The Mafia Parable: Basic Game OVER

[BFG]

Going into my final in ten minutes, won't be back for two hours. Good luck everyone.

Good luck!

[Gentled Ben]

 

 

Reads & Reasons Why Players Might be Scum

by

Me

 

...

 

1. Verbal32 - Found it odd he didn't vote D1. Very unhelpful in terms of creating a record to stand on.

2. Ironeyes - Didn't love his reversal on Rand.

 

3. DreadPirateRoberts - Towniest Townie that ever Towned. 

 

4. Clovdyx - Made some good points so far. 

 

5. Gentled Ben - Playing the newbie card up a more than I'd like to see. Terrible instincts?

 

6. LedZepMan - Town Vanilla

 

7. Shitsure Kamimashita - Started game as an active solver. Slowly faded into background after the fingers started pointing.

 

8. Adella - Town 1x Vigilante

 

9. Nynaeve - Felt okay about her until last night. But, her unnecessary personal attacks and lack of game solving points looks bad.

 

10. Sooh - Hasn't really struck me one way or another. She has been open about not enjoying playing as scum before, but she was more stressed about it then. Null.

 

11. Hallia - Town Vanilla

 

12. RandA lThor - Strongest scum read. I don't buy anything he's selling. I've made mutltiple points, and as those are stacking up. Along with yesterday's points, his fit at EoD felt contrived, as did his profanity "slip" and faux outrage. His logic regarding scum skipping the NK is just a disaster. 

 

[v] Rand [/v]

 

 

Aight lets do this for fun.  Besides it being suspicious that I didn't remember how the CoC worked and that I have a problem with unconsciously swearing, what other "multiple points" do you have against me?  I see that you said fit at EoD and faux outrage (though I'm assuming the second is connected to the swearing thing), but what fit at EoD are you talking about?  And my logic regarding scum skipping the NK is a disaster, yet you took 0 time to even argue against it?  Why wouldn't scum skip their NK?

 

 

 

Here ya go pumpkin:

 

1. You joined this PG-13 site when you were about 13, right? And stayed and played mafia for several years, right? Been my experience that everyone is aware of the PG-13 rule - it gets highlighted at least once per game and DM is somewhat unique (at least on the boards I've been on) with that rule. 

 

But you "forgot" it.

 

Okay. 

 

Magically, you have an amazing memory concerning player's habits. That means you forgot DM had a language code, but you remembered smallish details about Verbal and others. 

 

Okay...

 

But then you push it with swearing again on thread, because once again, you just keep forgetting that darn PG-13 rule? And you call it "unconscious swearing", which implies that this happens frequently? It's not game related per say, but I am curious, do you "unconsciously swear" often? Like, in a thesis paper... "The Impact of The F***ing Visigoths During the F***ing Migration Period by Rand F***ing AlThor". Or is it more casual? "Dear Mom & Dad, having a great f***ing time at school! Love, Rand"

 

Thing is, swears convey emotional attachment. That's why people use them. And by conveying emotional attachment in this game, you accomplish a couple of things: you create an air of believability and earnestness and you also to raise the stakes in attacks on your points - kind of like "you don't want to go there with me".

 

These make excellent places for scum to hide. That's what I think you're probably doing. Or, alternatively, we've discovered that you have Tourretet's Syndrome and now you can begin recovery, saving you years of embarrassment on job applications and rsvp's. Win-win.

 

2. And that's where the faux outrage and rahrahrah observations feed in. You notice how you're the only one talking about being around at DL? It's because it's not realistic for everyone to be there, so they just vote. Everybody knows this, so you making a big deal out of people not being around and trying to rally at the end is very likely an attempt to appear super duper townish.

 

You like to use emotion to influence people's opinion of you. It's a decent technique - it's effective as long as nobody pokes holes in the logic of it.

 

So far I've pointed out the possibility that you're using this technique. Your responses to my suss lead me to believe I'm right because a player that wasn't doing it would respond with "whatevs" and not worry about it. You flinched. 

 

3. As for your logic disastrophe, there is no scenario where scum skips their NK on N1. It's a time-bomb setup... they have to knock off as many townies as possible as soon as possible to win. 

 

Anyone looking for a creative way for scum to skip a NK is most likely scum - nobody else would have reason to think like that. 

 

That's why I took 0 time to talk about, and neither did anyone else. 

 

We good now?

 

1. To me, this starts out as a valid point. I mean, if you grew up on this site, then one of the most basic rules should be pretty solidly ingrained in you, and not dropping F bombs is a pretty solid rule around here. However, people do forget things (hence the common phrase, "I don't remember"), sometimes important things ("What is the combination to this padlock?") while remembering trivial things (I bought this padlock for $3.99. Now if I could only open it..."). That's not "magical;" it's how memory works--yours, mine, and his. You cling to his question of the profanity ban here, this thin little reed, throughout D1, but when he pops in and drops an F bomb, you blow right past it because you aren't really invested in the belief that his faulty memory is a scum tell; you've just chosen him out as your mislynch and used that as an early and easy scum tell to justify a vote for the day, but it actually takes posts from other people (Adella? I don't remember who brought it up) to point out to you that he had dropped an F bomb and that it's inconsistent of you not to pounce on that as further evidence of your theory that he's scum. Now, however, you take that F bomb up and make this elaborate-yet-flimsy construct out of it that involves complicated emotional manipulation of others in response to his own complicated emotional investment as revealed by the clever tell that only you could see, rather than the obvious explanation that a lot of people cuss all the time with not emotional attachment to it at all. It's called a "potty mouth," and he indicated at the start that he has developed one since last posting here, and so he wanted to be certain that he could not, in fact, indulge his tendency towards profanity on this board. Of course he doesn't write about the "F****** Visigoths" in his term paper. Neither do you, but I bet you let some words slip by in more relaxed contexts, like playing a game on a forum, but that won't help you lynch somebody, so you conveniently ignore it. You have focused on him like a laser beam from what? His very first post? And you haven't really dug at anyone else or responded until now to any requests to explain your obssession with him.

 

3. Or it could be worth discussing, just like Verbal's suggestion that the vigs reveal themselves, even if it's not a good idea. Honestly, I saw merit to both sides of both arguments, and talking things out is the only way we're going to find the wolves, because eventually they will trip themselves up. Or maybe, they'll do it right out of the starting gate by building some bizarre construct out of a thin reed.

[Gentled Ben]

 

 

 

 

Reads & Reasons Why Players Might be Scum

by

Me

 

...

 

1. Verbal32 - Found it odd he didn't vote D1. Very unhelpful in terms of creating a record to stand on.

2. Ironeyes - Didn't love his reversal on Rand.

 

3. DreadPirateRoberts - Towniest Townie that ever Towned. 

 

4. Clovdyx - Made some good points so far. 

 

5. Gentled Ben - Playing the newbie card up a more than I'd like to see. Terrible instincts?

 

6. LedZepMan - Town Vanilla

 

7. Shitsure Kamimashita - Started game as an active solver. Slowly faded into background after the fingers started pointing.

 

8. Adella - Town 1x Vigilante

 

9. Nynaeve - Felt okay about her until last night. But, her unnecessary personal attacks and lack of game solving points looks bad.

 

10. Sooh - Hasn't really struck me one way or another. She has been open about not enjoying playing as scum before, but she was more stressed about it then. Null.

 

11. Hallia - Town Vanilla

 

12. RandA lThor - Strongest scum read. I don't buy anything he's selling. I've made mutltiple points, and as those are stacking up. Along with yesterday's points, his fit at EoD felt contrived, as did his profanity "slip" and faux outrage. His logic regarding scum skipping the NK is just a disaster. 

 

[v] Rand [/v]

 

 

Aight lets do this for fun.  Besides it being suspicious that I didn't remember how the CoC worked and that I have a problem with unconsciously swearing, what other "multiple points" do you have against me?  I see that you said fit at EoD and faux outrage (though I'm assuming the second is connected to the swearing thing), but what fit at EoD are you talking about?  And my logic regarding scum skipping the NK is a disaster, yet you took 0 time to even argue against it?  Why wouldn't scum skip their NK?

 

 

 

Here ya go pumpkin:

 

1. You joined this PG-13 site when you were about 13, right? And stayed and played mafia for several years, right? Been my experience that everyone is aware of the PG-13 rule - it gets highlighted at least once per game and DM is somewhat unique (at least on the boards I've been on) with that rule. 

 

But you "forgot" it.

 

Okay. 

 

Magically, you have an amazing memory concerning player's habits. That means you forgot DM had a language code, but you remembered smallish details about Verbal and others. 

 

Okay...

 

But then you push it with swearing again on thread, because once again, you just keep forgetting that darn PG-13 rule? And you call it "unconscious swearing", which implies that this happens frequently? It's not game related per say, but I am curious, do you "unconsciously swear" often? Like, in a thesis paper... "The Impact of The F***ing Visigoths During the F***ing Migration Period by Rand F***ing AlThor". Or is it more casual? "Dear Mom & Dad, having a great f***ing time at school! Love, Rand"

 

Thing is, swears convey emotional attachment. That's why people use them. And by conveying emotional attachment in this game, you accomplish a couple of things: you create an air of believability and earnestness and you also to raise the stakes in attacks on your points - kind of like "you don't want to go there with me".

 

These make excellent places for scum to hide. That's what I think you're probably doing. Or, alternatively, we've discovered that you have Tourretet's Syndrome and now you can begin recovery, saving you years of embarrassment on job applications and rsvp's. Win-win.

 

2. And that's where the faux outrage and rahrahrah observations feed in. You notice how you're the only one talking about being around at DL? It's because it's not realistic for everyone to be there, so they just vote. Everybody knows this, so you making a big deal out of people not being around and trying to rally at the end is very likely an attempt to appear super duper townish.

 

You like to use emotion to influence people's opinion of you. It's a decent technique - it's effective as long as nobody pokes holes in the logic of it.

 

So far I've pointed out the possibility that you're using this technique. Your responses to my suss lead me to believe I'm right because a player that wasn't doing it would respond with "whatevs" and not worry about it. You flinched. 

 

3. As for your logic disastrophe, there is no scenario where scum skips their NK on N1. It's a time-bomb setup... they have to knock off as many townies as possible as soon as possible to win. 

 

Anyone looking for a creative way for scum to skip a NK is most likely scum - nobody else would have reason to think like that. 

 

That's why I took 0 time to talk about, and neither did anyone else. 

 

We good now?

 

 

This is a much more fleshed out and formulated argument, thanks

 

1. I've definitely changed a lot since I played here, and one of those ways is that I swear a lot more than when I was here.  And like I have to keep saying over and over again, **I did not forget the rule**, I just forgot how strictly it was enforced and what was OK and not OK.  Also, its much easier to remember someone's personality than change the way that I've been talking for a few years.  No lol, I don't have Tourrette's, but I've also accidentally sworn at family reunions, and uncountable times in front of my parents, fwiw.  It's become part of my casual vocabulary which I don't think is some incredible thing, its fairly common to slip up.  I see what you're saying with the whole "air of believability thing" but that argument doesn't really make sense when you think about it more.  Both town and scum have "earnest" moments in the game where they're trying incredibly hard to do something and will seem very determined.  The opposite is true where both scum and town can seem lazy or uninterested.  Its more of a null tell than a way to separate scum/town.

 

2. When I mentioned my DL thing, there were also others who agreed with me, so its not like it was just me.  And also, like I mentioned before, the thing wasn't just being around at DL.  LZM wasn't around and I was fine with that.  He also mentioned that he wouldn't be there at DL, which allowed us to keep that in mind and act upon that.  Obviously you can't always be around whenever DL is, but its not hard at all to let us know that since we know when DL is 48 hours in advance.  At worst, emergencies will come up and that's fine, but that didn't happen to you.  Otherwise, scum can be "around" at DL, but not post so they don't have to contribute to town trains like the Hally one, and look better.

 

3. This is the worst of your 3 points by far, and an incredibly shallow perspective from someone I remember making some incredibly complex setups and crazy mafia games and its pinging me hard.  I've already explained how by no killing, scum would have a higher expected townies dead till next free day than if they killed.  In simpler terms, they wouldn't need to shoot Adella because town would lynch Adella for them, and then they could use the kill the night after.  So same number of night kills in that period, but they were able to waste a whole day for town and get an extra dead townie.

 

 

Okay, forget 1 & 2 for now...

 

Explain again how scum skipping a NK equals the "same number of night kills in that period". Hold my hand like I'm a small child and walk me through this?

 

"Okay, you're right; those are flimsy reeds, but this other one, it's not as flimsy!"

[BFG]

 

Holy crap, I was expecting like ten pages of stuff to catch up on when I got back, but then there's this... I'm pretty sure the deadline is in like two hours, which is when I'll be taking a final. So I'll [v]Sooh[/v]. I said she'd have a chance to convince me my initial read was wrong, but this isn't a convincing action. 

 

 

 

@Ironeyes sure, but reasons were already given to why Hallia was scum you were piling on more reasons. One such reason was: if she flips town it's still good for town is not compelling it doesn't make much sense to me. I am paraphrasing of course it was more along the lines of if hallia is lynched we get to know nyn alignment, so what is nyns alignment Ironeyes? To me it looks like setting up mislynches. #foundscum

[v] Ironeyes [/v]

How much experience do you have playing this game? I ask because this is the kind of post I expect from someone with three games or less under their belt. You are misrepresenting what I said: I never claimed we would "know" Nyn's alignment. I said I would lean a certain way based on the flip. Therefore, my read on Nyn became closer to scum because Hallia was town. It would have gone the opposite way if Hallia had been scum. 

 

Also. I don't set up mislynches as scum. Ask anyone who's ever played with me. Or look in my sig for a summary of my meta, courtesy of Chris. I'm more interested in self-preservation as scum and will try to be everyone's friend. Going out on a limb to say something I know people aren't going to like is more in line with my town game. 

 

 

 

Marsh (think it was you ) when you voted hallia you said you've seen her tune out as scum before, how much experience do you have with town/mafia Hallia?

I've played at least two games with her as each in the last year or so. Unfortunately my memory for game titles is awful so I'd have to do some research to tell you which ones.

 

What differences would you expect from a town/scum Hallia?

 

I'll check your original point in a minute, but Hallia has been low activity regardless of role or alignment in every game I'm aware of in the last 9 months or so. She was active (as town and mafia) last Summer, so I don't think activity has ever been a way to judge her alignment

[Gentled Ben]

On other fronts, Sooh is acting like a lurking wolf who soft claims vig to stay alive, so I can see lynching her.

[BFG]

Please remember folks, post trimming saves lives <3

[DPR]

1. To me, this starts out as a valid point. I mean, if you grew up on this site, then one of the most basic rules should be pretty solidly ingrained in you, and not dropping F bombs is a pretty solid rule around here. However, people do forget things (hence the common phrase, "I don't remember"), sometimes important things ("What is the combination to this padlock?") while remembering trivial things (I bought this padlock for $3.99. Now if I could only open it..."). That's not "magical;" it's how memory works--yours, mine, and his. You cling to his question of the profanity ban here, this thin little reed, throughout D1, but when he pops in and drops an F bomb, you blow right past it because you aren't really invested in the belief that his faulty memory is a scum tell; you've just chosen him out as your mislynch and used that as an early and easy scum tell to justify a vote for the day, but it actually takes posts from other people (Adella? I don't remember who brought it up) to point out to you that he had dropped an F bomb and that it's inconsistent of you not to pounce on that as further evidence of your theory that he's scum. Now, however, you take that F bomb up and make this elaborate-yet-flimsy construct out of it that involves complicated emotional manipulation of others in response to his own complicated emotional investment as revealed by the clever tell that only you could see, rather than the obvious explanation that a lot of people cuss all the time with not emotional attachment to it at all. It's called a "potty mouth," and he indicated at the start that he has developed one since last posting here, and so he wanted to be certain that he could not, in fact, indulge his tendency towards profanity on this board. Of course he doesn't write about the "F****** Visigoths" in his term paper. Neither do you, but I bet you let some words slip by in more relaxed contexts, like playing a game on a forum, but that won't help you lynch somebody, so you conveniently ignore it. You have focused on him like a laser beam from what? His very first post? And you haven't really dug at anyone else or responded until now to any requests to explain your obssession with him.

 

 

3. Or it could be worth discussing, just like Verbal's suggestion that the vigs reveal themselves, even if it's not a good idea. Honestly, I saw merit to both sides of both arguments, and talking things out is the only way we're going to find the wolves, because eventually they will trip themselves up. Or maybe, they'll do it right out of the starting gate by building some bizarre construct out of a thin reed.

 

 

 

I trimmed the original - it's a few posts above if anyone needs it. 

 

So, Ben, you're just wrong. 

 

You didn't read what I wrote. You didn't read what Adella wrote, or how I responded to it ( proving your point to be mistaken ) and you've missed my points on Rand entirely. I haven't "laser focused" on Rand, I've answered questions when they come up. I've begun to put a profile together on everybody. 

 

You're either emotionally involved and can't see the forest for the trees - which is exactly what I've pointed out as a technique that Rand is using... just saying' - or you are ham-fisting a cover for a scum mate. I tend to think it's the former unless you have some really, really bad mates. 

[DPR]

 

 

 

 

 

Reads & Reasons Why Players Might be Scum

by

Me

 

...

 

1. Verbal32 - Found it odd he didn't vote D1. Very unhelpful in terms of creating a record to stand on.

2. Ironeyes - Didn't love his reversal on Rand.

 

3. DreadPirateRoberts - Towniest Townie that ever Towned. 

 

4. Clovdyx - Made some good points so far. 

 

5. Gentled Ben - Playing the newbie card up a more than I'd like to see. Terrible instincts?

 

6. LedZepMan - Town Vanilla

 

7. Shitsure Kamimashita - Started game as an active solver. Slowly faded into background after the fingers started pointing.

 

8. Adella - Town 1x Vigilante

 

9. Nynaeve - Felt okay about her until last night. But, her unnecessary personal attacks and lack of game solving points looks bad.

 

10. Sooh - Hasn't really struck me one way or another. She has been open about not enjoying playing as scum before, but she was more stressed about it then. Null.

 

11. Hallia - Town Vanilla

 

12. RandA lThor - Strongest scum read. I don't buy anything he's selling. I've made mutltiple points, and as those are stacking up. Along with yesterday's points, his fit at EoD felt contrived, as did his profanity "slip" and faux outrage. His logic regarding scum skipping the NK is just a disaster. 

 

[v] Rand [/v]

 

 

Aight lets do this for fun.  Besides it being suspicious that I didn't remember how the CoC worked and that I have a problem with unconsciously swearing, what other "multiple points" do you have against me?  I see that you said fit at EoD and faux outrage (though I'm assuming the second is connected to the swearing thing), but what fit at EoD are you talking about?  And my logic regarding scum skipping the NK is a disaster, yet you took 0 time to even argue against it?  Why wouldn't scum skip their NK?

 

 

 

Here ya go pumpkin:

 

1. You joined this PG-13 site when you were about 13, right? And stayed and played mafia for several years, right? Been my experience that everyone is aware of the PG-13 rule - it gets highlighted at least once per game and DM is somewhat unique (at least on the boards I've been on) with that rule. 

 

But you "forgot" it.

 

Okay. 

 

Magically, you have an amazing memory concerning player's habits. That means you forgot DM had a language code, but you remembered smallish details about Verbal and others. 

 

Okay...

 

But then you push it with swearing again on thread, because once again, you just keep forgetting that darn PG-13 rule? And you call it "unconscious swearing", which implies that this happens frequently? It's not game related per say, but I am curious, do you "unconsciously swear" often? Like, in a thesis paper... "The Impact of The F***ing Visigoths During the F***ing Migration Period by Rand F***ing AlThor". Or is it more casual? "Dear Mom & Dad, having a great f***ing time at school! Love, Rand"

 

Thing is, swears convey emotional attachment. That's why people use them. And by conveying emotional attachment in this game, you accomplish a couple of things: you create an air of believability and earnestness and you also to raise the stakes in attacks on your points - kind of like "you don't want to go there with me".

 

These make excellent places for scum to hide. That's what I think you're probably doing. Or, alternatively, we've discovered that you have Tourretet's Syndrome and now you can begin recovery, saving you years of embarrassment on job applications and rsvp's. Win-win.

 

2. And that's where the faux outrage and rahrahrah observations feed in. You notice how you're the only one talking about being around at DL? It's because it's not realistic for everyone to be there, so they just vote. Everybody knows this, so you making a big deal out of people not being around and trying to rally at the end is very likely an attempt to appear super duper townish.

 

You like to use emotion to influence people's opinion of you. It's a decent technique - it's effective as long as nobody pokes holes in the logic of it.

 

So far I've pointed out the possibility that you're using this technique. Your responses to my suss lead me to believe I'm right because a player that wasn't doing it would respond with "whatevs" and not worry about it. You flinched. 

 

3. As for your logic disastrophe, there is no scenario where scum skips their NK on N1. It's a time-bomb setup... they have to knock off as many townies as possible as soon as possible to win. 

 

Anyone looking for a creative way for scum to skip a NK is most likely scum - nobody else would have reason to think like that. 

 

That's why I took 0 time to talk about, and neither did anyone else. 

 

We good now?

 

 

This is a much more fleshed out and formulated argument, thanks

 

1. I've definitely changed a lot since I played here, and one of those ways is that I swear a lot more than when I was here.  And like I have to keep saying over and over again, **I did not forget the rule**, I just forgot how strictly it was enforced and what was OK and not OK.  Also, its much easier to remember someone's personality than change the way that I've been talking for a few years.  No lol, I don't have Tourrette's, but I've also accidentally sworn at family reunions, and uncountable times in front of my parents, fwiw.  It's become part of my casual vocabulary which I don't think is some incredible thing, its fairly common to slip up.  I see what you're saying with the whole "air of believability thing" but that argument doesn't really make sense when you think about it more.  Both town and scum have "earnest" moments in the game where they're trying incredibly hard to do something and will seem very determined.  The opposite is true where both scum and town can seem lazy or uninterested.  Its more of a null tell than a way to separate scum/town.

 

2. When I mentioned my DL thing, there were also others who agreed with me, so its not like it was just me.  And also, like I mentioned before, the thing wasn't just being around at DL.  LZM wasn't around and I was fine with that.  He also mentioned that he wouldn't be there at DL, which allowed us to keep that in mind and act upon that.  Obviously you can't always be around whenever DL is, but its not hard at all to let us know that since we know when DL is 48 hours in advance.  At worst, emergencies will come up and that's fine, but that didn't happen to you.  Otherwise, scum can be "around" at DL, but not post so they don't have to contribute to town trains like the Hally one, and look better.

 

3. This is the worst of your 3 points by far, and an incredibly shallow perspective from someone I remember making some incredibly complex setups and crazy mafia games and its pinging me hard.  I've already explained how by no killing, scum would have a higher expected townies dead till next free day than if they killed.  In simpler terms, they wouldn't need to shoot Adella because town would lynch Adella for them, and then they could use the kill the night after.  So same number of night kills in that period, but they were able to waste a whole day for town and get an extra dead townie.

 

 

Okay, forget 1 & 2 for now...

 

Explain again how scum skipping a NK equals the "same number of night kills in that period". Hold my hand like I'm a small child and walk me through this?

 

"Okay, you're right; those are flimsy reeds, but this other one, it's not as flimsy!"

 

 

Dude, just stop. This is terrible.

[DPR]

Please remember folks, post trimming saves lives <3

 

LOL. Ninja'd

[Gentled Ben]

 

1. To me, this starts out as a valid point. I mean, if you grew up on this site, then one of the most basic rules should be pretty solidly ingrained in you, and not dropping F bombs is a pretty solid rule around here. However, people do forget things (hence the common phrase, "I don't remember"), sometimes important things ("What is the combination to this padlock?") while remembering trivial things (I bought this padlock for $3.99. Now if I could only open it..."). That's not "magical;" it's how memory works--yours, mine, and his. You cling to his question of the profanity ban here, this thin little reed, throughout D1, but when he pops in and drops an F bomb, you blow right past it because you aren't really invested in the belief that his faulty memory is a scum tell; you've just chosen him out as your mislynch and used that as an early and easy scum tell to justify a vote for the day, but it actually takes posts from other people (Adella? I don't remember who brought it up) to point out to you that he had dropped an F bomb and that it's inconsistent of you not to pounce on that as further evidence of your theory that he's scum. Now, however, you take that F bomb up and make this elaborate-yet-flimsy construct out of it that involves complicated emotional manipulation of others in response to his own complicated emotional investment as revealed by the clever tell that only you could see, rather than the obvious explanation that a lot of people cuss all the time with not emotional attachment to it at all. It's called a "potty mouth," and he indicated at the start that he has developed one since last posting here, and so he wanted to be certain that he could not, in fact, indulge his tendency towards profanity on this board. Of course he doesn't write about the "F****** Visigoths" in his term paper. Neither do you, but I bet you let some words slip by in more relaxed contexts, like playing a game on a forum, but that won't help you lynch somebody, so you conveniently ignore it. You have focused on him like a laser beam from what? His very first post? And you haven't really dug at anyone else or responded until now to any requests to explain your obssession with him.

 

 

3. Or it could be worth discussing, just like Verbal's suggestion that the vigs reveal themselves, even if it's not a good idea. Honestly, I saw merit to both sides of both arguments, and talking things out is the only way we're going to find the wolves, because eventually they will trip themselves up. Or maybe, they'll do it right out of the starting gate by building some bizarre construct out of a thin reed.

 

 

 

I trimmed the original - it's a few posts above if anyone needs it. 

 

So, Ben, you're just wrong. 

 

You didn't read what I wrote. You didn't read what Adella wrote, or how I responded to it ( proving your point to be mistaken ) and you've missed my points on Rand entirely. I haven't "laser focused" on Rand, I've answered questions when they come up. I've begun to put a profile together on everybody. 

 

You're either emotionally involved and can't see the forest for the trees - which is exactly what I've pointed out as a technique that Rand is using... just saying' - or you are ham-fisting a cover for a scum mate. I tend to think it's the former unless you have some really, really bad mates. 

 

There is always a possibility that someone, even me, can miss the forest for the trees, just like I am accusing you of doing with Rand, but I think I am being open-minded here. I did read everything that was written, but the early days of this thread were when I was camping and catching up, and things got jumbled, so it's possible that things can be hazy. I am open to the idea that you are town  and are focused on Rand as scum (which he might be), but I am not persuaded enough to change my vote.

[Gentled Ben]

 

Please remember folks, post trimming saves lives <3

 

LOL. Ninja'd

 

My bad.

[DPR]

There is always a possibility that someone, even me, can miss the forest for the trees, just like I am accusing you of doing with Rand, but I think I am being open-minded here. I did read everything that was written, but the early days of this thread were when I was camping and catching up, and things got jumbled, so it's possible that things can be hazy. I am open to the idea that you are town  and are focused on Rand as scum (which he might be), but I am not persuaded enough to change my vote.

 

 

 

 

Great. Vote where you want. But do me a favor - go back and find my response to Adella regarding me "not noticing" the F-bomb. Then explain how exactly you missed that point, or try to explain yourself out of it.

 

This is not to sway your vote - that's unimportant as anyone can and take advantage of a mislynch attempt and bury a vote, as you yourself have pointed out. I ask you do this so that we can all see where your thought process is. 

[DPR]

Also, why are you answering for rand? I asked him the question - not you.

[RandA lThor]

For the sake of consolidation and self preservation, I'm willing to look at Marsh and Sooh for the lynch.

 

Marsh because I've seen him coast as scum before and because his reversal on Rand feels like coasting to me, along with the fact that he hasn't taken a hard side on anything.

 

Sooh because she hasn't pinged me at all - and that's because she also dod not take sides on anything.

 

The Clov slot should be resolved by BFG, so I'm fine with letting her play that out. Nyn and Verb should move toward resolution for me today with their votes and comments.  

I was going to say that if consolidation is needed on my end, Sooh would be the next reasonable lynch option for me, but this slow vote building towards her is feeling bad to me, and is almost identical to what happened to Hally.  Of course the initial train on Adella was bad too, so not a great example, but the way the train started on Hally (she was inactive, people missing out and putting their vote on her, etc.) is eerily similar.  More on that later.

 

 

I know the setup

 

 

That will totally help!

 

First thing you said that I agreed with lol.

 

 

 

 

 

Reads & Reasons Why Players Might be Scum

by

Me

 

...

 

1. Verbal32 - Found it odd he didn't vote D1. Very unhelpful in terms of creating a record to stand on.

2. Ironeyes - Didn't love his reversal on Rand.

 

3. DreadPirateRoberts - Towniest Townie that ever Towned. 

 

4. Clovdyx - Made some good points so far. 

 

5. Gentled Ben - Playing the newbie card up a more than I'd like to see. Terrible instincts?

 

6. LedZepMan - Town Vanilla

 

7. Shitsure Kamimashita - Started game as an active solver. Slowly faded into background after the fingers started pointing.

 

8. Adella - Town 1x Vigilante

 

9. Nynaeve - Felt okay about her until last night. But, her unnecessary personal attacks and lack of game solving points looks bad.

 

10. Sooh - Hasn't really struck me one way or another. She has been open about not enjoying playing as scum before, but she was more stressed about it then. Null.

 

11. Hallia - Town Vanilla

 

12. RandA lThor - Strongest scum read. I don't buy anything he's selling. I've made mutltiple points, and as those are stacking up. Along with yesterday's points, his fit at EoD felt contrived, as did his profanity "slip" and faux outrage. His logic regarding scum skipping the NK is just a disaster. 

 

[v] Rand [/v]

 

 

Aight lets do this for fun.  Besides it being suspicious that I didn't remember how the CoC worked and that I have a problem with unconsciously swearing, what other "multiple points" do you have against me?  I see that you said fit at EoD and faux outrage (though I'm assuming the second is connected to the swearing thing), but what fit at EoD are you talking about?  And my logic regarding scum skipping the NK is a disaster, yet you took 0 time to even argue against it?  Why wouldn't scum skip their NK?

 

 

 

Here ya go pumpkin:

 

1. You joined this PG-13 site when you were about 13, right? And stayed and played mafia for several years, right? Been my experience that everyone is aware of the PG-13 rule - it gets highlighted at least once per game and DM is somewhat unique (at least on the boards I've been on) with that rule. 

 

But you "forgot" it.

 

Okay. 

 

Magically, you have an amazing memory concerning player's habits. That means you forgot DM had a language code, but you remembered smallish details about Verbal and others. 

 

Okay...

 

But then you push it with swearing again on thread, because once again, you just keep forgetting that darn PG-13 rule? And you call it "unconscious swearing", which implies that this happens frequently? It's not game related per say, but I am curious, do you "unconsciously swear" often? Like, in a thesis paper... "The Impact of The F***ing Visigoths During the F***ing Migration Period by Rand F***ing AlThor". Or is it more casual? "Dear Mom & Dad, having a great f***ing time at school! Love, Rand"

 

Thing is, swears convey emotional attachment. That's why people use them. And by conveying emotional attachment in this game, you accomplish a couple of things: you create an air of believability and earnestness and you also to raise the stakes in attacks on your points - kind of like "you don't want to go there with me".

 

These make excellent places for scum to hide. That's what I think you're probably doing. Or, alternatively, we've discovered that you have Tourretet's Syndrome and now you can begin recovery, saving you years of embarrassment on job applications and rsvp's. Win-win.

 

2. And that's where the faux outrage and rahrahrah observations feed in. You notice how you're the only one talking about being around at DL? It's because it's not realistic for everyone to be there, so they just vote. Everybody knows this, so you making a big deal out of people not being around and trying to rally at the end is very likely an attempt to appear super duper townish.

 

You like to use emotion to influence people's opinion of you. It's a decent technique - it's effective as long as nobody pokes holes in the logic of it.

 

So far I've pointed out the possibility that you're using this technique. Your responses to my suss lead me to believe I'm right because a player that wasn't doing it would respond with "whatevs" and not worry about it. You flinched. 

 

3. As for your logic disastrophe, there is no scenario where scum skips their NK on N1. It's a time-bomb setup... they have to knock off as many townies as possible as soon as possible to win. 

 

Anyone looking for a creative way for scum to skip a NK is most likely scum - nobody else would have reason to think like that. 

 

That's why I took 0 time to talk about, and neither did anyone else. 

 

We good now?

 

 

This is a much more fleshed out and formulated argument, thanks

 

1. I've definitely changed a lot since I played here, and one of those ways is that I swear a lot more than when I was here.  And like I have to keep saying over and over again, **I did not forget the rule**, I just forgot how strictly it was enforced and what was OK and not OK.  Also, its much easier to remember someone's personality than change the way that I've been talking for a few years.  No lol, I don't have Tourrette's, but I've also accidentally sworn at family reunions, and uncountable times in front of my parents, fwiw.  It's become part of my casual vocabulary which I don't think is some incredible thing, its fairly common to slip up.  I see what you're saying with the whole "air of believability thing" but that argument doesn't really make sense when you think about it more.  Both town and scum have "earnest" moments in the game where they're trying incredibly hard to do something and will seem very determined.  The opposite is true where both scum and town can seem lazy or uninterested.  Its more of a null tell than a way to separate scum/town.

 

2. When I mentioned my DL thing, there were also others who agreed with me, so its not like it was just me.  And also, like I mentioned before, the thing wasn't just being around at DL.  LZM wasn't around and I was fine with that.  He also mentioned that he wouldn't be there at DL, which allowed us to keep that in mind and act upon that.  Obviously you can't always be around whenever DL is, but its not hard at all to let us know that since we know when DL is 48 hours in advance.  At worst, emergencies will come up and that's fine, but that didn't happen to you.  Otherwise, scum can be "around" at DL, but not post so they don't have to contribute to town trains like the Hally one, and look better.

 

3. This is the worst of your 3 points by far, and an incredibly shallow perspective from someone I remember making some incredibly complex setups and crazy mafia games and its pinging me hard.  I've already explained how by no killing, scum would have a higher expected townies dead till next free day than if they killed.  In simpler terms, they wouldn't need to shoot Adella because town would lynch Adella for them, and then they could use the kill the night after.  So same number of night kills in that period, but they were able to waste a whole day for town and get an extra dead townie.

 

 

Okay, forget 1 & 2 for now...

 

Explain again how scum skipping a NK equals the "same number of night kills in that period". Hold my hand like I'm a small child and walk me through this?

 

I actually love doing this kind of thing so here we go.  Since we know that Adella and LZM were town and Adella revealed LZM as her target, this will be easier to describe.  Let's take it for granted that what scum did (killing Adella) was the optimal move for them as they didn't want a cleared town if they chose to submit a NK.

 

Scenario 1: Scum submits a NK on Adella

 

Night 1 Result - Adella (town) and LZM (town) both die.

 

Day 2 Result - Town continues normally with a standard day (what's happening right now)

 

Overall Result - 2 town dead, 0 mafia dead, 6-3 town to mafia ratio

 

Scenario 2: Scum does not submit a NK on Adella

 

Night 1 Result - LZM (town) dies.

 

Day 2 Result - Adella looks like scum with only one kill submitted who fake claimed to save herself.  Town lynches Adella.  Adella (town) dies.

 

Night 2 Result - Scum has another night to target town.  Some town dies.

 

Day 3 Result - Town continues normally with a standard day (what's happening right now)

 

So if scum didn't submit a NK night 1, and did night 2, we'd be in the same situation we're in right now but with one less townie in our group, which is definitively worse.  Luckily scum didn't see that when it happened, but it pretty definitely helps out scum to not help confirm Adella.

 

Sooh (tldr ISO)

 

I actually liked the early vote on Verb, I know it's 'just' RVS and means little, but it's an early indication of being relaxed in thread, there's a tonal contrast with how she reacts to Verb later. There isn't a huge amount after, scum read on Adella, town read on LZM, Nyn and Verb, null on Hallia. she was around for end of Day 1, but didn't move her vote off a claimed vig. And then there's the vig claim discussion and 'don't shoot me' all of which is pretty much null (or at least I'm reading from two possible opposite perspectives ). Hasn't posted Day 2

 

Would ~guess that Soon/Rand aren't teamed based on the end of day posting thing and Nyn looks good in some of the quoted posts

 

Sooh hasn't posted anything that's made me feel bad, but I dislike the surface level thoughts she's showing. The switch on Verb who she'd been reacting badly to to a town read comes from nowhere and is for??? resons (unless he posted lots of stuff I haven't read in between )

 

Could vote here

 

Can you expand on why Sooh and I wouldn't be on the same team?  Because for me at the very least, that's a case for Sooh being scum

 

Also Ben I appreciate the defense, I'm just curious to the reason why, are you doing so mainly to build a case on DPR?  If so, that makes sense.  If not, why are you defending me, are you that sure I'm town?  I mean if you are, great that's even better, that doesn't happen often though, especially in a setup like this with no investigation roles.

[RandA lThor]

Also, why are you answering for rand? I asked him the question - not you.

lol ninja'd

[RandA lThor]

And RIP sorry for also not spoilering quotes

[BFG]

I feel like I'm missing context for a lot of the current debate, but I think Ben believes his points, although I'd feel better if he backed them up with a vote.

 

That said I disagree with his read in general. I think the previous doubling down on the Rand argument is a good look for dpr (although I need to read their back and forth to see how the backing off reads), as third he doubled down on points I disagreed with, but followed a more conventional(?) logic. As town his thought process tends to be more individual(?), although I say that without knowing his mafia game (and taking that with a pinch of salt since I know his opinion of meta :p)

[BFG]

And Ben is voting, my bad

[DPR]

I feel like I'm missing context for a lot of the current debate, but I think Ben believes his points, although I'd feel better if he backed them up with a vote.

 

That said I disagree with his read in general. I think the previous doubling down on the Rand argument is a good look for dpr (although I need to read their back and forth to see how the backing off reads), as third he doubled down on points I disagreed with, but followed a more conventional(?) logic. As town his thought process tends to be more individual(?), although I say that without knowing his mafia game (and taking that with a pinch of salt since I know his opinion of meta :p)

 

 

Ben's vote is on me. I have not backed off my Rand view, if that's who you meant.

[DPR]

Day of the Ninjas. 

[DPR]

I actually love doing this kind of thing so here we go.  Since we know that Adella and LZM were town and Adella revealed LZM as her target, this will be easier to describe.  Let's take it for granted that what scum did (killing Adella) was the optimal move for them as they didn't want a cleared town if they chose to submit a NK.

 

 

Scenario 1: Scum submits a NK on Adella

 

Night 1 Result - Adella (town) and LZM (town) both die.

 

Day 2 Result - Town continues normally with a standard day (what's happening right now)

 

Overall Result - 2 town dead, 0 mafia dead, 6-3 town to mafia ratio

 

Scenario 2: Scum does not submit a NK on Adella

 

Night 1 Result - LZM (town) dies.

 

Day 2 Result - Adella looks like scum with only one kill submitted who fake claimed to save herself.  Town lynches Adella.  Adella (town) dies.

 

Night 2 Result - Scum has another night to target town.  Some town dies.

 

Day 3 Result - Town continues normally with a standard day (what's happening right now)

 

So if scum didn't submit a NK night 1, and did night 2, we'd be in the same situation we're in right now but with one less townie in our group, which is definitively worse.  Luckily scum didn't see that when it happened, but it pretty definitely helps out scum to not help confirm Adella.

 

 

Rand, I want you to be honest with me. Have you been experimenting with teh drugs?

 

We're all friends here - I won't tell your parents.

[BFG]

 

 

For the sake of consolidation and self preservation, I'm willing to look at Marsh and Sooh for the lynch.

 

Marsh because I've seen him coast as scum before and because his reversal on Rand feels like coasting to me, along with the fact that he hasn't taken a hard side on anything.

 

Sooh because she hasn't pinged me at all - and that's because she also dod not take sides on anything.

 

The Clov slot should be resolved by BFG, so I'm fine with letting her play that out. Nyn and Verb should move toward resolution for me today with their votes and comments.

I was going to say that if consolidation is needed on my end, Sooh would be the next reasonable lynch option for me, but this slow vote building towards her is feeling bad to me, and is almost identical to what happened to Hally.  Of course the initial train on Adella was bad too, so not a great example, but the way the train started on Hally (she was inactive, people missing out and putting their vote on her, etc.) is eerily similar.  More on that later.

 

 

I know the setup

 

 

That will totally help!

 

First thing you said that I agreed with lol.

 

 

 

 

 

Reads & Reasons Why Players Might be Scum

by

Me

 

...

 

1. Verbal32 - Found it odd he didn't vote D1. Very unhelpful in terms of creating a record to stand on.

2. Ironeyes - Didn't love his reversal on Rand.

 

 

 

 

 

 

3. DreadPirateRoberts - Towniest Townie that ever Towned. 

 

4. Clovdyx - Made some good points so far. 

 

5. Gentled Ben - Playing the newbie card up a more than I'd like to see. Terrible instincts?

 

6. LedZepMan - Town Vanilla

 

7. Shitsure Kamimashita - Started game as an active solver. Slowly faded into background after the fingers started pointing.

 

8. Adella - Town 1x Vigilante

 

9. Nynaeve - Felt okay about her until last night. But, her unnecessary personal attacks and lack of game solving points looks bad.

 

10. Sooh - Hasn't really struck me one way or another. She has been open about not enjoying playing as scum before, but she was more stressed about it then. Null.

 

11. Hallia - Town Vanilla

 

12. RandA lThor - Strongest scum read. I don't buy anything he's selling. I've made mutltiple points, and as those are stacking up. Along with yesterday's points, his fit at EoD felt contrived, as did his profanity "slip" and faux outrage. His logic regarding scum skipping the NK is just a disaster. 

 

[v] Rand [/v]

 

 

Aight lets do this for fun.  Besides it being suspicious that I didn't remember how the CoC worked and that I have a problem with unconsciously swearing, what other "multiple points" do you have against me?  I see that you said fit at EoD and faux outrage (though I'm assuming the second is connected to the swearing thing), but what fit at EoD are you talking about?  And my logic regarding scum skipping the NK is a disaster, yet you took 0 time to even argue against it?  Why wouldn't scum skip their NK?

 

 

Here ya go pumpkin:

 

1. You joined this PG-13 site when you were about 13, right? And stayed and played mafia for several years, right? Been my experience that everyone is aware of the PG-13 rule - it gets highlighted at least once per game and DM is somewhat unique (at least on the boards I've been on) with that rule. 

 

But you "forgot" it.

 

Okay. 

 

Magically, you have an amazing memory concerning player's habits. That means you forgot DM had a language code, but you remembered smallish details about Verbal and others. 

 

Okay...

 

But then you push it with swearing again on thread, because once again, you just keep forgetting that darn PG-13 rule? And you call it "unconscious swearing", which implies that this happens frequently? It's not game related per say, but I am curious, do you "unconsciously swear" often? Like, in a thesis paper... "The Impact of The F***ing Visigoths During the F***ing Migration Period by Rand F***ing AlThor". Or is it more casual? "Dear Mom & Dad, having a great f***ing time at school! Love, Rand"

 

Thing is, swears convey emotional attachment. That's why people use them. And by conveying emotional attachment in this game, you accomplish a couple of things: you create an air of believability and earnestness and you also to raise the stakes in attacks on your points - kind of like "you don't want to go there with me".

 

These make excellent places for scum to hide. That's what I think you're probably doing. Or, alternatively, we've discovered that you have Tourretet's Syndrome and now you can begin recovery, saving you years of embarrassment on job applications and rsvp's. Win-win.

 

2. And that's where the faux outrage and rahrahrah observations feed in. You notice how you're the only one talking about being around at DL? It's because it's not realistic for everyone to be there, so they just vote. Everybody knows this, so you making a big deal out of people not being around and trying to rally at the end is very likely an attempt to appear super duper townish.

 

You like to use emotion to influence people's opinion of you. It's a decent technique - it's effective as long as nobody pokes holes in the logic of it.

 

So far I've pointed out the possibility that you're using this technique. Your responses to my suss lead me to believe I'm right because a player that wasn't doing it would respond with "whatevs" and not worry about it. You flinched. 

 

3. As for your logic disastrophe, there is no scenario where scum skips their NK on N1. It's a time-bomb setup... they have to knock off as many townies as possible as soon as possible to win. 

 

Anyone looking for a creative way for scum to skip a NK is most likely scum - nobody else would have reason to think like that. 

 

That's why I took 0 time to talk about, and neither did anyone else. 

 

We good now?

 

This is a much more fleshed out and formulated argument, thanks

 

1. I've definitely changed a lot since I played here, and one of those ways is that I swear a lot more than when I was here.  And like I have to keep saying over and over again, **I did not forget the rule**, I just forgot how strictly it was enforced and what was OK and not OK.  Also, its much easier to remember someone's personality than change the way that I've been talking for a few years.  No lol, I don't have Tourrette's, but I've also accidentally sworn at family reunions, and uncountable times in front of my parents, fwiw.  It's become part of my casual vocabulary which I don't think is some incredible thing, its fairly common to slip up.  I see what you're saying with the whole "air of believability thing" but that argument doesn't really make sense when you think about it more.  Both town and scum have "earnest" moments in the game where they're trying incredibly hard to do something and will seem very determined.  The opposite is true where both scum and town can seem lazy or uninterested.  Its more of a null tell than a way to separate scum/town.

 

2. When I mentioned my DL thing, there were also others who agreed with me, so its not like it was just me.  And also, like I mentioned before, the thing wasn't just being around at DL.  LZM wasn't around and I was fine with that.  He also mentioned that he wouldn't be there at DL, which allowed us to keep that in mind and act upon that.  Obviously you can't always be around whenever DL is, but its not hard at all to let us know that since we know when DL is 48 hours in advance.  At worst, emergencies will come up and that's fine, but that didn't happen to you.  Otherwise, scum can be "around" at DL, but not post so they don't have to contribute to town trains like the Hally one, and look better.

 

3. This is the worst of your 3 points by far, and an incredibly shallow perspective from someone I remember making some incredibly complex setups and crazy mafia games and its pinging me hard.  I've already explained how by no killing, scum would have a higher expected townies dead till next free day than if they killed.  In simpler terms, they wouldn't need to shoot Adella because town would lynch Adella for them, and then they could use the kill the night after.  So same number of night kills in that period, but they were able to waste a whole day for town and get an extra dead townie.

 

Okay, forget 1 & 2 for now...

 

Explain again how scum skipping a NK equals the "same number of night kills in that period". Hold my hand like I'm a small child and walk me through this?

I actually love doing this kind of thing so here we go.  Since we know that Adella and LZM were town and Adella revealed LZM as her target, this will be easier to describe.  Let's take it for granted that what scum did (killing Adella) was the optimal move for them as they didn't want a cleared town if they chose to submit a NK.

 

Scenario 1: Scum submits a NK on Adella

 

Night 1 Result - Adella (town) and LZM (town) both die.

 

Day 2 Result - Town continues normally with a standard day (what's happening right now)

 

Overall Result - 2 town dead, 0 mafia dead, 6-3 town to mafia ratio

 

Scenario 2: Scum does not submit a NK on Adella

 

Night 1 Result - LZM (town) dies.

 

Day 2 Result - Adella looks like scum with only one kill submitted who fake claimed to save herself.  Town lynches Adella.  Adella (town) dies.

 

Night 2 Result - Scum has another night to target town.  Some town dies.

 

Day 3 Result - Town continues normally with a standard day (what's happening right now)

 

So if scum didn't submit a NK night 1, and did night 2, we'd be in the same situation we're in right now but with one less townie in our group, which is definitively worse.  Luckily scum didn't see that when it happened, but it pretty definitely helps out scum to not help confirm Adella.

 

Sooh (tldr ISO)

 

I actually liked the early vote on Verb, I know it's 'just' RVS and means little, but it's an early indication of being relaxed in thread, there's a tonal contrast with how she reacts to Verb later. There isn't a huge amount after, scum read on Adella, town read on LZM, Nyn and Verb, null on Hallia. she was around for end of Day 1, but didn't move her vote off a claimed vig. And then there's the vig claim discussion and 'don't shoot me' all of which is pretty much null (or at least I'm reading from two possible opposite perspectives ). Hasn't posted Day 2

 

Would ~guess that Soon/Rand aren't teamed based on the end of day posting thing and Nyn looks good in some of the quoted posts

 

Sooh hasn't posted anything that's made me feel bad, but I dislike the surface level thoughts she's showing. The switch on Verb who she'd been reacting badly to to a town read comes from nowhere and is for??? resons (unless he posted lots of stuff I haven't read in between )

 

Could vote here

 

Can you expand on why Sooh and I wouldn't be on the same team?  Because for me at the very least, that's a case for Sooh being scum

 

Also Ben I appreciate the defense, I'm just curious to the reason why, are you doing so mainly to build a case on DPR?  If so, that makes sense.  If not, why are you defending me, are you that sure I'm town?  I mean if you are, great that's even better, that doesn't happen often though, especially in a setup like this with no investigation roles.

 

Your scenario assumes that Adella would be an automatic lynch if mafia no shot. Given it's an open setup I'd be reluctant to lynch a claim, given their are other ways to vet them. I appreciate that's not really the point you're making though

 

I mean I doubt you'd be m/m, Sooh's post towards you about the end of day stuff didn't read as to a teammate, given the context of her other posting at the time (focused more on 'bad shot') it reads strangely and would draw attention to you if she was bigger and you were teammates

[BFG]

Day of the Ninjas.

[BFG]

Ironic quote failure is ironic

 

I start at 'your scenario assumes...'

[BFG]

 

I feel like I'm missing context for a lot of the current debate, but I think Ben believes his points, although I'd feel better if he backed them up with a vote.

 

That said I disagree with his read in general. I think the previous doubling down on the Rand argument is a good look for dpr (although I need to read their back and forth to see how the backing off reads), as third he doubled down on points I disagreed with, but followed a more conventional(?) logic. As town his thought process tends to be more individual(?), although I say that without knowing his mafia game (and taking that with a pinch of salt since I know his opinion of meta :p)

 

 

Ben's vote is on me. I have not backed off my Rand view, if that's who you meant.

 

I know you still think he's scum, I mean the dropping of the first 2 points (at least for now?)