When does spring start?

[Leyrann]

32 minutes ago, Mrs. Cindy Gill said:

Spring starts 3/21 or 3/22, at vernal equinox. I don't understand the new trend to try to make it 3/1 when it's still prime winter most everywhere that has winter. We're waiting for a ton of snow tomorrow.

 

favorite thing is when that snow stops, which could be as late as May. 

 

 

 

Astronomers say 21/3 or 22/3, meteorologists say 1/3. Considering astronomical events only indirectly deal with weather, while meteorological events quite literally are weather, I would say it's best to follow the meteorologists in this.

 

Also early december is colder than early march.

Edited March 1, 2018 by Leyrann

[Mrs. Cindy Gill]

Not here. As the days get longer the cold gets stronger. Our worst storms are in early March, and sometimes straight through early or even late May. Also meteorologists have a 2 year degree at best so I take their opinions with a whole shaker of salt.

 

um... since we lost the ability to easily click next to the thread to see who posted I think they don't want us spamming Roll call so I stop now. 

 

But spring is at equinox, whatever a few oddball years of weather say.

[Leyrann]

There we go, threads split, now we can freely discuss it. :)

 

So. Meteorologists may have a 2 year degree (do they?), but that's still 2 years more than anyone else working has spent learning about the climate. They're still the experts in their field.

 

Equinox, on the other hand, has no direct relationship with seasons. It is only related in such a way, that seasons are caused by which side of the earth faces the sun more. It is no more than logical that the seasons do not properly align with the equinoxes, and in fact they don't, because if they did, spring for example would be February, March and April, as those are the months directly around the equinox. Instead, there's a delay, and considering that delay is clearly too big to be ignored (we're talking about 1 vs 1.5 months delay here, not delay vs no delay or something), why would we plug together equinox and  season, instead of looking at what is actually the most like a season.

 

Oh, and another major reason to consider March 1st the start of spring: Farmers will typically start planting again at or around March 1st.

[Mrs. Cindy Gill]

They may start planting on 3/1 where you are, and it may get warm where you are, but they start planting most crops Memorial Day here, last weekend in May, and we have freezes frequently right through that week.

 

weather differs from location to location, so weather is no basis to demarcate the seasons.

 

this is a new, arbitrary thing that's been changed for no particular reason.

 

spring starts at the vernal equinox. There's nothing to debate. You can change the definition of spring if you want, and maybe future generations will latch onto that, but I'm not coming with.

Edited March 1, 2018 by Mrs. Cindy Gill

[Ithillian Turambar]

Yup. Equinox.

 

Today we have snowdrifts burying cars. It's still very much winter.

[Leyrann]

Well, it depends on what you're planting of course. We also have freezes all the way until May on ocassion.

 

But I'm just saying, both systems are arbitrary, but one is defined by those who study the weather as their job and one is not, so I'm going with the first of those.

 

1 hour ago, Mrs. Cindy Gill said:

spring starts at the vernal equinox. There's nothing to debate.

 

I very much disagree with this however. The debate is about whether or not it starts at that point, so this is just circular reasoning.

[Leyrann]

Apologies if I'm being too blunt in my posts about this, by the way. I've started taking discussions more seriously since joining the Brandon Sanderson forum. I'm just continuing the discussion because I like discussing things (and mostly convincing others ).

[Mrs. Cindy Gill]

1 hour ago, Ithillian Turambar said:

Yup. Equinox.

 

Today we have snowdrifts burying cars. It's still very much winter.

We're expecting snomageddon tomorrow, yup.

[Mrs. Cindy Gill]

1 hour ago, Leyrann said:

Apologies if I'm being too blunt in my posts about this, by the way. I've started taking discussions more seriously since joining the Brandon Sanderson forum. I'm just continuing the discussion because I like discussing things (and mostly convincing others ).

You won't be convincing me to adopt nonsense meteorological fad and fashion, sorry. Especially with the climate all over the place anymore. What are the weathermen gonna do, change the seasons every year?

 

yes, winter crops can be planted all winter and into early spring. Most crops require 55 degree soil temp, but that's still no nevermind to the vernal equinox.

 

and quit changing the math while you're at it. Damn kids.

 

lol the constant redefinition of everything you know is going to particularly annoy you in your future. I can tell.

[Mrs. Cindy Gill]

So totally not what I meant to quote...

 

stupid new DM.

 

be as blunt as you like, but not every discussion needs to be a debate, ya? Have your happy spring party. I'm getting ready for a blizzard here in winterland.

[Ithillian Turambar]

This is my village.

 

Edited March 3, 2018 by Ithillian Turambar

[Mrs. Cindy Gill]

Beautiful winter day!

 

We got a ton of snow yesterday too and another storm due Tuesday. Huzzah.

 

 

 

 

[Turin Turambar]

The seasons are directly related to the solstice/equinox events. The weather may not be exactly relatable to the seasons. 

 

Winter solstice: shortest day of year

Spring equinox: day/night equal

Summer solstice: longest day of year

Autumn equinox: day/night equal

 

The new season starts at each event. Period. 

 

This is true no matter where you live, even Australia. Their seasons are inverted from ours so I can guarantee that Spring doesn't start on March 1st there. But it will start on their spring equinox. 

[Mrs. Cindy Gill]

Yup. Exactly this.

 

waiting for our next blizzard before the equinox as it happens.  They may stop for a few months afterward. They may not

Edited March 6, 2018 by Mrs. Cindy Gill

[Leyrann]

18 hours ago, Turin Turambar said:

The seasons are directly related to the solstice/equinox events. The weather may not be exactly relatable to the seasons. 

 

Winter solstice: shortest day of year

Spring equinox: day/night equal

Summer solstice: longest day of year

Autumn equinox: day/night equal

 

The new season starts at each event. Period. 

 

This is true no matter where you live, even Australia. Their seasons are inverted from ours so I can guarantee that Spring doesn't start on March 1st there. But it will start on their spring equinox. 

 

So seasons aren't related to weather? Because I thought that was kind of the point of seasons...

[Mrs. Cindy Gill]

No, it's not.

[Turin Turambar]

Weather is variable based on many many things. The seasons are constant based on the relative positions of the earth and sun as a result of earth orbit. 

 

Having lived in several different places on this earth I can confirm for you that the individual local weather is not the same at a certain time of year. In March (or any other time of year) the weather will be quite different in Southern California than from Yorkshire UK or from Florida in the USA or from New York/Pennsylvania or from Chicago area.  If you used the weather to determine seasons then different places would have seasons of different length and start/stop times.

 

It just wouldn't work.

[Leyrann]

What about the dry season/wet season that is used for places that don't have our 'normal' seasons though?

[Mrs. Cindy Gill]

You're kind of making the point that spring isn't about the weather ya?

[Leyrann]

I'm making the point that seasons are used to describe the weather, and in areas where the weather can't be described in winter, spring, summer, autumn, the terms aren't used.

[Mrs. Cindy Gill]

Even in those places the equinox and solstices are understood and observed.

[Leyrann]

By the way, official definition by meteorologists is warmest three months are summer, coldest three months are winter, and in between spring and autumn. In most areas, that means spring starts March 1st.

[Leyrann]

Just now, Mrs. Cindy Gill said:

Even in those places the equinox and solstices are understood and observed.

 

And yet we never talk about seasons in the Sahara, except dry and wet season.

[Mrs. Cindy Gill]

I don't actually care what weathermen think except as far as the next weather event.

[Mrs. Cindy Gill]

You're confusing season with weather with climate.

 

also, seasons in the dessert:

 

https://seasonsyear.com/North-Africa

 

regardless of weather or climate, the solstices and equinoxes are understood and observed. The spring and fall equinoxes, the summer and winter solstices. You may need an umbrella, it's irrelevant to the events or the seasons. Unless you're a weatherman and not really talking about season but about weather.