Thoughts on the Ending of the Great Hunt

[Denver Steve]

I was thinking about that fight in the sky at the end of the book.....

 

Perhaps this has been though of and addressed before, I didn't search too hard....

 

Anyway,  Is Rand's soul one of the Hero's souls tied to the Horn of Valere?   If the Horn summons Hero's from the dream world and the fog or mist they seem to come out of is like a pathway between the dream world and the real world, could it be that Hero's currently living in the real world could access this foggy pathway as well?

Does the summoning go both ways?  

 

This could explain the battle in the clouds between Rand in Ishamael.   Rand was basically summoned to the Horn of Valere's foggy/misty, portal, pathway thing, it rose and became a cloud, and Ishamael followed him there.

 

Just some idle thoughts,

Tai Shar Manetherin

[Sabio]

Problem is RJ said Ishy and LTT's souls are connected, so I guess if LTT was a hero of the horn it would mean Ishy was one also.  

[Denver Steve]

That'd make even more sense then cause the horn would summon both of them from wherever they are and put them in the same mist/fog/cloud where they would then inevitably duke it out.

 

For a Hero from the dream world, or possibly even a 3,500 Yr. Old Forsaken, the Horn summoning would make perfect sense & they'd know what is going on.  But anyone living in the waking world, who is a reincarnated hero, wouldn't know about it at all, and the process of being summoned by the horn would be confusing.  Hence Rands confusion, and ours since we are reading from his perspective.

Edited December 7, 2019 by Denver Steve

[wotfan4472]

Rand is connected through his soul not just being a Hero of the Horn, but the Heroes commander, being the Creator's Champion. Ishamael, however was not a Hero; he was linked, because of the time paradox that happened when Moridin and Rand crossed their balefire streams in book seven. It linked them not just in the present, and the future until the Last Battle, but also the past, such as the Battle of Falme and the mirror merge dream in book one.

 

This ending to me, and the mirror merge scene are all giving an indication on how powerful their balefire streams actually were. Because everything from the first page of the story, with the trip Rand and Tam took to Emonds Field and on should never have happened, as in being completely erased, like Flashpoint, so because of that issue, the Pattern compensated, by merging their two souls and also foreshadowing it with the dream in book one and then preparing for it in book two with the battle. It also explains why the Dark One brought Ishamael back after book three, as much as Ishamael saying they were connected. He clearly thought it was due to their fighting since the moment of Creation. If there were other fights, then it could have been that the balefire crossing that happened, linked them through time. As a result, the paradox programmed the Pattern to force the Dark One, whom was touching the world to bring Ishamael back, and also linked them back to the very first fight due to the paradox. In Doctor Who, this would be a bootstrap paradox. Where even the Dark One has to follow what time, or the Pattern, wanted to happen.

 

A bootstrap paradox, by the way in time travel, is able to extend from the very Dawn Of Creation, to Creations very destruction, if a person or recurring event helps maintain history. Particularly if history says that Creation's death occurs at a specific moment and in a specific way, then that allows another Creation to be born to replace it. If it dies to soon, or too late, or occurs another way than intended, then everything ends, and no Creation appears to replace what was there. These threats were all present in the books, so the Pattern is operating and manifesting as a bootstrap with these two souls. With the Dark One and his champion fighting to break the paradox, and the Creator's Champion fighting to maintain it. Because this particular fight is unique, then Moridin and Rand crossing balefire streams made the ever recurring battles happen.

Edited December 7, 2019 by wotfan4472

[Sabio]

The DO needed Ishy, Ishy was the only forsaken the DO could really trust not to screw everything up and who could get the others working on the same page.  Plus out of all the forsaken Ishy had done the most for the shadow.  All the DO needed to do was promise Ishy eternal death to keep him focused on the goal.

 

 

Also one thing to keep in mind is RJ said LTT isn't always good and Ishy isn't always bad.  So quite possibly Ishy might be the lights champion next time.  It would go against the free will thing if a soul was always forced to be good or bad,.

Edited December 7, 2019 by Sabio

[wotfan4472]

It still works with the bootstrap paradox time theory. The fact that we saw a body swap occur backs up that even if LTT went evil in the past Ishy was still used to counter him. The only way this could happen is due to the balefire incident in book seven causing issues that linked them in the very beginning of the fighting. 

If LTT fought for the Shadow in the past, then Ishamael would oppose him, especially if it is like Batman and Joker's connection, but on a far greater scale. 

The Pattern could allow for LTT going evil, as long as the linked soul that is Ishy's faced him as a balance. If the bootstrap paradox affects only Rand and Ishamael/Moridin, and links them in conflict, as they are in the later books, then it does not matter how many times Rand switch sides, as long as Ishamael/Moridin chooses to oppose him.

Everything seems to hinge on choice. The bootstrap paradox in this case seems like it ensures that it is only these two that can make the decisions that directly affect the world around them, but only when it comes to situations related to the Dark One and the Creator. 

 

As for free will, some get more free will than others. Rand's soul would get the most choices, being the Creator' s Champion, while Ishamael's soul would get the lesser choices, and only in response to Rand's. The bootstrap would still exist. The Pattern gets its balance, by using the bootstrap paradox to ensure nothing interferes with the bigger moments, while ignoring the smaller moments. Only these two souls get to affect the bigger ones.

Edited December 7, 2019 by wotfan4472

[Denver Steve]

Great stuff !!

thank you