How old is Amys anyway?

[BrainFireBob]

Personal theory is that the jewelry the Wise Ones wear represent skills, talents, and, for want of a better term, "levels."

 

Consequently, the hierarchy is determined by how skilled they are, which is determined by the number of bracelets, etc., they possess.

 

So seniority matters- more seniority is more opportunity to learn, after all- but so does talent.

 

My support is that the "apprentices," including Aes Sedai, are seen to wear necklaces, bracelets, or some other single piece of jewelry when the Wise Ones are pleased with their progress.

[cloglord]

"The last of the four, a handsome woman with golden-red hair [Melaine], no more than ten or fifteen years older than Egwene,...

 

TSR Chapter 23

 

In ACOS CHapter 10, Egwene thinks that Melaine and Amys are about as strong as Theodrin and Faolain. She also thinks that Theodrin and Faolain are stronger than the average Aes Sedai.

 

 

 

TPOD CH. 28: Kirstian is unmasked as a runaway novice from nearly 300 years before.

 

TPOD Ch. 1: Kirstian is as strong a channeler as Reanne Corly. She appears to be 10 years older than Nynaeve, (early 30's.)

 

ACoS Ch.23: Reane is not as strong as Nicola, but as strong as Sheriam, Kwamesa or Kiruna.

 

If Kirstian is at least as strong as Reanne, and Reanne is as strong as Sheriam, then Kirstian is above average for aes sedai.

 

Melaine is a strong as Theodrin who is above average for Aes Sedai. Kirstian is as strong as Reanne, who is as strong as Sheriam, an above average aes sedai. Clearly they are both above average in OP strength. Kirstian appears to be in her early 30's as does Melaine. Kirtian is over 300 years old. So how old do you think Melaine is then, Luckers?

 

Oh, one more thing that I almost forgot.

 

Cadsuane makes her deduction based on the assumption that channelers only live to be around 300.

 

Why do you assume her assumption. She is presumably the olderst and wisest Aes Sedai there is, not to mention the fact that after her being raised, she was taught by a toothless old wilder in the black hills. Presumably she has had the last 300 years to reflect on why her teacher didn't possess the aes sedai agelessness.

[Beckon]

If Kirstian is around 300, and slowed around 20 then it's taken her 280 years to appear to age 10 years. So she's appearing to age 1 year about every 28 years. When she was 150 years old she would have been slowing for about 130, and maybe had aged 4-5 years making her appear 24-25. Someone might still have looked at her and said she looked to be about 30.

 

There are several other things to take into consideration:

 

1) Some people age better than others.

2) Some people begin channeling later than others.

3) Some people begin slowing later than others.

 

If Melaine began channeling later, then she probably began slowing later. In that case she may have been in her early 20s before she began to slow. She may also have looked older than she was. She could conceivably have looked to be in her mid-late 20s by the time she even began to slow. In which case she could be anywhere from 30-ish to 300-ish.

 

Additionally Kirstian could be aging better than average on top of the slowing caused by channeling. It may be that the average apparent age for someone around 300 is older than 30. Reanne is of similar strength and looks to be about 50. Her hair is gray, and she's beginning to wrinkle. She's about 100 years older than Kirstian so 400, and she looks 15-20 years older than Kirstian. Based on the math I used for Kirstian, if you assume all channelers slow at the same rate, then by Reanne's appearance of being around 50, then her actual age would be almost 500 which we know to be wrong.

 

Long story short, nothing about Melaine's age can be derived from Kirstian's apparent age. :P

[cloglord]

All valid points Beckon, but I'm not trying to claim the Melaine is 300, merely that she could be. Since the common wisdom says that she is not that old, I was simply pointing out that it does not nessecarily mean that she is.

[BrainFireBob]

You cannot use Aes Sedai for comparison.

 

Aes Sedai only get half the anagenic benefits of channelling. A 300 year old Aes Sedai is as "old" as a 600 year old non-Aes Sedai of the same strength.

[Beckon]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but Melaine's marriage to Bael is her first is it not? Do we think the other Wise Ones, Sorilea in particular, would have let her go 300 years without marrying her off to some clan chief?

[Luckers]

The only indication we have about Aiel finding and training learners is that they find every woman 'sooner or later'. Apparent age is not nessasarily a good guide especially to someone whose lived her life in an arid desert. Especially not when compared to a weaver from Ebou Dar.

 

The way the other Wise Ones speak to her, the mistakes she makes in the meeting with Moiraine, the fact that Bael is her first marriage... it all suggests to me that Melaine is barely out of her apprenticeship. I'd say she's been a Wise One maybe two years prior to us meeting her, with maybe vie to ten years as an apprentice (it could be as much as 20, depending on how fast she learnt, though given her strength i doubt it).

[cloglord]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but Melaine's marriage to Bael is her first is it not?

 

I haven't ever read anything that indicated one way or the other.

 

You cannot use Aes Sedai for comparison.

 

The hell I can't. I was only using Aes Sedai in strength comparison. Neither Kirstian nor Melaine is bound by the 3 oaths. The other comparisons were to help compare relative OP strengths which are unaffected by the 3 oaths.

 

I'm still waiting for someone to tell me how Melaine can be stronger than average, appear to be 30, and still have only been a wise one for a few years. Anyone?

[Beckon]

1) Some people age better than others.

2) Some people begin channeling later than others.

3) Some people begin slowing later than others.

 

If Melaine began channeling later, then she probably began slowing later. In that case she may have been in her early 20s before she began to slow. She may also have looked older than she was. She could conceivably have looked to be in her mid-late 20s by the time she even began to slow. In which case she could be anywhere from 30-ish to 300-ish.

 

If she was a late bloomer channeling wise...say 18 or 19, and then began to slow 5-ish years later at 23 or 24, then she was of an age that a casual observer might call her 30-ish at the time she began to slow. It would be very easy for her to look 30-ish and actually be 30-ish. If she slowed late (at 25-26) in addition to beginning to channel late that makes it even easier. If she's aging at a rate closer to Reanne than Kirstian it's easier still. Then there's the harsh climate she lives in. She doesn't need to be old to appear to be 30. If she really is 30-ish then she wouldn't have been a full Wise One for more than a few years.

[Lord Beric]

I'm still waiting for someone to tell me how Melaine can be stronger than average' date=' appear to be 30, and still have only been a wise one for a few years. Anyone?[/quote']

 

Do we know for certain that Melaine had the ability to channel born into her? If she were instead someone who could learn to channel, that would clear up a lot.

 

As far as other Wise One ages go, I have a couple of examples from LoC that may shed some light on the situation.

 

In Courage to Strengthen Sorilea offers to arrange a marriage for Egwene to "My greatdaughter Amaryn's youngest greatson, Taric." Who "will be a clan chief someday" and (we can assume) is roughly Egwene's age.

 

Granted this is an extremely rough way to estimate age, but if there are six generations between Sorilea and Egwene, giving her an age of too much more than 300 years would seem risky.

 

Also in LoC, A Pile of Sand, we get a much more direct reference to a Wise One's age, in reference to Mora, a Wise One Dreamwalker whom Bair remembers while answering Egwene's questions about being pulled into Gawyn's dream.

 

Bair: "It was said she was approaching her three hundredth year when she died from a bloodsnake's bite, yet she looked as young as either of you [Amys and Melaine]. . . . She knew many things, and could channel strongly. . . ."

 

Egwene: "Three hundred?"

 

Bair: "I said it was said. Some women age more slowly than others, like Amys here. . . ."

 

From this we can make several assumptions.

One: For this woman (Mora) 300 was roughly middle-aged.

Two: Since Bair seems slightly disbelieving of the stories regarding Mora, Wise One's living this long (or longer) cannot be TOO overly common.

Three: Bair make reference to Amys as aging slowly, but not Melaine, who is also in the same room/tent. Thus, to Bair at least, there is not too much of a noticable difference between Melaine's apparant and actual ages.

 

Also, Bair (who cannot channel, and looks, physically, to be older than Amys and Melaine) is the only one of the three to have actually met Mora, and it was when she was "only a girl."

 

I hope this doesn't add too much to the confusion.

[cloglord]

Sorry Beckon you had adressed it, and I forgot. I don't agree however.

 

According to the BWB no female channeller in the AoL ever began channelling after the age of 21. So if we go on the assumption that Melaine started at this late date, it would still mean that she would have to have apparently aged 10 years to be gauged to be in her early 30's.

 

I have not yet read one instance of the fair haired and skinned aiel looking older than their years. Sorelia is described as leathery, but that does not mean that the Aiel prematurely age, even given the extreme environment they live in. Take Avhienda for example, she doesn't look tough and leathery, nor does she look any older than she is.

 

I can't readily find a reference that narrows down the time between the advent of slowing and the advent of channelling, but I doubt that it is as much as five years. But, for the sake of argument, lets say it is. That would mean that worst case scenario, Melaine is 26 when she starts slowing. That's still an apparent 5 years of age. If we take your 28/1 ratio then it would make Melaine 166. Even at a much smaller ratio, she is older than 30. That is unless you think that someone would call a 26 year old, (at most,) in her early 30's

 

Even if everything did go your way, that she did start channelling late, slowed, late, had tanned excessively, AND had her age guessed by someone with an astigmatism, which do you think is more likely, that she's a withered 26 year old channeler, or that she is in fact older than she appears?

[Beckon]

Where did I say she started channeling after 21? I said 18-19, which would mean she didn't slow til 23-24 at least. You don't begin slowing the instant you begin channeling, it's not til 5 or so years later.

 

I don't have the books with me to give an exact quote but it's in CoS, the chapter where Elayne and Nynaeve first meet the Kin. Elayne is wondering how old Reanne must be and Nynaeve's not catching on. Elayne states women begin to age more slowly between 20-25, which, if they begin to channel around 15-16 usually, is 5 OR MORE years later.

 

That would mean that worst case scenario, Melaine is 26 when she starts slowing.

 

Exactly: 26, when she starts slowing. 26 is 30-ish. She can be 30-ish and look 30-ish at the same time. She could be 166, but she could just as easily be exactly as old as she looks.

[cloglord]

I went to the books for the facts, and came up with the worst case scenario of 26. I am wondering where you got the number of 5 years between 1st channelling and slowing though, would love to see a quote on that.

 

She could be 166, but she could just as easily be exactly as old as she looks.

 

No she couldn't she could only be 30 if all of those things mentioned above were true. she is more likely to be 166 than 30.

[Beckon]

I edited the above post for the five year reference.

 

 

You're still not seeing the point though. If she's 26 when she begins to slow then there is a situation of her looking 30-ish while actually being 30-ish. Why can you not grasp this?

[BrainFireBob]

Correct me if I'm wrong' date=' but Melaine's marriage to Bael is her first is it not?[/quote']

 

I haven't ever read anything that indicated one way or the other.

 

You cannot use Aes Sedai for comparison.

 

The hell I can't. I was only using Aes Sedai in strength comparison. Neither Kirstian nor Melaine is bound by the 3 oaths. The other comparisons were to help compare relative OP strengths which are unaffected by the 3 oaths.

 

I'm still waiting for someone to tell me how Melaine can be stronger than average, appear to be 30, and still have only been a wise one for a few years. Anyone?

 

Sun ages your skin. Ta-da.

 

Also, how does "You have always said you never wanted a husband, nor needed one" from TSR not read as "Bael is Melaine's first husband?"

[Paradox]

If everything in the description of here persona points to a fairly young WO, and if it's not explicitly stated that she had the spark inborn, then why not just assume that she learned to channel at say 25? You know Occam's razor and all that

[cloglord]

Sun ages your skin. Ta-da.

 

Also, how does "You have always said you never wanted a husband, nor needed one" from TSR not read as "Bael is Melaine's first husband?"

 

Sun does age your skin if you are exposed to it, but the aiel don't allow themselves to be exposed to it. Take Avhienda as an example. Rand thinks to himself, during their little icehouse escapade that Avhienda is fair skinned. You tell me, is Avhienda beautiful or sun damaged? Does she look young?

 

As for the quote about Melaine never wanting nor needing a husband, I don't remember that passage. I'm not saying its not there, but would like a chapter number.

 

You're still not seeing the point though. If she's 26 when she begins to slow then there is a situation of her looking 30-ish while actually being 30-ish. Why can you not grasp this?

 

I am seeing the point, and I grasp it just fine. Why don't you answer the question I asked? Which is more likely, that she is a 30 year old channeler that has not apreciably slowed, or that she is an older channeler that has slowed to the point that she looks to be 30? Which is more likely?

[Beckon]

No she couldn't she could only be 30 if all of those things mentioned above were true.

 

This is you seeming not to grasp it. When you grasp something and accept that it's possible it's generally customary to stop insisting that it's not possible. Why is she more likely to be 166? Other than the fact that you want her to be old to suit your theory that she met her Aes Sedai long enough ago for them to have forgotten about it? The other Wise Ones don't treat her as though she's significantly older than she looks.

 

Even if everything did go your way, that she did start channelling late, slowed, late, had tanned excessively, AND had her age guessed by someone with an astigmatism, which do you think is more likely, that she's a withered 26 year old channeler, or that she is in fact older than she appears?

 

I did not say all of those things were true. They were examples of things that could cause variation between apparent ages of channelers of similar strength. Guessing someone's age by their appearance is not an exact science. There's only 4 years between 26 and 30. Withered? Appearing to be 25-30 years old is hardly withered. She's marrying for the first time, pregnant with her first children. How likely is that to be the story of someone as old as you want Melaine to be?

 

Aside from those things I never even claimed to be of the opinion that Melaine is only 30. I was showing that it is possible for her to be exactly as old as she looks, and could be any age in between 30 and 300. I don't buy 300 or even 166, because of the reasons stated above: she's recently married for the first time, recently pregnant with her first children, and the other Wise Ones don't seem to treat her as though she's significantly older than she looks.

[cloglord]

You're still not seeing the point though. If she's 26 when she begins to slow then there is a situation of her looking 30-ish while actually being 30-ish. Why can you not grasp this?

 

I do get it, there is A situation where she can be 30. I get it. No debate there, its possible. Its also possible that she's 31. She could also be 32. 33 is a definate possibility, as is 34. She could be 35,36, or even 37. Perhaps she could be 38? Maybe she is 39? 40? I can see a situation where she is in her 40's, its even possible that she could be in her 50's. 60's anyone? How about 70, do you maybe think she could be 70 something? Can we have 100? 150?

 

I get it. She COULD be 30, she could also be any age between 30 and 300. Why can't you answer the simple question? Is it more likely that she is 30 or that she is older than 30?

 

On the subject of Melaine's relationship to the other wiseones. In TSR Ch. 50 she is cut off from making a comment about a bridal wreath. This ended with Bair and Seanna looking daggers at her. It is interesting to note that Melaine doesn't seem to care in the slightest. Does that sound like the reaction of a blundering novice wiseone, or one that is secure enough in her position to be uncaring of what her peers think?

 

As to her marital status or the nuymber of children she's had, I'm still waiting for a direct quote. As for brainfirebob's assertion that there is a quote in TSR, I din't find it. I can't find my copy of TFoH so I didn't follow up there, but considering that BFB didn't even get the book he was quoting right, I doubt that anyone will come up with it. This and some of the other infuriating topcs I've posted in have given me an idea. I'm gonna go start a new thread.

[Beckon]

Yes she's probably older than 30, but she's nowhere near as old as you're insisting she must be. Is that plain enough for you?

 

 

No she couldn't she could only be 30 if all of those things mentioned above were true.

 

I'm still waiting for someone to tell me how Melaine can be stronger than average, appear to be 30, and still have only been a wise one for a few years. Anyone?

 

Both of these are you doubting the possibility after a several people gave examples of how it's possible. Nobody but you seems to have any trouble believing she's not much older than she looks. In the future ask the question you mean the first time and nobody will have to waste their time restating what they've already explained.

[Elwinn Taron]

The quote about never wanting a husband is in FoH, Chapter5, "Among the Wise Ones." It is in the sweat tent with Aviendha and Egwene, when she asks Amys and Bair to help her talk to Dorhinda about a sister wife. To be fair, there is a tone to the "never wanted or needed a husband" that might make you think she is older than the 30ish she seems.

 

To throw another stick in the spokes, though, in Salidar, before Siuan and Leane are Healed, there is mention that the Yellows have commented on their youthful appearance, and that they "seem to be in their prime child-bearing years." Which seems to say, to me anyway, that even if Aes Sedai slow, their childbearing days don't last any longer than for other women. And as we all know, Melaine is pregnent.

 

And now I'm going to go look for your new topic.

[Wolfwalker]

As to her marital status or the nuymber of children she's had' date=' I'm still waiting for a direct quote. As for brainfirebob's assertion that there is a quote in TSR, I din't find it. I can't find my copy of TFoH so I didn't follow up there, but considering that BFB didn't even get the book he was quoting right, I doubt that anyone will come up with it. .[/quote']

 

It is in TFoH. The chapter is Among the Wise Ones, and it's on pg. 150 (paperpack). I had the opposite problem to you- I no longer have my copy of TSR. :(

[cloglord]

Thanks for the quote Elwhin. I concede that Melaine had not been married.

 

I have a 93 year old great aunt who's never been married either....

 

As to her child bearing age, I am unsure why slowing would not effect that as well. Since I doubt we'll find anything concrete on that obscure subject, I'll leave it alone, unless I can think of some good means to refute it. In the meantime, I'll just disagree.

[BrainFireBob]

Allright, cloglord, I don't appreciate ad hominems or putdowns by people that don't clearly remember the contents of the story.

 

Bair comments that when she was young, there was a Wise One known as Moira- this is when Egwene was asking about whether it is possible to be pulled into the dream against your will, in LoC- in reference to Gawyn's dreams.

 

Moira told her it had happened to her twice, once with her first husband, and once with a rival for her third husband's interest.

 

Melaine comments that she had learned every tale of Moira AS A GIRL.

 

Bair can't channel. Bair's old. Melaine is no older than at most fifty or sixty, and probably younger than that.

 

And the Aiel are only fair where they don't let themselves be exposed to the sun- not including their faces. Let me remind you of all the references to "sundark faces," "sun darkened faces," "sun-darkened face" used in reference to the Aiel.

 

Damn kids.

[Trib4l]