The Too Young Sitter Conspiracy.

[BrainFireBob]

Because of the Aes Sedai hierarchy, it should in fact be a trivial matter to identify Ajah heads. Women deferred to by women in their own Ajah out of proportion to their standing in the hierarchy would in all probability be the Ajah heads.

[cloglord]

If it were that simple, why aren't sitters sure instead of guessing?

[BrainFireBob]

Because of how insular, moribund, and traditional Aes Sedai culture is: You don't let yourself look due to social opprobrium.

[cloglord]

Either way, it seems that its not easily dicerned. Either, they don't know, because its hard to know or they don't know because they refuse to look, in either case, they don't know.

[Luckers]

I concider it quite likely that the Ajah Heads know each other from prior to the schism; it seems likely that they would have been forced to interact with or react to the actions of their counterparts in the day to day running of the Ajah, especially given the speed with which they were able to find each other in order to employ the Too Young Sitter conspiracy.

 

It almost really requires that they knew prior.

[cloglord]

or it could mean that someone who did know, let them in on the secret. That someone being Cadsuane.

[Elwinn Taron]

But how could Cadsuane know? She's been away from the tower so long most sisters think she is dead. And she turned down being the Captain General for the Green, so she wouldn't know even if the Ajah heads do all know each other.

 

Personally, I think it likely that the other Ajah heads all know each other--but it's a secret that only they know. Otherwise, things that might effect ALL Ajahs would never be discussed except by the sitters and the Amyrlin, and we know how contentious they can be.

[cloglord]

She could know because she has a cadre of sisters, from a number of ajahs, that she has working for her. She also has a habit of ferreting information of of the people around/under her that they don't intend on giving up.

[Elwinn Taron]

I'm pretty sure the head of their Ajah is not something any sister would spill. But you've got a good point....Cadsuane has an arsenal of ter'angreal bobbing around her bun. Moiraine has a simple little gem she wears on her forehead for EAVESDROPPING. Yep, Cadsuane probably finds out anything she wants to by hook or by crook. That's probably why she lets "annoying" sisters hang around for a few days before she gives them the boot, direct questioning, and a lot of listening in....makes sense.

[Luckers]

I still dont think it fits with Cadsuane. Cadsuane is the eternal outsider, she doesn't lead groups, she commands them, and as such she only ever gathers people with very specific skills she might want to use.

 

I just do not see Cadsuane gathering sisters solely for the purpose of leading them.

[cloglord]

Yes but Samitsu, specifically recalls that she has been drawn into Cadsuane's plots before, and that those plots sometimes run very, very, deep.

 

Why can't these varied and myriad plots add up to Cadsuane controlling events for a major portion of the Aes Sedai? We know that she has begun gathering trusted sistere, that she has some measure of control over a great number of them. I mean she calls them, she twists every little secret out of them, she sends them away. She places sisters in charge of large geographical or political situations, IE Samitsu. She is in control. She is so well conected that she knows about 2 dragons in time to help in their capture, she deduced the birth of the DR, she heard about strange events in Shienar, etc., etc.

She might not have 333 sisters hiding out in her closet, but she's moving things, in a very signifigant way. Even Egwene acknowledges that there is more than one way to lead the Aes Sedai with her constant comparisons between herself and past Amyrlins. I don't remember the names of the 2 most succesful Amrylins, but one ruled by force, the other by skillfull plotting. If its good enough for them, why not the oldest, wisest, and most succesful Aes Sedai alive?

[Luckers]

Because its just not her way. Cadsuane is a loner and an outsider who draws sister in when she needs them, and only for the purpose she needs them for. Simply taking charge of Aes Sedai does not fit her.

[Dbob]

So, I’m just going back to reread the parts of the later books that I skimmed – was pretty much thoroughly fed up with Egwene/Elayne/Nynaeve POV’s by book 7; and I missed this whole thing more or less. It got buried under all that discussion of clothes, and the just why can’t he do what I say and take the blame for my stupidity, blah blah blah, ad nauseum, that they were spewing all over the place.

 

So, being fond of a good conspiracy, I thought I’d go take a look. Though I have to admit, so far the references to this one are pretty elusive – and quite frankly Luckers if you made me wade through Egwene and the rest of the ditzy High School Cheeleaders, I won’t be kindly disposed.

 

The question is this, Just how exactly do the conspirators plan to reunite the two halls? One pre-Elaida Sitter, one young one from the rebels, one young one from the Tower? Toss the young ones in favor of new older sitters? Or did you mean something else entirely? I admit the details of how and why the conspiracy should necessarily require young sitters as opposed to any old sitters are a little hazy.

 

Why do they need to be young? Easy to depose and replace – as a bargaining point? As a sacrifice? Or are they meant to be easily led by the Ajah heads? Is this some kind of “New Blood” thing? Is this just a plot device to allow Siuan to notice in the first place?

[Guest Cadsuane]

I believe the idea is that when the towers are reunited, having the replacement sitters be so young leaves it clearly open for the original sitters to take over their old places. If the replacement sitters were equally old (read "experienced and up high enough in the AS food chain"), it would be more ambiguous as to which of the sitters would take the positions in the reunited Hall. With the younguns, it makes the transition smoother since it is clear who takes precedence.

[Dbob]

Well that kind of brings up another thing, if the Ajah Heads are running this conspiracy, wouldn’t they need to be conspiring with all the Pre-Elaida Sitters as well? Some of whom – not just the Red, are firmly in the Elaida camp. I don’t see them wanting to keep Sitters who were involved in the coup that deposed Siuan. Or is this covered somewhere that I just haven’t found yet? How well would the two groups get along? I can’t see them working together just letting bygones be bygones. That would of course be a boon for Egwene, but not for the power of the hall.

 

I suppose they wouldn’t necessarily have to bring in the others, but that would help their conspiracy along, at least with the Sitters from the rebel group. I can’t see the Pre-Elaida sitters still in the Tower hall, needing to have anything to do with this unless they changed their minds about Elaida – which is certainly a possibility.

[cloudcrono]

Ok going back to all the ajah heads know each other thingy I need to double check the books but I believe it's made clear that one of the Ajah heads is black ajah. If that were the case wouldn't the black ajah know all of the other heads? I remember Alvarin not knowing all of the heads. Am I mistaken?

[cloglord]

CloudChrono

 

You are mistaken, Alviarin does in fact know the identities of all of the ajah heads, she thinks to herspelf in one of her POV's that it is required of the BA sisters to cough up all the ajah secrets.

 

Galina Casban, is the Red Ajah Head that you are thinking of, we know for a fact that none of the ajah heads in the tower is BA, as Alviarin seems clueless as to why they are meeting. She does however use the plural form when thinking about the BA Sitters that she has ordered to look into this mystery, suggesting that there is at least one more BA sitter besides Talene in the Tower hall.

[Luckers]

Dbob, the original (and ongoing) intention of the Ajah Heads plans was the peaceful reintergration of the Tower under Elaida; not because they like Elaida, but because they are acting under the wide-spread Aes Sedai position that the Tower must be whole in the face of whats coming.

 

Even following Egwene's capture they seemingly seek reunification under Elaida, but that being said i doubt that will hold for long. Adelorna at the very least seems to have changed her position reguarding Egwene, and in the end, whilst their original plans wont be successful the things they brought about will play a roll in allowing the two halls to come together under Egwene. Accidental, yet nonetheless effective.

[cloglord]

I had a thought, that might not be all that earthshaking, but I think its pertinent all the same.

 

Cadsuane is the strongest Aes Sedai. Given the Aes Sedai hierarchy of sisters defering or even outright obeying other sisters based on strength, Cadsuane could give an order, that she could reasonably expect to be obeyed, to 75% of sisters. If you look into it even further, you find that the only exceptions to this hierarchy of strength is for the Amrylin, keeper, the sister's ajah head (in some ajahs,) and Sitters.

 

If we assume that the 1/3rd of the sisters that are sitting aside from the troubles in the tower, don't recognize the authority of either Amrylin, either keeper, or either hall, then by default, Cadsuane would be the uncontested boss of any of these sisters that she runs across. Most of them would naturally follow her lead, and the rest would defer to her. Cadsuane doesn't need to have sought out a position of direct leadership, she already has it. We know she's gathering sisters, and we also know that she can expect obedience from any unafiliated sisters that she encounters. She is next in the chain of command, whether she wants to be or not.

[GrandpaG]

I had a thought, that might not be all that earthshaking, but I think its pertinent all the same.

 

Cadsuane is the strongest Aes Sedai.  Given the Aes Sedai hierarchy of sisters defering or even outright obeying other sisters based on strength, Cadsuane could give an order, that she could reasonably expect to be obeyed, to 75% of sisters.  If you look into it even further, you find that the only exceptions to this hierarchy of strength is for the Amrylin, keeper, the sister's ajah head (in some ajahs,) and Sitters.

 

If we assume that the 1/3rd of the sisters that are sitting aside from the troubles in the tower, don't recognize the authority of either Amrylin, either keeper, or either hall, then by default, Cadsuane would be the uncontested boss of any of these sisters that she runs across.  Most of them would naturally follow her lead, and the rest would defer to her.  Cadsuane doesn't need to have sought out a position of direct leadership, she already has it.  We know she's gathering sisters, and we also know that she can expect obedience from any unafiliated sisters that she encounters.  She is next in the chain of command, whether she wants to be or not.

 

And she is a skillful person, not to mention a "ghost".  She knows what her plans are and she WILL see them completed.  I still don't know why she insists that she has been growing roses in her spare time.

[RobertAlexWillis]

Yes, Cadsuane could (and seemingly does) freely give orders to pretty much any Aes Sedai she happens across, and the Aes Sedai Hierarchy-For-Idiots system virtually insures that, if they are not Black Ajah or on assignment from the Amyrlin they recognize, they'll do whatever she says.

 

That is far different from organizing them into a coherent "Third Faction", or making them "Cadsuane's Sisters".  Her relationship with those free floating sisters is not any different now than it was before the schism.  She could have given them orders then; she can give them orders now.  In order for it to be different, she would have had to create some form of organization, like the Hall, to control them, and there is zero indication that such is the case.

 

Cadsuane will almost certainly support Egwene if either (or both) of the following happen:

 

1. They meet.

 

2. The Salidar and Tower factions unite under Egwene.

 

Cadsuane's support (assuming she stays alive long enough to give it ... I personally think she's gonna eat it relatively early in AMoL) would certainly help solidify Egwene's position among the "independent" sisters, but I don't believe it will be crucial.  Cadsuane's opposition would be more damaging, but I don't think that's going to happen.  Cadsuane is too focused on Rand, and she'll easily recognize the value of having someone that Rand at least marginally trusts as Amyrlin, assuming the woman is not a total incompetent.  One meeting, or a recounting of Egwene's current campaign in the Tower should easily convince Cadsuane that Egwene is far more than marginally competent.

 

 

[cloglord]

[quoteThat is far different from organizing them into a coherent "Third Faction", or making them "Cadsuane's Sisters".  Her relationship with those free floating sisters is not any different now than it was before the schism.  She could have given them orders then; she can give them orders now.  In order for it to be different, she would have had to create some form of organization, like the Hall, to control them, and there is zero indication that such is the case.

 

There is more than zero indication of this.  SHe has been actively gathering sisters for some time, not giving orders to random sisters who cross her path.  She also leaves sisters behind in charge of other sisters, a clear indication of a hierarchy.  Samitsu should defer to Sashalle, yet resists because of Cadsuane's orders.

 

[lou]

it is not just ajah heads meeting in secrecy. these are ajahs who have seemingly been pitted against each other on particular orders that elaida (alvi) have sent down to put a wedge between the ajahs. in public, these ajahs are at each others throats, but are having private tea parties together. seems like a mutiny could be brewing.

[RobertAlexWillis]

She also leaves sisters behind in charge of other sisters, a clear indication of a hierarchy.  Samitsu should defer to Sashalle, yet resists because of Cadsuane's orders.

 

All of which would have played out exactly the same before the Tower split.  Its a function of the normal Aes Sedai hierarchy, not a new group that Cadsuane is "gathering".

 

SHe has been actively gathering sisters for some time, not giving orders to random sisters who cross her path.

 

I'm sorry ... how many was that again?  15, maybe 20 that we've seen?  And they were just the ones she happened across, she was not out "actively gathering".  She has not created a new hierarchy.  She's just operating under the normal, old rules for Aes Sedai outside the Tower.  That just happens to put her in charge of pretty much any Sister she meets.  But that is different than forming a "Third Faction".

[cloglord]

From The COT Prolouge

 

This was not the first time she had been pulled into one of the legendary Green's designs.  Cadsuane could be more devious than a Blue, schemes inside plots wrapped in strategems and all hidden behind still others.  Some were planned to fail in order to help others succeed, and only Cadsuane knew which were which.

 

Cadsuane is not directing random sisters in the execution of short term plans.  She is devious and scheming.

 

From WH CH. 13

 

She had begun gathering sisters she trusted, those here with her and others, the day she first heard of strange events in Shienar...

 

Yes, there are around ten at her Carhienen locatiion, but there are an unspecified number of sisters that she has gathered and sent elsewhere.  She has been gathering these sisters for the better part of two years.

 

From WH Ch 23  Sarene tells Harine

 

When Cadsuane orders we must obey...

 

When Cadsuane gives an order it must be obeyed.

 

To recap, Cadsuane is a master manipulator who is directly controlling an undetermined number of sisters, (more than 20 at least,) that she has been gathering for the last 2 years.  I'd say that none of the afore mentioned theories are out of the realm of possibility.