Why was Lews Therin Telamon reborn?

[DJH]

Question: Is each instance of the pattern spinning out a champion an instance of rebirth? Or is LTT (the Dragon) being reborn as Rand (the Dragon Reborn) special/unique in the cycle?

Repeatedly throughout the ages, a champion of the light and a champion of the shadow are spun from the pattern to battle one another.

 

In the WOT book serious, the champions of light are Lews Therin Telamon and Rand al Thor. The champion of the shadow is Ishamael/Moridin. 
 

When Ishy visits Rand’s dreams in the early books, the things he tells Rand imply that he remembers his past lives. (Sometimes you resist, sometimes you don’t, etc.)

 

Are all the instances of the champions of light and shadow being spun out of the pattern instances of rebirth? They seem to be the same two souls spun out each time.

 

Was Lews Therin a reborn version of the previous champion of the light? Will the champion after Rand be Rand “reborn?”

 

There seems to be some debate about whether each champion of the light is the “dragon” or whether just LTT was the dragon.

 

Does each champion retain the memories of previous champions?

 

(Someone on Reddit said RJ had said Rand’s “memories” of LTT are false and just a result of madness. But in the early books, Ba’alzamon (Ishamael) does have memories of many past lives, which he shares with Rand.)

 

(I have a hunch that RJ literally changed the plot around some things from the early books such as the identity of Ba’alzamon and the nature of Mat’s memories.)

Edited June 16, 2021 by DJH

[SinisterDeath]

The "Soul" is the same through every "reincarnation". 

LTT is always the "Dragon" in the 2nd age, and Rand is always the "Dragon" in the 3rd age. It matters little if their names are the same, whether their personality is the same, or anything of the like.

In other ages, when his "soul" is spun out, he may or may not be the "Dragon", but in the 2nd & 3rd ages, he is always the "Dragon".

Ishmael/Ba'alzamon was all kinds of mad, and we don't know if he actually remembers all his prior incarnations of himself, or if that was just pure madness.

Rand's memories are real, but were tinged with madness. (mainly in the form of intrusive thoughts in the voices of his past memories) 

One subtle things we learned in the series is that Rand might have had vague memories from an earlier incarnations of the Dragon/his soul. When Rand visited Dragonmount, he went full Kwisatz Haderach.

[DJH]

1 hour ago, SinisterDeath said:

The "Soul" is the same through every "reincarnation". 

LTT is always the "Dragon" in the 2nd age, and Rand is always the "Dragon" in the 3rd age. It matters little if their names are the same, whether their personality is the same, or anything of the like.

In other ages, when his "soul" is spun out, he may or may not be the "Dragon", but in the 2nd & 3rd ages, he is always the "Dragon".

Ishmael/Ba'alzamon was all kinds of mad, and we don't know if he actually remembers all his prior incarnations of himself, or if that was just pure madness.

Rand's memories are real, but were tinged with madness. (mainly in the form of intrusive thoughts in the voices of his past memories) 

One subtle things we learned in the series is that Rand might have had vague memories from an earlier incarnations of the Dragon/his soul. When Rand visited Dragonmount, he went full Kwisatz Haderach.

So Rand does retain real memories from Lews Therin Telamon. For example, several weaves from the AOL and the ability to recognize and name the Forsaken.

 

The question then is does each reincarnation of the Champion retain memories from the previous Champion? We don’t know. For example, LTT does not say whether he retains memories from the Champion preceding him.

 

Furthermore, LTT was himself not regarded as being “reborn” nor prophesied to be reborn in that way that Rand is LTT reborn. 
 

Perhaps it has to do with the unfolding of the age. In the 2nd age, all was good until it wasn’t. Thus, the champion needed to be reborn in the 3rd age to make things better. Thus, LTT is reborn as Rand. 
 

The 4th age may be good, but will end when the DO again touches the pattern. Then the champion from the 4th age might be reborn in the 5th age?

 

In other words, the Champion of an age is only prophesied to return in the bad ages, not the good ages.

 

The reason LTT was prophesied to return as the Dragon Reborn was because the 3rd age needed him.

[SinisterDeath]

21 minutes ago, DJH said:

The 4th age may be good, but will end when the DO again touches the pattern. Then the champion from the 4th age might be reborn in the 5th age?

The DO is only ever released in the 2nd age. There may not be a Dragon in the 4th age. 

All Souls are reborn in WoT, framing the Dragon as "The Champion" is a misnomer. The Dragon is the Dragon, and Rand's Soul is always spun out as the Dragon.

Not all ages have a Dragon, and Rand can be born in future ages and not be the Dragon.

21 minutes ago, DJH said:

In other words, the Champion of an age is only prophesied to return in the bad ages, not the good ages.

We know for a fact that the 2nd and 3rd ages have a Dragon, the 4th age having a Dragon is debatable. (Also, Champion isn't the correct verbiage here.)

We don't know which Ages besides the 2nd & 3rd have a "Dragon", and We Don't know if a dragon in a different Age will always mirror the LTT/Rand prophecies. .

When it comes to "Time" and "Ages" in the Wheel of Time, future or past "2nd/3rd ages" are almost identical to the current 2nd & 3rd ages.
Rand will always be found in the "Two Rivers", Perrin will always be a "wolf brother". Mat will always be "lucky".

We can only speculate what RJ had planned for future ages. 

[SinisterDeath]

Also: This is a good resource to read answers straight from the creators mouth about a variety of topics not necessarily in the books.
https://www.theoryland.com/wheel-of-time-interview-search.php
 

[DJH]

14 minutes ago, SinisterDeath said:

The Dragon is the Dragon, and Rand's Soul is always spun out as the Dragon.

Not all ages have a Dragon, and Rand can be born in future ages and not be the Dragon.

Here you say “Rand’s soul is always spun out as the Dragon” but also that “Rand can be born and not be the Dragon.”

 

This is either a contradiction or Rand and the Dragon are two different things.

 

I’ve read other debates in other forums which argue that the title “Dragon” is unique to LTT alone, and has nothing to do with the creature nor other past/future people.

 

Likewise, I’ve read the term “champion” used to describe the various incarnations of the souls who are spun out in various ages to champion the light and shadow.

 

Either way, the answer seems to be “We DON’T know why LTT was prophesied to be reborn. Nor why he was INDEED reborn as Rand, who retained LTTs memories.” We just know that he was. 

 

We DO know however that many “champions” for the light and shadow have been spun out by the pattern thousands of times throughout the ages.

 

We DON’T know if they have been prophesied to be born/reborn in the manner of LTT (dragon) and Rand (dragon reborn). With Rand retaining memories from his previous life as LTT.

[SinisterDeath]

1 hour ago, DJH said:

Here you say “Rand’s soul is always spun out as the Dragon” but also that “Rand can be born and not be the Dragon.”

 

This is either a contradiction or Rand and the Dragon are two different things.

It's not a contradiction, those are RJ's words.

"The Dragon" is both a title, and a literal connection to the land, it's tied to his soul, but his soul isn't always spun out with that connection active.

 

1 hour ago, DJH said:

Either way, the answer seems to be “We DON’T know why LTT was prophesied to be reborn.

We know that an Aes Sedia with Foretelling prophesized it after his death.

 

1 hour ago, DJH said:

We DO know however that many “champions” for the light and shadow have been spun out by the pattern thousands of times throughout the ages.

We only know that the Dragon & Forsaken are always spun out every 2nd/3rd age. We don't know that the shadow has any other champions in other ages besides the 2nd & 3rd.

We know that there are a variety of Heroes throughout the ages that the Horn can call upon, but this battle between the shadow and light is entirely different from other conflicts that we know nothing about. ? 

 

1 hour ago, DJH said:

We DON’T know if they have been prophesied to be born/reborn in the manner of LTT (dragon) and Rand (dragon reborn). With Rand retaining memories from his previous life as LTT.

That's why it's speculation once we delve outside AoL & the 3rd age. We don't know nothin' about anything. The wheel spins for an eternity. In the age we call the 6th age, there could have been an infinitely large room, filled with an infinite number of monkey's clacking on typewriters.

In the 4th age, for all we know the Fae Realm has breached reality and the world is besieged by Fae Creatures with their tricksy fae magic.
In the 7th age, the cults of Cthulu could rise up and bring about the destruction of Earth.

[DJH]

19 minutes ago, SinisterDeath said:

We only know that the Dragon & Forsaken are always spun out every age. We don't know that the shadow has any other champions in other ages besides the 2nd & 3rd.

Very interesting! Do you have a source for this? I didn’t gather the first part from reading the books, and Ishamael and other WOT sources seem to contradict the second part. 

Edited June 16, 2021 by DJH

[SinisterDeath]

8 minutes ago, DJH said:

Very interesting! Do you have a source for this? I didn’t gather the first part from reading the books, and Ishamael and other WOT sources seem to contradict the second part. 

I forgot one important word in that.

We only know that the Dragon & the Forsaken are spun out during the 2nd & 3rd ages. Future 2nd & 3rd Ages are the same as the current one. The Dragon & Forsaken could be born in other ages besides the 2nd & 3rd, but we don't know which ages those would be.

We know that the "Dragon" Connection happens in the 2nd & 3rd ages, and it's always connected to Rand's Soul. If there's a Dragon in another age, it will always be Rand's Soul. But Rand won't always be reborn with that connection. Just like Morodin won't always be born as a psychopath.

The sources for a lot of this was in the aforementioned link. There's some really good information from RJ on a lot of this stuff.

[Merena]

2 hours ago, SinisterDeath said:

In the age we call the 6th age, there could have been an infinitely large room, filled with an infinite number of monkey's clacking on typewriters.

 

Ahhh, yes - that must be the age we are currently in. ( ? , j/k)

 

I also took Ishamael's talk of knowing all his past lives and that, in some turns, the Shadow wins out over Rand/the Dragon are lies. He talks a big talk, but many times, he's just plain lying to try to intimidate Rand/the Dragon- for example, the whole Ba'alzamon shtick.

 

[DJH]

5 hours ago, SinisterDeath said:

It's not a contradiction, those are RJ's words.

"The Dragon" is both a title, and a literal connection to the land, it's tied to his soul, but his soul isn't always spun out with that connection active.

 

We know that an Aes Sedia with Foretelling prophesized it after his death.

 

We only know that the Dragon & Forsaken are always spun out every 2nd/3rd age. We don't know that the shadow has any other champions in other ages besides the 2nd & 3rd.

We know that there are a variety of Heroes throughout the ages that the Horn can call upon, but this battle between the shadow and light is entirely different from other conflicts that we know nothing about. ? 

 

That's why it's speculation once we delve outside AoL & the 3rd age. We don't know nothin' about anything. The wheel spins for an eternity. In the age we call the 6th age, there could have been an infinitely large room, filled with an infinite number of monkey's clacking on typewriters.

In the 4th age, for all we know the Fae Realm has breached reality and the world is besieged by Fae Creatures with their tricksy fae magic.
In the 7th age, the cults of Cthulu could rise up and bring about the destruction of Earth.

Hm, so are you saying the ages repeat? That the 2nd and 3rd ages have played out thousands of times? And that they’re pretty much the same each time? Or have the same people?

 

so when Ishamael says “we’ve done this thousands of times” he means he and LTT have been spun out in the 2nd age thousands of times? And then LTT is reborn as Rand thousands of times?

 

I’m just trying to make sense of this haha. 

[SinisterDeath]

7 minutes ago, DJH said:

Hm, so are you saying the ages repeat? That the 2nd and 3rd ages have played out thousands of times? And that they’re pretty much the same each time? Or have the same people?

 

so when Ishamael says “we’ve done this thousands of times” he means he and LTT have been spun out in the 2nd age thousands of times? And then LTT is reborn as Rand thousands of times?

 

I’m just trying to make sense of this haha. 

Yep.

 

In RJs wheel of time, time is literally cyclical. 

[DJH]

33 minutes ago, SinisterDeath said:

Yep.

 

In RJs wheel of time, time is literally cyclical. 

okay. That makes sense in the sense that as I read the books over the years,  there are multiple references to this rebirth happening thousands of times, but all we ever here about is LTT. 
 

it now makes sense that LTT and Rand have been reborn thousands of times. 

[DJH]

Previously I had thought that the soul of LTT and Rand had been reborn thousands of times in other people as well. So it’s just LTT and Rand. Got it. 

[SinisterDeath]

7 hours ago, DJH said:

Previously I had thought that the soul of LTT and Rand had been reborn thousands of times in other people as well. So it’s just LTT and Rand. Got it. 

It's LTT and Rand in the 2nd and 3rd ages.

That soul can be reborn as other people, and named Steve in other ages. Still Rand's soul, just not "Rand".

[DJH]

4 hours ago, SinisterDeath said:

It's LTT and Rand in the 2nd and 3rd ages.

That soul can be reborn as other people, and named Steve in other ages. Still Rand's soul, just not "Rand".

yes, as far as continuity, that makes the most sense, but logically it doesn’t. Whenever Brigitte is spun out she’s a hero. And it’s indicated that this is the same with some others. 
 

it would be weird if the soul of LTT/Rand could be spun out in other ages and just be a normal Joe. But when spun out in the 2nd and 3rd ages the person is THE hero. 
 

when the soul is spun out in the 2nd and 3rd ages, is it always named LTT and Rand? Or does it have different names?

[SinisterDeath]

4 minutes ago, DJH said:

yes, as far as continuity, that makes the most sense, but logically it doesn’t. Whenever Brigitte is spun out she’s a hero. And it’s indicated that this is the same with some others.

Logically it makes sense that if souls are reborn without their prior lives knowledge, they'll be different people, with different names.

Wheel of Time Cosmology is cyclical time. Heroes of the horn are another thing, and they aren't always named Brigitte & Cain, but they're almost always the same souls reborn around the same time, "destined" to meet.

 

 

7 minutes ago, DJH said:

when the soul is spun out in the 2nd and 3rd ages, is it always named LTT and Rand? Or does it have different names?

https://www.theoryland.com/intvsresults.php?kw=age+lace

 

Hard to say. A "Name" is just a series of sounds we make to call each other. Rand & all Aiel could have Gray hair with Violet eyes, and it wouldn't change the overall tapestry. 

[DJH]

49 minutes ago, SinisterDeath said:

Logically it makes sense that if souls are reborn without their prior lives knowledge, they'll be different people, with different names.

Wheel of Time Cosmology is cyclical time. Heroes of the horn are another thing, and they aren't always named Brigitte & Cain, but they're almost always the same souls reborn around the same time, "destined" to meet.

 

 

https://www.theoryland.com/intvsresults.php?kw=age+lace

 

Hard to say. A "Name" is just a series of sounds we make to call each other. Rand & all Aiel could have Gray hair with Violet eyes, and it wouldn't change the overall tapestry. 

Okay. Let me take another stab at this:

 

In the beginning, the Creator created the wot/pattern and imprisoned the DO outside of it. 
 

The wot cycles through many ages (how many?). The same finite amount of souls are spun out into the pattern in various ages repeatedly and cyclically. 
 

One special soul in particular is spun out into the pattern in various ages, but in the 2nd age it is spun out as a messiah/savior who fails to contain the DO. This soul is then always prophesied to be reincarnated in the 3rd age and indeed it is. 

 

In one instance at least of this pattern, the soul is named LTT and when reincarnated it is named Rand. We don’t know whether this soul is always named LTT in the 2nd age and always named Rand in the 3rd age. The 2nd and 3rd ages have similar overall macro patterns as they repeat albeit with micro differences. So the name/personality of the hero might be different. 
 

We do know that Ishamael claims to have knowledge and even memories of this messiah living and being reincarnated countless times.  Are these memories from direct experience or is this information given to him by the DO?

[SinisterDeath]

1 minute ago, DJH said:

Okay. Let me take another stab at this:

 

In the beginning, the Creator created the wot/pattern and imprisoned the DO outside of it. 
 

The wot cycles through many ages (how many?). The same finite amount of souls are spun out into the pattern in various ages repeatedly and cyclically. 
 

One special soul in particular is spun out into the pattern in various ages, but in the 2nd age it is spun out as a messiah/savior who fails to contain the DO. This soul is then always prophesied to be reincarnated in the 3rd age and indeed it is. 

 

In one instance at least of this pattern, the soul is named LTT and when reincarnated it is named Rand. We don’t know whether this soul is always named LTT in the 2nd age and always named Rand in the 3rd age. The 2nd and 3rd ages have similar overall macro patterns as they repeat albeit with micro differences. So the name/personality of the hero might be different. 

Spot on.

 

2 minutes ago, DJH said:

We do know that Ishamael claims to have knowledge and even memories of this messiah living and being reincarnated countless times.  Are these memories from direct experience or is this information given to him by the DO?

Honestly? No idea. 

[Sabio]

There will always be a Dragon and a dark champion.  Those will be LTT and Ishy, as they are the few souls who are connected.  But if I remember right RJ said LTT isn't always the dragon.  Few are born again and again for heroic roles, which is why there will be Forsaken next time but the chances are they won't be the same souls.  It would go against the free will theme if everyone was always forced to be on team light or team shadow.  The people helping the dragon are likely not to be the same souls either.

[SinisterDeath]

[DJH]

53 minutes ago, SinisterDeath said:

Very good!

 

So the reason the dragon is spun out is to balance the weave of pattern from the DO having too much influence.

 

This doesn’t tell us why this soul (messiah) was prophesied to be reborn in the next age and indeed was reborn.

 

[Note some people argue that ONLY LTT is the dragon, and that all past and future 2nd age messiahs may not be called the Dragon. Thoughts?]

 

We can assume that this same pattern unfolds each 2nd and 3rd age. Messiah is spun out, doesn’t finish the job in the 2nd age; is prophesied to return, indeed is spun out again the 3rd age.

 

Why isn’t a different hero spun out in the 3rd age to finish the job? Why does the messiah get a second chance?

 

Are LTT and Rand indeed the same soul? Or are they different souls? (Edit: yes, according to sources they are the same soul.)

 

Is the messiah being reborn a unique iteration of this particular 2nd and 3rd age, or does that happen almost every 2nd and 3rd age?

 

Many “hero” souls are tied to the wheel and reborn/re-spun into the pattern by the creator to balance the weave. 
 

For some reason, the messiah soul was spun out, failed, was prophesied to be spun out again in the following age, and was indeed.

 

As far as I can tell, we are never given a reason why this is the case. 

Edited June 18, 2021 by DJH

[SinisterDeath]

4 minutes ago, DJH said:

Are LTT and Rand indeed the same soul? Or are they different souls?

Same soul. 

 

The concept of a soul doesn't mean each iteration of that person is identical to the next, with the same personalities, or thoughts.

 

One takeaway from the Interview Database is that in the next 3rd age, the DR may not be named "Rand" but it is the same Soul.

Brandon Sanderson mentioned in the interview database that in another turning of the wheel, that if the dragon had been killed, someone else would have taken his place, at the very least implying that the Dragon isn't always directly tied to LTT/Rand's soul. 
We can say for certain that the "Dragon" in the 2nd & 3rd is tied to LTT/Rand, and that LTT/Rand when reborn in future/past ages isn't always the "Dragon", but there's some fuzzy area as to whether other Dragons/Souls are the Dragon in different ages.

 

8 minutes ago, DJH said:

Is the messiah being reborn a unique iteration of this particular 2nd and 3rd age, or does that happen almost every 2nd and 3rd age?

RJ was quite adamant that cyclical time in WoT is truly cyclical, yet allowed small changes which is contradictory to cyclical time.

 

Which brings us to this

10 hours ago, Sabio said:

It would go against the free will theme if everyone was always forced to be on team light or team shadow.

Which begs the question how much free-will there truly is within this wheel of time universe? Is it merely the illusion of free will? Is it limited Free Will? Can the wheel ever be broken?

[SinisterDeath]

14 minutes ago, SinisterDeath said:

Brandon Sanderson mentioned in the interview database that in another turning of the wheel, that if the dragon had been killed, someone else would have taken his place, at the very least implying that the Dragon isn't always directly tied to LTT/Rand's soul. 

I forgot to mention. 
It's similar to how in Harry Potter, Neville was also the chosen one as a contingency should Harry fail.
Had Rand been killed, it's possible the wheel would have changed the threads of Destiny and made Logain the Dragon.

[DJH]

The main confusion comes from prophesied nature of the rebirth.

 

Reincarnation is part of the wheel of time universe. But having a specific person/soul prophesied to be reborn is unique. 
 

Greandal says it best:

 

Quote

How do you know?" – Graendal asked, smiling as if it were a joke. "It may well be that, as many believe, all are born and reborn as the Wheel turns, but nothing like this has ever happened that I have read. A specific man reborn according to prophecy. Who knows what he is? ^[3]

 

this entry has a bunch of relevant info for this topic:

 

https://wot.fandom.com/wiki/Dragon

 

On the one hand, the dragon is the term for the champion/messiah spun out by the pattern to deal SPECIFICALLY with the DO. Other heroes are spun out for other things, but the messiah is spun out to deal with the DO. 
 

The books indicate that the term “dragon” is specific to this particular 2nd and 3rd age. The messiah may have different names in other iterations of the 2nd and 3rd age (if this pattern indeed repeats). 
 

for example, the sea folk and aiel had different, none dragon, titles for the messiah. 
 

So, a la Graendal, no one knows why this messiah-soul got a second chance and was prophesied to be reborn—as this isn’t the case for any other soul that is reborn/re-spun into the pattern.