaeve's development. Doing more to appeal to women is great. Robbing the male characters entirely just makes for less interesting TV. 

[Jackdaw_Fool]

3 hours ago, TheDreadReader said:

Saidin is explicitly mentioned in the show as is the phrase "the male half of the one power". 

Thanks! Where is that? I must have missed it!

[CanisNoir]

29 minutes ago, WoTwasThat said:

 

I agree with your point that having a completed series probably gave Rafe & Crew a bit more confidence to make changes without the fear of running down a dead end. That makes sense. But I don't think that explains or justifies the magnitude of changes made so far, and I think it's tough to characterize a pitch as "keeping the Heart and Spine of the story" (if that's what you were doing) when one jettisons fundamental concepts like the distinction between Saidar / Saidin and the DR channeling Saidin.

 

How have they changed those concepts in the show? There's a definite distinction made between Saidar and Saidin, and both Rand and Lews Therin channel Saidin with Rand having a tainted version that will drive him mad. I don't see any changes here. 

 

[Mirefox]

1 hour ago, DigificWriter said:

It seems to me that a good majority of the criticisms that some of the people who are unsatisfied with the WoT TV series have been voicing since Christmas Eve stem primarily from a lack of understanding of  - or unwillingness to understand - the realities or nuances of how stories are told in a particular medium (in this case, television), which doesn't really expose flaws in the show so much as it does expose the limits of their own points-of-view.

 

There also seems to be a large amount of blowback stemming almost entirely from misplaced expectations about what the concept of 'fidelity to the source material' means, which, again, doesn't so much expose flaws in the show so much as it does communicate a dissonance between what some people were expecting to get versus what Rafe and his team are delivering.

You more than anyone else here need to stop blaming everyone but the writers for any issues with the show.  So it’s our fault now?  We just aren’t sophisticated enough to understand the medium and how carefully crafted it is?  Give me a break.  Even ignoring any debates about fidelity there is plenty of objectively bad writing and inconsistency in the first season, even when considered completely in a vacuum.

 

On top of that, some of the storytelling is flat out insulting.  There is absolutely no subtlety at all in the first season.  If the writers want you to know something, guy better believe they are going to hit you over the head with it.  They treat us like we are a stupid viewership that can’t handle actual story development.  The Stepin side-story is such an obvious case in point; 1/8 of the rushed season was spent on characters that were barely mentioned in the novels simply to set up a concept that we may see in the future.  The writers clearly don’t trust their own writing to establish an in-screen relationship that will be impacted when tested and they clearly don’t trust the viewers to understand without them pointing back and saying “see, we spent a whole pointless episode telling you how you’re supposed to feel.”

 

The writers are not the A team and that at least has yo be acknowledges.  Right now, you are at the other end of the spectrum from the guy saying “Rand wore blue, not green.  0/10 stars,” and both are completely untenable positions.

[CaddySedai]

Stop making it personal.

 

All of you.

 

I do not care whether you liked the show or not. I will balefire this thread faster than you would believe. This is for discussing the show - disagreeing at times with each others viewpoints but not disparaging anyone directly.

 

This is not a negotiable item.

[Yojimbo]

6 minutes ago, Mirefox said:

 The writers clearly don’t trust their own writing to establish an in-screen relationship that will be impacted when tested and they clearly don’t trust the viewers to understand without them pointing back and saying “see, we spent a whole pointless episode telling you how you’re supposed to feel.”

 

OMG, this is exactly what my wife, a non reader, has been saying.  "I know what they are telling me I should feel, but they aren't showing me why I should feel it"

[Mirefox]

15 minutes ago, CanisNoir said:

 

How have they changed those concepts in the show? There's a definite distinction made between Saidar and Saidin, and both Rand and Lews Therin channel Saidin with Rand having a tainted version that will drive him mad. I don't see any changes here. 

 

What distinctions, other than visually?  I’m genuinely curious.  Did they ever say something in the show like “the male half is tainted?”  They may have, I don’t remember.  What I do remember is Liandrin saying males actually cause the taint in the power when the channel and the black power special effects.

[CaddySedai]

18 minutes ago, CanisNoir said:

 

How have they changed those concepts in the show? There's a definite distinction made between Saidar and Saidin, and both Rand and Lews Therin channel Saidin with Rand having a tainted version that will drive him mad. I don't see any changes here. 

 

 

The issue is that the show's discussion of Saidin and Saidar directly only happens in the additional materials - never directly in the show.

 

So it opens up discussion. And its not an invalid point. I personally believe the supp materials are the "omnipotent" knowledge and the show itself operates on flaws finite knowledge. Much how it can happen in the real world.

 

Others may argue that if it is not said in the direct show, then it does not count. And I can understand that view too since - well the books themselves are not held up directly in this shows lens so its like saying "pay attention to this stuff but not this other stuff"

 

So again - until someone from the show directly addresses this - then there will be no meeting of the minds.

 

@Mirefox its mentioned in the supplemental materials. On the site and in the Origins stuff. Never directly - at least...yet. *shrugs*

[VooDooNut]

27 minutes ago, Mirefox said:

You more than anyone else here need to stop blaming everyone but the writers for any issues with the show.  So it’s our fault now?  We just aren’t sophisticated enough to understand the medium and how carefully crafted it is?  Give me a break.

27 minutes ago, Mirefox said:

Even ignoring any debates about fidelity there is plenty of objectively bad writing and inconsistency in the first season, even when considered completely in a vacuum.

27 minutes ago, Mirefox said:

On top of that, some of the storytelling is flat out insulting.  There is absolutely no subtlety at all in the first season.  If the writers want you to know something, guy better believe they are going to hit you over the head with it.  They treat us like we are a stupid viewership that can’t handle actual story development. 

The subtlety I find in the TV show is probably my favorite general part of the series so far. I'm sorry it's not coming across that way to you. It certainly makes the show more enjoyable for me. It has helped me to re-watch the episodes multiple times (and I thoroughly enjoy the act of re-watching/re-reading great works to find the things I missed on first glance).

27 minutes ago, Mirefox said:

The Stepin side-story is such an obvious case in point; 1/8 of the rushed season was spent on characters that were barely mentioned in the novels simply to set up a concept that we may see in the future.  The writers clearly don’t trust their own writing to establish an in-screen relationship that will be impacted when tested and they clearly don’t trust the viewers to understand without them pointing back and saying “see, we spent a whole pointless episode telling you how you’re supposed to feel.”

There was a lot of character progression that happened outside of the Steppin moments, but even still I enjoyed the Steppin scenes for what they were. I don't think this scene should be thrown away, I just wish there were more episodes/longer episodes in season 1. But I'm happy enough with all the moments that did make the cut for season 1 and I fully expect many of these scenes to be revisited and expanded upon in future seasons.

 

27 minutes ago, Mirefox said:

The writers are not the A team and that at least has yo be acknowledges.  Right now, you are at the other end of the spectrum from the guy saying “Rand wore blue, not green.  0/10 stars,” and both are completely untenable positions.

I'm optimistic for season 2. As I said above, I think many of the moments that feel incomplete from season 1 will be touched upon in future seasons, including confusion around the magic system and Saidin/Saidar.

Edited December 29, 2021 by VooDooNut
Removed direct comment

[CanisNoir]

4 minutes ago, Mirefox said:

What distinctions, other than visually?  I’m genuinely curious.  Did they ever say something in the show like “the male half is tainted?”  They may have, I don’t remember.  What I do remember is Liandrin saying males actually cause the taint in the power when the channel and the black power special effects.

 

Liandrin is a misandrist which is explicitly pointed out twice in Episode 5, so her saying males make the power "Filthy" was perfectly in character with her. I actually liked that touch as it told us immediately that not all Aes Sedi were "good people". She's also set up as an antagonist pretty early on as well. 

 

Tom tells Rand that The Dark One tainted the male half of the power when he talks about his Nephew Owen. In addition, the flash back to The AoL says that The Dark One would taint the male half. 

 

I think they did an "ok" job of showing us multiple viewpoints Aes Sedi might have towards Men, from Liandran's open Disdain, to Allana's Love Shack to Moraine's respect.

[JaimAybara]

11 minutes ago, CanisNoir said:

 

How have they changed those concepts in the show? There's a definite distinction made between Saidar and Saidin, and both Rand and Lews Therin channel Saidin with Rand having a tainted version that will drive him mad. I don't see any changes here. 

 

On the show I haven’t really seen a true justification as to why women can’t teach men yet, the animations notwithstanding. But the part that really bothered me is Moiraine basically says she won’t teach him anything and then gives him a super weapon…it’s like a parent saying they refuse to teach their 18 year old gun safety or how to operate a firearm, but they’ll buy them a rocket launcher, it just left me scratching my head. 

[7th age]

1 hour ago, 7th age said:

 

Havent seen Everyday Negroes reaction to ep8 yet. But one comment that stuck in my head. In the (awesome) cold open of ep.7(minute 2:50) :

 

"-middle guy:So are we thinking this is Rands mother?

-guy to the right: gotta be, shes everything hes not.

-guy to the left: thats a fact"

 

right after:

"they say the apple dont fall far from the tree, somebody took that apple and rocket launched it"

 

Now mind you these guys seem to be really enjoying the series(and if you are into reaction videos i found them to be the most entertaining nonreader reactions by quite a bit)

 

Btw. THIS right here is why not giving Rand his power moment in breaking the army is so problematic in my mind. Havent seen any nonreader reactions to ep8 yet, curious to see how many picked up the fact that Rand did 100% of what Ishy wanted in their fight. Those that didnt will find out next season when the other Forsaken join the series and it becomes clear that they were freed due to the Dragon breaking the seal/opening the Dark ones prison.

 

EVERYTHING the Dragon  AND the DragonReborn do this season has defacto been a HUGE win for the DO (well no, Rand kills 2 trollocs, thats quite the cost for the shadow...), and seeing that LTT did NOT do this out of desperation but rather arrogance on the one hand, and that Rands untrained channeling has to be compared to the equally untrained Nyn and Eg. I would not have ANY confidence in this supposed "saviour"

[CanisNoir]

3 minutes ago, JaimAybara said:

On the show I haven’t really seen a true justification as to why women can’t teach men yet, the animations notwithstanding. But the part that really bothered me is Moiraine basically says she won’t teach him anything and then gives him a super weapon…it’s like a parent saying they refuse to teach their 18 year old gun safety or how to operate a firearm, but they’ll buy them a rocket launcher, it just left me scratching my head. 

 

Allana did say that Women can't see Men's weaves and Logain was able to channel without using any hand movements. I took Moiraine's answer to Rand as her being an Aes Sedi and not wanting to admit ignorance. 

 

I think in general Moiraines plan was flawed by Aes Sedi arrogance, and her over reliance upon "The Wheel Weaves as The Wheel Wills" which is why she was okay tossing an untrained and clueless Dragon at The Dark One with just a Sa'Angreal and hopes that The Pattern would take care of the rest. I took it as more a reflection of The Aes Sedi as a whole and Moiraine as a character more than I did it being a poorly written disrespect of the source. Still, it was a really silly plan so I understand why it bothered you.

 

[JaimAybara]

1 minute ago, CanisNoir said:

 

Allana did say that Women can't see Men's weaves and Logain was able to channel without using any hand movements. I took Moiraine's answer to Rand as her being an Aes Sedi and not wanting to admit ignorance. 

 

I think in general Moiraines plan was flawed by Aes Sedi arrogance, and her over reliance upon "The Wheel Weaves as The Wheel Wills" which is why she was okay tossing an untrained and clueless Dragon at The Dark One with just a Sa'Angreal and hopes that The Pattern would take care of the rest. I took it as more a reflection of The Aes Sedi as a whole and Moiraine as a character more than I did it being a poorly written disrespect of the source. Still, it was a really silly plan so I understand why it bothered you.

 

I agree with all that 100% ^,  but still think it would just be way easier and more clarifying to simply say, “Saidin is too different from Saidar. One is a raging torrent of fire and the other is a calm but massive river…” go on to give Rand “the talk” about the fish and the birds, bla bla, you get it. Haha. Nor do I think it was intentional disrespect or anything like that, more of just a missed opportunity. 

[Mirefox]

53 minutes ago, CaddySedai said:

 

The issue is that the show's discussion of Saidin and Saidar directly only happens in the additional materials - never directly in the show.

 

So it opens up discussion. And its not an invalid point. I personally believe the supp materials are the "omnipotent" knowledge and the show itself operates on flaws finite knowledge. Much how it can happen in the real world.

 

Others may argue that if it is not said in the direct show, then it does not count. And I can understand that view too since - well the books themselves are not held up directly in this shows lens so its like saying "pay attention to this stuff but not this other stuff"

 

So again - until someone from the show directly addresses this - then there will be no meeting of the minds.

 

@Mirefox its mentioned in the supplemental materials. On the site and in the Origins stuff. Never directly - at least...yet. *shrugs*

These supplemental materials are presenting some problems.  In some recent interview Rafe was asked why we haven’t seen the Avendesora leaf and his response was something along the lines of “oh we haven’t?” while showing that picture of Fain holding one.  I’m all for bonus materials and extra world building and behind the scenes stuff,  but it shouldn’t be referenced as part of the story, I feel.  If it is important it should be in the show.  On the  whole list of things, I don’t care as much about the leaf and seeing it in the extras was fine.  Rafe’s response was less fine.  Saidar and Saidin need to be incorporated.

Edited December 29, 2021 by Mirefox