The Future of The Black Tower? (Probably spoilers for entire series)

[SingleMort]

Just wondering what people think is the future of the Black Tower after the end of the 3rd Age? I think they could eventually be equal to the White Tower or may even merge with it but it would be a rocky road to get there and I wouldn't be surprised if there are a few clashes between them and Andor and the White Tower along the way. The main problem is I think many people would still would be distrustful of men who can channel coupled with the fact that the White Tower would probably see them as a rival faction and would probably not like another group doing what they do who could potentially have as much influence over the world especially as they have been the in their position for thousands of years and now this young pretender group of could start taking some of their power and influence for themselves. The other problem that sets the White and Black towers on a path of conflict in my opinion is the location of the Black Tower. I think Rand made a mistake with this by choosing a location on Andor land. This in effect makes the Black Tower beholden to Andor and by extension the White Tower as their headquarters is on land governed by one of the most powerful Aes Sedai and would probably lead to problems with the Black Tower determining their own destiny. I think in order for the Black Tower to ever become an equal counterpart to the White they would either need to move to land they can own themselves (like how Tar Valon is) or Elayne would need to cede the land they currently occupy to the Black Tower. I don't think the latter option is very likely.

[DojoToad]

To be honest, I never really thought about what happens after the Last Battle - and don't care.  That's the nice thing about the series, it is all nice and tied off (for me).  If something comes out in the future that expands on the Age of Legends, Seanchan, Shara, or post Last Battle in Randland - I will be very interested, but if they don't, I'm good.  Put a bow on it, I'm done.

 

Ready to go re-explore Game of Thrones, Dune, anything by Michael Crichton, Foundation, I am Legend, Calvin & Hobbes, Mistborn, Middle Earth, etc.  Then of course there are hobbies, games, friends, rum, sports (playing not watching), travel, etc.

 

I'll have the WoT TV show to occupy me for years to come (I hope).  When it is done, I'll probably binge the entire series and then read the books again.

 

I'm not criticizing your curiosity, just trying to explain why I'm not in the same place.  I like looking at what is there, not what might be - the permutations overwhelm me, I don't have an analytical mind.

 

 

[SingleMort]

Ah OK I always wondered what happened to the characters next because we know life in WoT has these cyclical events so nothing is really ever the end because the dead will just live again in their next life. The battle between good and evil is a never ending one that's why the Dark One was not and could not be destroyed because you can't have good without evil. There are no endings and there are no beginnings just the ever turning circle of life spinning throughout the ages, a wheel of time if you will.

 

But this is all just my opinions and I'm getting a little sidetracked there are lots of things Id like to know more about including the other Ages (we only saw a few years of 3rd one and that Age alone spanned thousands of years) but the future of the Black Tower and how they would make their way in the new 4th Age is something I've often wondered about ?

[thehumantrashcan]

I do wonder and I don't think you are getting sidetracked at all.  I mean think about it.  The final battle didn't end evil, it merely put it in check, subdued it if you will, so that the Dark One couldn't have as strong or powerful influence over the world.  Does that mean the age begins to move towards a utopia or will the evil inside humans of the world continue to screw things up.  I believe it with with the role the Aiel play moving forward so I think there is great potential for there to be conflict not just between the groups you mentioned but what about the idea that was proposed of the Seachan enslaving male channelers? There is so much great potential.  However, I could see if something like that happened the towers could absolutely combine.  Who knows, maybe a new colored ajah could arise that is dedicated to bonding with Ashaman?  (Or wait, is that the red ajah now?)  I would imagine they would eventually unite and who knows, maybe that is the start of the new age where the yin/yang sign finally comes to be.

[SingleMort]

3 hours ago, thehumantrashcan said:

I do wonder and I don't think you are getting sidetracked at all.  I mean think about it.  The final battle didn't end evil, it merely put it in check, subdued it if you will, so that the Dark One couldn't have as strong or powerful influence over the world.  Does that mean the age begins to move towards a utopia or will the evil inside humans of the world continue to screw things up. 

I think what eventually happens is that the Dark One will be forgotten about and once again people will discover his power and try to utilise that releasing him once more. I think the process is never ending. 

 

3 hours ago, thehumantrashcan said:

 I believe it with with the role the Aiel play moving forward so I think there is great potential for there to be conflict not just between the groups you mentioned but what about the idea that was proposed of the Seachan enslaving male channelers? There is so much great potential.  However, I could see if something like that happened the towers could absolutely combine.  Who knows, maybe a new colored ajah could arise that is dedicated to bonding with Ashaman?  (Or wait, is that the red ajah now?)  I would imagine they would eventually unite and who knows, maybe that is the start of the new age where the yin/yang sign finally comes to be.

 

I think if there is a common enemy I think Ashaman and Aes Sedai might unite but without a common threat I could see a cold war scenario developing. Most Ashaman are going to want to become equal to Aes Sedai and I think there are many within the Aes Sedai who would not want that to happen. There may also be those within the Ashaman who may want to not only be equal but surpass Aes Sedai.

 

Bonding might help but want happens when Aes Sedai and Ashaman disagree on policy or a major decision? It's not the same as with a warder where there is a clear definition of who's in charge. The Black Tower being on Andor land is also a problem because what happens when Elayne starts issuing commands to Ashaman as their Queen? Will they accept they are subjects of Andor or will they look at Tar Valon and think they are not subjects of any monarch so why should we be? If Ashaman and Aes Sedai are going to peacefully co-exist long term I think they'll need to find an equal balance between each other where neither side has overall dominance.

[thehumantrashcan]

I wonder if Elayne would do that.  Especially with her connection with Rand and the implications that he will keep visiting her post the series.

 

There was the double bond that the Aes Sedai and Ashaman can do.  That would allow any bonding to be on equal footing rather than one over the other.  Those were very intense from what I remember.

[SingleMort]

On 10/3/2021 at 4:55 AM, thehumantrashcan said:

I wonder if Elayne would do that.  Especially with her connection with Rand and the implications that he will keep visiting her post the series.

 

 

I'm not necessarily saying Elayne would be a bad person for doing the things I said I think she'd be doing what she thinks is best for Andor. I terms of giving orders to the Black Tower I think her reasoning would be they are on Andor land so they need to submit to Andor law. Equally I can see the argument for the Ashaman to be independent of other rulers like the White Tower is. Maybe Elayne would try to tie the Black Tower to Andor? Because a Queen with their own order of soldier channellers would be a force to be reckoned with and could guarantee the security of Andor for centuries. I believe Elayne would always do what she thinks is the right thing but it might not actually be right thing. I think we saw a little bit of evidence for this when she tried to have Mat's Band essentially become part of the Andor military and Mat refused because he realised she might one day use them against the Two Rivers. Even if Elayne is able to maintain the peace and avoid such conflicts the same might not said of future generations. The problem with monarchies is they often fail to select the best person for the job and for every king or queen who has been a competent ruler there are dozens who are incompetent. 

 

Again this is all just hypothetical but in my opinion the situation with the Ashaman and The Two Rivers seems kinda vaguely defined in terms of where they stand with Andor by the end of the series. We see how much things could change with the Seanchan without Tuon so I wonder if some similar change could happen in Andor.

 

On 10/3/2021 at 4:55 AM, thehumantrashcan said:

There was the double bond that the Aes Sedai and Ashaman can do.  That would allow any bonding to be on equal footing rather than one over the other.  Those were very intense from what I remember.

 

Yes I'd forgotten about that but I was more wondering how the hierarchy would work? Say for instance Ashaman and Aes Sedia have some joint mission together who would be in charge? How would the 2 orders interact? On the one hand you have Aes Sedai who have been the sole chanellers for thousand of years and counselled Kings and Queens. Male chanellers have been seen as mad dogs to be put down. One the other hand you have the Ashaman who have had a short a brutal existence, not knowing their place in the world or who to trust, not knowing how people would react to knowing what they can do. There was enough prejudice against female channelers when they were the established and stable norm for millenia so imagine how much prejudice there would be towards the ones who everyone see as responsible for nearly destroying the world. I know they fought the last battle together and changed some peoples opinions but not everyone was at the last battle and you can't change human nature and 1000s of years of prejudice in a few months. I think it would take generations for the Ashaman to gain the same kind of acceptance that Aes Sedai have and even them there would still be people like the White Cloaks (don't mean literally the White Cloaks just groups like they used to be) spreading their poison.

 

Lol I've been thinking about this waaaay too much ? 

Edited October 4, 2021 by SingleMort

[DojoToad]

45 minutes ago, SingleMort said:

Lol I've been thinking about this waaaay too much ? 

Yes, you have.  Or maybe I haven't been thinking about it enough.  To each their own...

[Acevillain]

I believe the future for the Black Tower is very bright. The last battle saw huge losses of life in its military campaigns, so you see a world with a vastly decreased male population overall but we also saw huge loss of life in the civilian population from the war and the dark one’s touch on the world: bubbles of evil, failed agriculture, failed food stores. This environment of huge loss of life is one where big changes in culture and how you view the world are most readily made. How many orphans with no parents to tell them of the horrors of the Breaking of the World will only hear about how the Ashaman were heroes in the last battle? How many soldiers will go home with stories of how Ashaman saved their lives? How many of those civilians Logain saved at Merrilor will share their stories? 
 

On top of this positive PR, the Black Tower is also a blank slate. It can set its course as it chooses and define itself in the best way for the world. This maneuverability in mission sets it apart from the White Tower which is established and does not allow for quick or easy changes. And since Logain realized power for power’s sake isn’t the path, he’s in a good position to guide the tower down the right path. 

The Black Tower has a couple advantages over the White Tower. First, they don’t have a reputation of scheming and manipulating, so they should have an easier time being trusted and taken at face value. Because of this I can imagine rulers taking Ashaman advisors. Second, thanks to their Soldier, Dedicated, Ashaman structure they keep channelers that would be considered too weak to be Aes Sedi. Just because they are weak in the power doesn’t mean they don’t have valuable skills to help the Black Tower.  Third, each Ashaman doesn’t dedicate themselves to an Ajah. I believe this will allow them to be “Renaissance men”, Jack of all trades that focus on what is needed in the moment. This will help prevent White Tower style cliques. Fourth, the Black Tower is the only male channelers institution. The White Tower has to navigate complex relationships with Windfinders, Wise Ones, and even akin while the Black Tower is the end all be all. Finally, the Black Tower recruits. Enough said. 
 

It’s pure speculation if the Sheanchan keep the Dragons Peace or not, but since male channelers cannot be leased that adds an interesting dynamic and would allow Ashaman to operate in their lands while Aes  Sedi could not feel safe. Male Channelers natural affinity for Earth would also make them exceedingly valuable for rebuilding cities like Caemlyn. Since Shadowspawn are just constructions, I imagine at least trollocs can survive with the Bore unmade and the Ashaman can help mop up those dregs.

 

There are so many fun possibilities to contemplate!

[SingleMort]

On 10/24/2021 at 12:15 AM, Acevillain said:

I believe the future for the Black Tower is very bright. The last battle saw huge losses of life in its military campaigns, so you see a world with a vastly decreased male population overall but we also saw huge loss of life in the civilian population from the war and the dark one’s touch on the world: bubbles of evil, failed agriculture, failed food stores. This environment of huge loss of life is one where big changes in culture and how you view the world are most readily made. How many orphans with no parents to tell them of the horrors of the Breaking of the World will only hear about how the Ashaman were heroes in the last battle? How many soldiers will go home with stories of how Ashaman saved their lives? How many of those civilians Logain saved at Merrilor will share their stories? 
 

I understand that Ashaman would have a lot of supporters who were with them at the battle but I think they would still have their detractors just as Aes Sedai have. I think the support they have would not be broadcast far and wide the same way news would spread in our world. There is no internet or Twitter in WoT news would be spread by word of mouth to many places and the more different voices that tell the story secondhand, thirdhand, forthand then the more inaccuracies creep into the telling of a story. 

 

I'm not saying I think the future of the Black Tower is bleak but I do think they have some obstacles to overcome and I definitely see a rivalry between them and the Aes Sedai happening  

 

On 10/24/2021 at 12:15 AM, Acevillain said:

The Black Tower has a couple advantages over the White Tower. First, they don’t have a reputation of scheming and manipulating, so they should have an easier time being trusted and taken at face value. Because of this I can imagine rulers taking Ashaman advisors. Second, thanks to their Soldier, Dedicated, Ashaman structure they keep channelers that would be considered too weak to be Aes Sedi. Just because they are weak in the power doesn’t mean they don’t have valuable skills to help the Black Tower.  Third, each Ashaman doesn’t dedicate themselves to an Ajah. I believe this will allow them to be “Renaissance men”, Jack of all trades that focus on what is needed in the moment. This will help prevent White Tower style cliques. Fourth, the Black Tower is the only male channelers institution. The White Tower has to navigate complex relationships with Windfinders, Wise Ones, and even akin while the Black Tower is the end all be all. Finally, the Black Tower recruits. Enough said. 

 

 

I think the Aes Sedai reputation has good and bad parts to it. Yes the are known to be scheming and manipulative by some but they are also known to be wise and promote stability. Ashaman are not known as advisors right now they are soldiers, a military force. I suppose they could develop similar peacetime skills to Aes Sedai but they are not there yet. Secondly if they start becoming advisors to rulers and taking on similar duties to Aes Sedai I definitely see a rivalry developing between the White and Black Tower. I mean the Aes Sedai even have rvialries between different Ajah so I definitely see them becoming rivals with a order of men that many of them would see as trying supplant them. You mention Ashaman not having an Ajah which would allow them to be multi-talented or a "Jack of all trades" but you forget the second part of that saying. "A Jack of all trades is a master of none". I think Ashaman would actually need to develop specialist skill sets so that they can have elite knowledge in a similar way the ajahs are (eg combat, medicine, diplomacy), because then you can create a task force out of different specialists to send on an assignment. 

 

On 10/24/2021 at 12:15 AM, Acevillain said:

It’s pure speculation if the Sheanchan keep the Dragons Peace or not, but since male channelers cannot be leased that adds an interesting dynamic and would allow Ashaman to operate in their lands while Aes  Sedi could not feel safe. Male Channelers natural affinity for Earth would also make them exceedingly valuable for rebuilding cities like Caemlyn. Since Shadowspawn are just constructions, I imagine at least trollocs can survive with the Bore unmade and the Ashaman can help mop up those dregs.

 

I'm not sure how safe Ashaman might feel either to be honest. They can still be killed or taken by surprised. Seeing as Seanchan used to just killed male channelers on sight they might have to overcomet even more prejudice their.

 

Maybe they could be used for rebuilding as you say but I would be curious to know what would be their payment for such efforts. Ownership of the land the Black Tower stands on? Recruits? Money? I still think Elayne would try to tie the Ashaman to Andor like she tried to tie the Band of the Red Hand to Andor because with her Aes Sedai hat on it allows the Aes Sedai to gain a bit more influence over the Ashaman, and with her Queen hat on it could give Andor it's own personal army of chanellers. I'm not saying Elayne is a bad person but I'm sure both of those things would be extremely apealing to her.

 

Ultimately I think the Aes Sedai and Ashaman will merge at some point and I think it will happen when one of them starts training recruits of the opposite gender. At that point I think the other order would either have to merge or face eventual decline and irrelevance because we all know the best combination would be to combine the male and female powers. Seeing as the Ashaman are the newer order and less caught up in traditions and internal politics I would bet they are the ones who take that first step. However, I think it would be many years before that would happen.

 

I didn't really think of the future of the Black Tower as being bright or bleak just.... interesting. I don't think the end of WoT set up a happily ever after scenario. I'm sure there will be good things that happen in the future but there will also be bad. The end of WoT told us we cannot have good without evil and that always made sense to me because if you destroy evil you break the wheel and end the cycle which is exactly what Shaitan wanted. It's one of the reasons why I thought so much about the future after then end of the books because it seems like their is no definitive end to this story, the cycle will go on forever until Shaitan eventually wins.

[Dedicated]

I've only skimmed through this thread, but can anyone recall whether an official representative of the Black Tower signed the Dragon's Peace? I feel like I remember Elyane mentioning that someone would need to get the Black Tower in on it, but I can't remember definitively. 

 

Anyways, I always thought that the Dragon's Peace was the compromise that everyone would have to in order to resolve conflicts and maintain peace as Rand wished it. It was Rand's largest fear that he would die for nothing; meaning he'd make this huge sacrifice but then people would just go right back to doing all the things they had been doing.

 

I think if there is any foreshadowing of the relationship between the White and Black tower to be found it would be found in the relationship between Androl and Pevara. Or maybe their relationship represents what we would hope for with the relationship between the White and Black Towers. Logain would probably be the leader of the Black Tower and as we know he was kinda headed towards a dark path. Hopefully that moment when he saved the children and mother's were running up to him thanking him and promising to send their kids to be tested was enough to help get him back on the right path, but man that Turning process really seemed like it was a doozy. 

Edited October 26, 2021 by Dedicated
removed some words

[boldnbeautiful]

I will only go with what the series revealed and expand upon it.

 

Min's viewing of Logain showed his future glory stepping over Rand's body. This vision is pretty clear that after Rand dies Logain will take over the BT and lead them to glory. Rand didn't choose Andor randomly, but due to the importance of the location and for future benefits for Elayne. The BT can be a huge asset to Andor. Remember that Logain has bonded Aes Sedai. In fact, most of his close Ashaman allies bonded Aes Sedai and Aes Sedai with Ashaman bonded. Most likely, the BT will be a place where both male and female channelers will be active making them much more powerful and influential.

 

In the book, whether Ashaman bonds Aes Sedai or Aes Sedai bonds Ashama matter little. They develop deep romantic interests. Aes Sedai led a lonely life and this is understandable before male channelers . Male and female channelers have affinities toward one another and more likely marry one another. The BT is much more favorable toward these relationship than the WT.

 

The WT lost between 50-70% of Aes Sedai. They are no longer the One Power monopoly. The major advantage the Westland have against Seanchan is the Ashaman. There is no way any leaders will ignore such a huge advantage.

 

Just one Aiel clan had around 500 female channelers of varying degree of strengths. We can estimate that there will be about the same amount of male channelers. The BT is the only place for Aiel male channelers to get training making them much stronger.

 

 

 

 

[Red Eagle]

Pardon my lateness, 

The future of the BT is an issue near and dear to my heart, as I regularly write post-LB fanfiction. Here are a few points I've given a great deal of thought to.

 

1) Nothing about the Last Battle, or any of the events leading up to it, has altered Aes Sedai hypocrisy concerning men who can channel.

 

Egwene and Cadsuane (The Aes Sedai we see on point to be raised Amyrlin as MoL concludes) share a single PoV. They considered the bonding of Aes Sedai by Asha'man an "abomination," even when the Aes Sedai in question had been sent to kill not only ever man who could channel they found at the BT, but all of the other people residing there. Other than the text making clear to us they're familiar with the mission Elaida dispatched under Toveine, neither Aes Sedai so much as recognizes that the Aes Sedai who ended up bonded were intending to commit mass-murder on a scale otherwise seen only as the actions of Shadowspawn. 

 

2) Rand's influence, even if he was willing to reveal his survival to the Asha'man, is at best nil with the Asha'man. He too ignored the fact an Aes Sedai raiding party came to do mass-murder. Going even further by bartering away forty-seven men as if they were his chattel, to appease the Aes Sedai. Every surviving Asha'man is absolutely aware the Dragon knew they were being preyed on by the Shadow, and he did nothing to help them. I would not be surprised if one or more Asha'man attempted to do him harm, were he to dare show his face among men he has treated worse than the Seanchan treat damane. 

 

3) Nearly every living Asha'man can Travel. This being the case, there is literally no advantage for Logain and his men to remain in a kingdom ruled by an Aes Sedai. A new Black Tower could be set up in the Mountains of Mist or the Dragonspine Mountains, because lines of supply can be continent-long without issue. The cavernous gap where the Aes Sedai queen of Manetheran scorched away the ancient country's capitol could be a usable location, as can anywhere else sufficiently remote and all but inaccessible without Traveling. Setting up beyond the jurisdiction of any crown is the Asha'man's easiest path to enduring independence.

 

4) Asha'man don't lose a huge portion of their lifespan via swearing Oaths on the Binder. There is also the fact that the stronger you are in the Power, the longer your total lifespan. Now that all the high mortality-rate battles/war is over with, the clock has begun ticking down to the century where the elite of the BT are 500-600 year old channelers, while the Aes Sedai continue to lose their best and brightest before their third centuries in many cases. 

 

5) The Wheel is Balance. For an Age, the women have been the dominant force. Not simply the Aes Sedai, but a top-down social influence where women occupying positions of highest influence was in many cases the norm. It won't be a sudden change, but for equality to come to pass over time, logically there must be an (eventual) reduction in the authority/influence of the White Tower. 

 

Egwene scooping up hundreds and hundreds of women who became novices implies there are heretofore untapped pockets of potential channelers. It's therefore reasonable to expect the BT's recruitment efforts will continue to show exceptional results for some time to come. Saying nothing of men who can channel living to father children will have its own impact over time. 

 

Just a few thoughts as to why the future of the BT is likely a very bright one. With a leader like Logain, who's been rather shabbily treated by the Aes Sedai, I think the days of the Asha'man playing nice and treating Aes Sedai with kid gloves are definitively over. Especially with an old-school anachronism like Cadsuane in the Amyrlin Seat. 

 

 

[EmreY]

3 hours ago, Red Eagle said:

Especially with an old-school anachronism like Cadsuane in the Amyrlin Seat. 

 

Indeed.  I have spent more than a few idle moments contemplating her forthcoming problems with the Kin, the Windfinders and the Black Tower.  ? She's in for a rude awakening, especially as Nynaeve will take over the legendary mantle: an awesomely powerful Aes Sedai who lives separate from the White Tower, doesn't give a fig about most of them and who heals madness and was at the Sealing of the Bore.  So poor Cadsuane will be submerged in the nitty-gritty of running the WT, while most of the really powerful female channellers - eg Alivia, Talaan, Nyneave - will be outside her influence.

 

When Cadsuane gets too big for her boots (as we know she will immediately) any confrontation between, say, Nynaeve and the White Tower will no doubt involve more than a few Asha'man.  Amongst whom I think Nynaeve will be a legend next only to Rand.

 

As for the Black Tower specifically, I find your points very interesting.  I don't agree with just one: the Asha'man view of the Dragon Reborn.  The re-knitting of the Pattern to exclude the Dark One is an age-defining action, and the cleansing of Saidin liberated all male channellers.  Both could be felt by male channellers across the world, and the first could be seen.  For all the DR's faults, many male channellers will worhip the ground he walked on.  Even though a remote figure for many (with sometimes questionable actions), all male channellers will live under the Dragon's long shadow, so they might as well make the most of it.  I do see factions emerging at the BT on just how to treat the DR's memory, some being indifferent, others being effectively dragonsworn.  For both, keeping the DR's memory alive will be a useful tool; a BT that effectively ignored or overcritised the DR would be cutting off its nose to spite its face.  And since most of the powerful channellers at the old BT were Turned, with the rest fighting alongside Rand at one point or another, I think Logain will have a difficult time ignoring his memory, even if he wished to (other than for political reasons).  So his influence will be great, but not in person.  (I think matters would have been far more complicated if the DR persona had survived.)

 

And so I think the DR will pass into legend among men, the savour of the world and the restorer of lost hope. 

 

And, personally, I'd move the Black Tower partway up Dragonmount, if only to remind people and also to overlook Tar Valon.  ? 

[EmreY]

On 10/26/2021 at 10:02 PM, Dedicated said:

can anyone recall whether an official representative of the Black Tower signed the Dragon's Peace

 

It isn't said.  But then, IIRC there is no mention of Rand signing either.  Whether he signed or not, I suppose the Asha'man could use apostolic succession to declare themselves Guardians of the Peace.

[Asthereal]

2 hours ago, EmreY said:

 

It isn't said.  But then, IIRC there is no mention of Rand signing either.  Whether he signed or not, I suppose the Asha'man could use apostolic succession to declare themselves Guardians of the Peace.

The Aiel were specifically entered into the Dragon's Peace as peacekeeping force. So that job is taken.

 

But the Dragon Reborn being the de-facto leader of the Asha'man, and the treaty being his treaty does imply that through him the Black Tower is bound to it. But that's mostly speculation. Where's my grey and white Ajah at? I (brown) will record for posterity's sake.

[KakitaOCU]

6 hours ago, Asthereal said:

The Aiel were specifically entered into the Dragon's Peace as peacekeeping force. So that job is taken.

 

But the Dragon Reborn being the de-facto leader of the Asha'man, and the treaty being his treaty does imply that through him the Black Tower is bound to it. But that's mostly speculation. Where's my grey and white Ajah at? I (brown) will record for posterity's sake.

 

I'd argue they're not officially included in the same way Rand left out the White Tower.  He knows Channeling Organizations will do their own thing and so isn't trying to give an excuse to start a war sooner than needed.

[Asthereal]

4 hours ago, KakitaOCU said:

 

I'd argue they're not officially included in the same way Rand left out the White Tower.  He knows Channeling Organizations will do their own thing and so isn't trying to give an excuse to start a war sooner than needed.

I specifically remember Egwene signing the treaty. Could be remembering wrong though...

 

EDIT: Yup. Page 177, bottom line. "Egwene put pen to paper."

Edited February 8, 2022 by Asthereal

[KakitaOCU]

3 minutes ago, Asthereal said:

I specifically remember Egwene signing the treaty. Could be remembering wrong though...

You are corrected, I had forgotten her signing since Rand had said the White Tower was exempt from the non-interference clause.

That said, At the time of the treaty no reliable leader existed to sign.  It's very possible Logain would sign after the fact, but we don't find out.

[DragonLadyofRock]

I think the hints to the future after the last battle are given to us in the fragments from the past. The descriptions of the “Age of Legends” tell us (generally) what will come. I infer that the “Hall of the Servants” was the most powerful channelers — male and female — working together. The great wonders they had during that Age were made by males and females together. The craftsman at the Black Tower seem to hint at this. 
 

Somehow, the male and female channelers will get together, but it certainly will not be at the White Tower. Cadsuane had spent decades avoiding the place. I don’t see her just shoehorning herself into the Tower life. My thought is that the White and Black Towers will become schools, training channelers who, when they graduate, will move on to some other place. Or other places. The Power will not be concentrated in those Towers, because it was not in the Age of Legends.  More of the population will be able to channel (with more men who have the ability able to live longer, now that they aren’t hunted or sickened), and more of the population in general will see channeling as a normal, beneficial part of life. That seems to be what happened leading to the Age of Legends, so it will come again. The seeds have been planted by the Dragon. 

 

As an aside, I think the terms of the Dragons Peace will shape the Aiel into what we saw in the visions of Rhuidean. It’s just a cycle. 

[KakitaOCU]

Honestly.  I fear we see the end of channeling in the 4th Age.

We know from Aviendha's dark vision that Rifles are coming.  While individual channelers can put on massive displays of power, rifles in the hands of anti channelers is a deathknell for it.

Plus we know that somehow channeling has to disappear from knowledge before the wheel gets around to us again.

[Red Eagle]

My intended has an interesting theory,

She thinks that the Stedding (suddenly or incrementally) expand from their present points radially, until they cover the entire surface of the Earth. (During those Ages where channeling seems to not be a thing.)

 

If you think about it, something like that makes a lot of sense. The power source of the very Wheel isn't liable to just "vanish" for millennia at a time, but if it effectively became unavailable from the perspective of all channelers, what would anyone who lived far enough from the point where the Stedding did their expanding think of the phenomena? 

 

Her theory would also explain why the Ogier even have a "Book of Translation" that apparently allows them to travel away from Earth to some other interdimensional location. If the Stedding are fulfilling a different function in other Ages, they may well not be fit habitations for the Ogier. The Ogier travel away from Earth, experience a reduction in population as the Longing kills off a bunch of them. The survivors breed, and eventually you have a population who have forgotten ever being dependent on the Stedding, who eventually are spurred in some way to use the Book of Translation to return (In their minds journey to) to Earth. Beginning the cycle anew for the Ogier. 

 

As to what goes on in other Ages. We know that one of the Wheel's most powerful ta'veren aside from the Dragon is Ameratsu, who appears in ages where a powerful feminine presence is needed as a counterbalance (There's a quote to that effect in a Memory of Light, as the various Heroes are being named, once Olver sounds the Horn.) 

 

Regarding the Asha'man, I think the most telling point, with respect to their interactions with Aes Sedai, remains the lifespan difference. If one organization regularly has people living four hundred and fifty to six-fifty/seven hundred, and the other organization's Methusalah-figure dies at 280-300, there is eventually going to be an absolutely mindblowing disparity of skill & power. 

 

Imagine someone with Logain's strength, and half-again as old as Lews Therin lived to be. 

 

There's also the Asha'man being innately much less conservative/risk averse. The WT has entire rooms full of devices they don't even allow anyone in the same room with. Whereas fatal training accidents are just a thing in the BT. 

 

Even accounting for far more casualties weakening the BT, some of those risks are going to pan out over time. How many Traveling-scale breakthrough rediscoveries do you need that are known how they can be performed with saidin, but not saidar, before the influence disparity reaches the level of the power/skill disparity? 

 

(Don't even get me started on the Aes Sedai not creating mobile Anti-Balefire fortifications out of sheets of once-iron/now-cuendillar as thin as could be reasonably smithed, prior to transmutation.)

[bringbackthomsmoustache]

On 10/24/2021 at 12:15 AM, Acevillain said:

I believe this will allow them to be “Renaissance men”,

Rather "industrial revolution men" (the rediscovery of steam engines occurred in the books) - with the male predisposition to strength with fire and/or earth the use of the power in prospecting, mining and forging/metal casting will provide activity for as many as want to work in such things and should kick off a full revolution.  

 

3 hours ago, Red Eagle said:

Regarding the Asha'man, I think the most telling point, with respect to their interactions with Aes Sedai, remains the lifespan difference. If one organization regularly has people living four hundred and fifty to six-fifty/seven hundred, and the other organization's Methusalah-figure dies at 280-300, there is eventually going to be an absolutely mindblowing disparity of skill & power. 

Except the AS only have to adopt a policy of periodic releasing from the oaths and then re-swearing to avoid the lifespan problem (as shown by those burned out or stilled regaining a young apparent age).  They are part way there already following Egwene's great re-swearing.

[Red Eagle]

That would be an extremely convenient way for a ter'angreal designed to control some of the worst people in AoL society to work. 

 

I think it more likely that time spent "Under Oath" is time where your "Extra Channeler Lifespan Years" are essentially running faster, while under Oath. Being released would cause a visible surge in vitality, as your lifespan essentially re-slows to your benefit. 

 

I also think it likely that there's a cost, hidden or overt, to serial re-use of a Binder. The ter'angreal was meant as one of the most serious possible recourses for a Channeler's crime (The Binding Chair being the same for non-channelers.) The idea was that being under one Oath would be a rare thing. We don't even have mention related to criminal not-yet-Forsaken ever being threatened with more than one Oath to control a single type of criminal behavior. 

 

Besides this, we have the physical experience to go by. The taking of an Oath immediately causes an oppressive "tightness," which increases to actual pain with the second Oath taken in rapid succession, and the tightness ratcheting "tighter," with the pain growing more intense with the 3rd Oath in rapid succession. The Ferrets (Rebel Spies sent into the WT to undermine Elaida) get all their Oaths removed by the Black Ajah Hunters, then all of the Three Oaths, plus a Fourth Obedience Oath bound to them at once. The PoV characters literally had to use the Obedience Oath to keep the Ferrets from howling due to the pain of going beyond Three Oaths. 

 

The intensification of pain as you increase strain on a human body in one specific way is generally accepted (with exceptions, obviously) as a sign that something bad is happening. 

 

How would you have even gone about testing what a Binder used to Bind a Channeler to multiple Oaths simultaneously would do to a channeler in the AoL, ethically, I mean? 

 

Cynically, if the AoL government did have means to determine what being subjected to multiple Oaths at once would do, would that government have even been interested in safeguarding the long-term survivability of people so viciously inhuman, it takes multiple simultaneous Oaths to render them safe for society to interact with? 

[Stedding Tofu]

On 10/8/2022 at 10:56 AM, Red Eagle said:

She thinks that the Stedding (suddenly or incrementally) expand from their present points radially, until they cover the entire surface of the Earth. (During those Ages where channeling seems to not be a thing.)

 

There's also the Asha'man being innately much less conservative/risk averse. The WT has entire rooms full of devices they don't even allow anyone in the same room with. Whereas fatal training accidents are just a thing in the BT. 

 

It's an interesting idea.  Stedding are anomalies, places where the force that drives the Wheel of Time and is otherwise present throughout the world (universe?) cannot be tapped or even sensed.  Far Madding possesses a great ter'angreal that prevents channeling or sensing the source within it's boundaries, something created by Aes Sedai at the end of the Age of Legends / during the breaking of the world and likely modelled on or inspired by their knowledge of ogier stedding.  But the nature or formation of stedding is never explained in series.

 

I tend to think that technology replaces magic as technology can be made accessible to all whereas magic can only be wielded by a few so people begin to rely on technology and the need for or use of magic becomes rarer until it finally is abandoned then forgotten.  But there's a vast span of time between where we are at the beginning of the fourth age (of seven) and the first age in which no knowledge or memory of the power exists so there's no path mapped out.

 

The Asha'man were created for a single purpose, to become living weapons to fight against The Dark One during Tarmon Gai'don, and they were created in the sure knowledge they would go mad and need to be killed in the not too distant future.

 

The cleansing of the source and the victory in the last battle changes that completely as they now can live and need to seek a new purpose, something we see with Androl and Logain in particular on the Field of Merrilor.  If you're training for a virtual suicide mission and know that if you somehow survive you will go mad and die / be killed not long after you will take risks that you won't if you return from that mission, sane and in the knowledge you will remain sane (or mostly sane!) and can live a full and happy life.  It's worth remembering that some of the Asha'man are married (e.g. Grady), even before the reciprocal bonding with Aes Sedai leads more of them into relationships (e.g. Narishma, Logain, Androl).  These are powerful reasons to become more risk averse and to revise training methods and general conduct.