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DRAGONMOUNT

A WHEEL OF TIME COMMUNITY

DJH

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  1. Books 7-10 could benefit from a major re-write to be honest. There are absolutely important, cool, and fun plot points that take place in those books, but it’s also true that the story in those 4 books meanders, stagnates, and is repetitive. Those 4 books are responsible for keeping many a poor soul from finishing the series. Tuon is one of the cooler, unique characters. Many of the female characters are, let’s be honest, indistinguishable from one another. All gorgeous, white, know-it-all, and nagging. Tuon is a breath of fresh air. Would have LOVED much, much more page time given to her. But now we are waaay off topic. Cheers! edit: one of my favorite “scenes” from the ENTIRE series, and one of the best written, is Tuon’s and Rand first interaction.
  2. Yes, thanks so much for the resources, both of you. remember that before Ishy was Ishy, ba-alzamon, and Moridin, he was Elan. A very powerful channeler; I think as powerful as Rand/LTT. If he’s not a hero of the horn, I’m not sure how he would have faced LTT/Rand “thousands of times.” (Need to find the relevant source for that.) it couldn’t have been in the 3,000 year period in the book’s 2nd and 3rd ages. He could be referring to other 2nd and 3rd ages, or just other ages altogether. I need to read about the nature of their connection. They seemed to be connected pre-balefire crossing, but that made things go wacky. And then of course the ending.
  3. Two things: I can’t believe the seanchan were introduced so early in the series (book 2) but we only meet tuon closer to the end. Would have loved more of tuon and mat honestly. I think the overall plot was VERY fluid in the first several books. The identity of Ba-alzamon and Ishamael, the nature of Mat and his memories (there are hints that he was shaping up to be a reborn hero too, but then RJ moved away from that), and this issue with LTT/Rand being reborn and then as the series progressed reincarnation became a pretty central them, not just the heroes. anyhow the prophecy/rebirth of LTT/Rand is still unique. Seems tied to the DO, and the opening, sealing, resealing of the bore.
  4. hm. Excellent points. I went back and looked at the relevant text and it’s still ambiguous. Does AH know LTT because LTT is a hero tied to the wheel (like him) or does he know LTT because LTT summons him with the horn repeatedly throughout the ages. for example, when he says “I have fought along your side countless times and faced you as many more.” he *could* mean via the horn. Sometimes AH and the heroes have been called with the horn by the light and sometimes by the shadow. (However in the last book, it is said the heroes of the horn would never fight for the shadow.) having said that, it seem like LTT (or at least his soul) is a hero of the horn that is spun out into the pattern as the pattern sees fit. AH says when May asks if 100 is all the heroes “you could tell him LTT if you could remember when you wore flesh.” (shouldn’t that say “when you *last* wore flesh...) Anyhow, haha, it’s all still pretty unclear. The soul of LTT/Rand seems to be a hero tide to the pattern which is spun out throughout the ages like AH. Sometimes they battle each other sometimes not. rand says he recognizes ALL the heroes and each of them has “a hundred” names. So LTT/Rand probably have a hundred different names too. but why in this instance was the soul of LTT/Rand prophesied and reborn with memories retained, we still don’t know. It must have been what the pattern needed based on the bore and DO.
  5. Does Ishamael provide an explanation as to why the messiah—in this case, LTT—is prophesied and reborn—in this case, as Rand? We can’t trust the forsaken. But graendal seems baffled by the prophesy and rebirth. Ishamael says a messiah has been spun and reborn thousands of times. who to believe? Either way, we don’t have a reason. That’s the knowledge I’m searching for. As far as the title “dragon,” Ishameal is the one who says in the book that the messiah—in this case, LTT—was given that title during the age. Other cultures referred to the reborn messiah with different titles. The title “dragon” seems to be unique to this iteration of the 2nd and 3rd age. In other words, the messiah spun out to deal with the DO may not always be called “dragon.” Furthermore, we can’t say for certain that a messiah is always spun out in the 2nd age and reborn in the 3rd age. It seems like that’s the case, but there’s just enough ambiguity that we can’t say for certain.
  6. The main confusion comes from prophesied nature of the rebirth. Reincarnation is part of the wheel of time universe. But having a specific person/soul prophesied to be reborn is unique. Greandal says it best: this entry has a bunch of relevant info for this topic: https://wot.fandom.com/wiki/Dragon On the one hand, the dragon is the term for the champion/messiah spun out by the pattern to deal SPECIFICALLY with the DO. Other heroes are spun out for other things, but the messiah is spun out to deal with the DO. The books indicate that the term “dragon” is specific to this particular 2nd and 3rd age. The messiah may have different names in other iterations of the 2nd and 3rd age (if this pattern indeed repeats). for example, the sea folk and aiel had different, none dragon, titles for the messiah. So, a la Graendal, no one knows why this messiah-soul got a second chance and was prophesied to be reborn—as this isn’t the case for any other soul that is reborn/re-spun into the pattern.
  7. Very good! So the reason the dragon is spun out is to balance the weave of pattern from the DO having too much influence. This doesn’t tell us why this soul (messiah) was prophesied to be reborn in the next age and indeed was reborn. [Note some people argue that ONLY LTT is the dragon, and that all past and future 2nd age messiahs may not be called the Dragon. Thoughts?] We can assume that this same pattern unfolds each 2nd and 3rd age. Messiah is spun out, doesn’t finish the job in the 2nd age; is prophesied to return, indeed is spun out again the 3rd age. Why isn’t a different hero spun out in the 3rd age to finish the job? Why does the messiah get a second chance? Are LTT and Rand indeed the same soul? Or are they different souls? (Edit: yes, according to sources they are the same soul.) Is the messiah being reborn a unique iteration of this particular 2nd and 3rd age, or does that happen almost every 2nd and 3rd age? Many “hero” souls are tied to the wheel and reborn/re-spun into the pattern by the creator to balance the weave. For some reason, the messiah soul was spun out, failed, was prophesied to be spun out again in the following age, and was indeed. As far as I can tell, we are never given a reason why this is the case.
  8. Okay. Let me take another stab at this: In the beginning, the Creator created the wot/pattern and imprisoned the DO outside of it. The wot cycles through many ages (how many?). The same finite amount of souls are spun out into the pattern in various ages repeatedly and cyclically. One special soul in particular is spun out into the pattern in various ages, but in the 2nd age it is spun out as a messiah/savior who fails to contain the DO. This soul is then always prophesied to be reincarnated in the 3rd age and indeed it is. In one instance at least of this pattern, the soul is named LTT and when reincarnated it is named Rand. We don’t know whether this soul is always named LTT in the 2nd age and always named Rand in the 3rd age. The 2nd and 3rd ages have similar overall macro patterns as they repeat albeit with micro differences. So the name/personality of the hero might be different. We do know that Ishamael claims to have knowledge and even memories of this messiah living and being reincarnated countless times. Are these memories from direct experience or is this information given to him by the DO?
  9. yes, as far as continuity, that makes the most sense, but logically it doesn’t. Whenever Brigitte is spun out she’s a hero. And it’s indicated that this is the same with some others. it would be weird if the soul of LTT/Rand could be spun out in other ages and just be a normal Joe. But when spun out in the 2nd and 3rd ages the person is THE hero. when the soul is spun out in the 2nd and 3rd ages, is it always named LTT and Rand? Or does it have different names?
  10. Previously I had thought that the soul of LTT and Rand had been reborn thousands of times in other people as well. So it’s just LTT and Rand. Got it.
  11. okay. That makes sense in the sense that as I read the books over the years, there are multiple references to this rebirth happening thousands of times, but all we ever here about is LTT. it now makes sense that LTT and Rand have been reborn thousands of times.
  12. Hm, so are you saying the ages repeat? That the 2nd and 3rd ages have played out thousands of times? And that they’re pretty much the same each time? Or have the same people? so when Ishamael says “we’ve done this thousands of times” he means he and LTT have been spun out in the 2nd age thousands of times? And then LTT is reborn as Rand thousands of times? I’m just trying to make sense of this haha.
  13. Very interesting! Do you have a source for this? I didn’t gather the first part from reading the books, and Ishamael and other WOT sources seem to contradict the second part.
  14. Here you say “Rand’s soul is always spun out as the Dragon” but also that “Rand can be born and not be the Dragon.” This is either a contradiction or Rand and the Dragon are two different things. I’ve read other debates in other forums which argue that the title “Dragon” is unique to LTT alone, and has nothing to do with the creature nor other past/future people. Likewise, I’ve read the term “champion” used to describe the various incarnations of the souls who are spun out in various ages to champion the light and shadow. Either way, the answer seems to be “We DON’T know why LTT was prophesied to be reborn. Nor why he was INDEED reborn as Rand, who retained LTTs memories.” We just know that he was. We DO know however that many “champions” for the light and shadow have been spun out by the pattern thousands of times throughout the ages. We DON’T know if they have been prophesied to be born/reborn in the manner of LTT (dragon) and Rand (dragon reborn). With Rand retaining memories from his previous life as LTT.
  15. So Rand does retain real memories from Lews Therin Telamon. For example, several weaves from the AOL and the ability to recognize and name the Forsaken. The question then is does each reincarnation of the Champion retain memories from the previous Champion? We don’t know. For example, LTT does not say whether he retains memories from the Champion preceding him. Furthermore, LTT was himself not regarded as being “reborn” nor prophesied to be reborn in that way that Rand is LTT reborn. Perhaps it has to do with the unfolding of the age. In the 2nd age, all was good until it wasn’t. Thus, the champion needed to be reborn in the 3rd age to make things better. Thus, LTT is reborn as Rand. The 4th age may be good, but will end when the DO again touches the pattern. Then the champion from the 4th age might be reborn in the 5th age? In other words, the Champion of an age is only prophesied to return in the bad ages, not the good ages. The reason LTT was prophesied to return as the Dragon Reborn was because the 3rd age needed him.
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