Regarding Rand vs. Moridin...

[Lisa Campbell]

OK I'm here but there's not much action at the moment or wasn't when I started so here goes. I'll try to back things up but if you want exact quotes and page numbers go look it up yourself, blame it on my health. I have enough trouble typing I'm not fossicking through books on top of that.

 

I don't think Rand vs. Moridin is really going to happen, or not as everyone is hoping from the leadup over the last 13 books. Hearing chorus of groans and screams already. Bear with me.

 

Please read on and then tell me with logic (not just with no-way read my blog answers 'cause I won't do that and I don't care how many lemons you've had for breakfast - said with tongue in cheek so please take it the way it is intended). This is pure speculation so either play nice, or keep quiet, thanks:

 

Okay I've been thinking why the title A Memory of Light? You know it's not going to be what anyone thinks, probably even me, RJ will haunt us right up to the last page. So this makes me think the rivalry between Moridin and Rand could be a red herring, of the juicy variety.

 

And before you throw up your hands and harrumph read why:

 

Firstly, there's the link between them and the bodyswap theory which I think is just not RJ. Sure he will surprise us but it will be much more twisted than that, the crafty bugger. But there is definately a link and we've seen that it directly affects Moridin:

* with the sickness Rand used to have when he embraced Saidin and I daresay the double vision as well;

* with Moridin feeling the pain of Rand losing his hand even to taking to holding his hand behind his back the way Rand does;

* I'm sure there are more but I can't think of them off the top of my head.

I wonder if the crossed streams of balefire are unique like Fain. Have never seen it myself but then again I don't live here like some others.

 

Secondly, is about when Moridin was playing t'cheran he mused that the Fisher changes sides, or rather is possessed by both sides many times before the game is over. I think he was referring to the here and now, this particular game, not all the cycles they have fought. And that is speculation but I just think it so. Also he mused that he was playing both sides of the board and that could mean several things, but I'm going with him using the link to influence Rand.

 

Up to the end of The Gathering Storm, we see the emergence of Dark Rand, as in the Fisher is possessed by the dark side but then lo and behold, Cadsuane pushes him off the edge and by luck, and probably Perrin's prescence contributed, we have a new and improved Light Rand. If Mat was dicing at the time that may have just saved creation, at least for now any way. We know that Lews Therin made his own luck as a mint makes coin according to the Forsaken.

 

So now the Fisher is possessed by the light side, or at least for the time being. This is only two changes of who possesses the Fisher, and I think there is enough foreshadowing that Rand will spiral down again to the depths of despair, maybe being the Broken Wolf as seems to be the general consensus the last I checked that thread. The more important issue though, is that Rand has had a whole book to influence Moridin. Keep that in mind.

 

At this point, the Field of Merrilor, at the end of Towers of Midnight, everyone is camping out under the stars on the eve of the biggest coalition meeting since the Aiel War. As far as Egwene goes she wants to stop Rand from breaking the Seals and as far as Rand goes he plans to tell them all he's doing it anyway and they can either back him up or be swallowed by the Dark One. Problem is, at the start of A Memory of Light there are a few time lines to be caught up to the present.

 

Now is where I am speculating about what could happen in A Memory of Light.

 

The invasion of Caemlyn. I've seen it on threads here that some think it necessary for Caemlyn to fall. That would mean the loss of:

* half of the Band of the Red Hand, the best army (Seanchan are good but rely on numbers), who do extremely well when outnumbered;

* the Dragons, which would be bad, very bad, for the light side.

* P.S. the Aiel are not an army, they work differently and will fight where Rand says (after conference with Rand).

Some clever Kinswoman will definately travel to the Field to tell Elayne that Caemlyn is under attack. In fact, I'd say highly likely she left orders to that effect in case of emergencies. She will then squeak, say "Sorry Rand, I've gotta go sort something out, we'll talk about this" gestures to her swollen belly, "when I get back. You will wait for me won't you Rand?" and flutters her eyelashes, grabs Gawyn, then hastily departs through the open gateway. Birgitte swears an oath under her breath and follows. Rand thinks WTF then stops the kinswoman before she leaves too so that he knows what's happening and sends a few Ash'aman to help out. This is assuming that Taim and the Dreamspike have been dealt with in the catchup, I think it has because Elayne certainly couldn't ride there in her condition, and it would probably take too long that way, especially with a palanquin.

 

The death-wish ride of Lan and those who follow the Banner of the Golden Crane. I'll get to that momentarily.

 

Egwene, tapping her foot, finally gets a word in edgewise and tells Rand he cannot travel directly to Shayol Ghul, the Dark One will sense him and that he must not break the Seals, at least not yet. Rand asks how she knows this and she tells him that Verin died studying the Black Ajah and elaborates on some of the stuff about the Dark One's plans. Egwene has had a chance now after the purge and defeating Mesaana to decipher Verin's greatest work. Rand rubs his chin thoughtfully.

 

Lan knows Nynaeve now holds his bond and sends love to her through it. Then that changes to stony resolution and Nynaeve senses it. She begs Rand to send aid. He does feeling guilty about thinking of Lan as a pawn earlier, but only enough to save the Malkieri yet still use them as a diversion. Nynaeve goes with them.

 

Rand talks things through with Egwene, the various kings and queens, sets plans in motion and agrees not to break the Seals until he gets to where he wants to fight the Shadow, picks his battle ground. He agrees to send word of when he gets there to Egwene so that she can have the message relayed to whomever needs to know.

 

Rand will then travel to Tarwin's Gap with Logain and other Ash'aman and bonded Aes Sedai and decimates the Shadowspawn that Lan is barely holding back. From there Rand can travel with the Ash'aman and Sisters to Shayol Ghul on foot. I think that during this journey the spiral back to the dark side may take place again. The journey was so hard. His boots have next to no sole left and his feet have been cut to ribbons on the sharp rocks at the base of the mountain. They still bleed.

 

He sends the the Ash'aman with the promised word and breaks the seals. Moridin steps out of a gateway right in front of him and stares at the shattered Seals. The Dark One comes howling through the Bore and Moridin throws himself to his knees saying "I am not worthy Great Lord, I am a bug beneath your feet please allow me to serve". The Dark One basically ignores him and focuses on Rand, pushing at his mind and soul to turn him to the dark side.

 

Feeling what Rand feels, Moridin realises that the reason he went to the Shadow is more of a nightmare than he thought and has changed his mind about wanting to fall into oblivion, HE has a memory of light that he sends to Rand to turn him back to the light. So playing both sides of the game could mean more than what was on the surface in that POV with the t'cheran game.

 

The Dark One so sure of his victory is pretty peeved and turns to Moridin, "YOU KNOW HOW I REWARD FAILURE ISHAMAEL", Moridin nods and remains bowed, head down, waiting for his life to end. Rand makes his getaway while the Dark One is distracted with Moridin, "FIND HIM, YOU MAY YET REDEEM YOURSELF". Moridin skedaddles to somewhere he can read the pattern then reports that Rand has gone to the place where he cleansed the taint. The Dark One follows the trail.

 

Waiting for Rand on the hilltop with a view to what was Shadar Logoth, are Matt, Tuon, Perrin, Elayne, Egwene, Min, Avienda, Nynaeve, Alivia and Logain and his Ash'aman linked to their Aes Sedai plus a few extra Aes Sedai and Ash'aman. They hold the Dark One while Rand, Nynaeve and Alivia use Callandor to construct a new prison for the Dark One. Rand dies as the prison comes into existence. Min, Elayne and Avienda weep over his corpse.

 

That's as Far as I can go without more inspiration. And I probably forgot some stuff along the way.

[Guest Czechs In The M'Hael]

I think Moridin will be alive at the end

[Lisa Campbell]

I think Moridin will be alive at the end

 

I didn't say the Dark One killed him. Just that he was about to.

[Terez]

I usually try not to get quite so detailed with my predictions, unless I think I can back it up with presumed foreshadowing and prophecies and whatnot. But I just came across this bit from RJ and thought it relevant (love the prophecy reference):

 

In Crossroads of Twilight, things are reaching that stage where everything really is balanced on the point of a pin, or of a sword, if you prefer. There are a lot of things that could go in many directions. Good or evil can win in any number of different places and different levels.

I believe that Rand and Moridin are still linked, and that, while the epiphany on Dragonmount was of utmost importance, it's not the end of the Dark Rand threat.

 

Also, I made three tweets in a row the other day on this theme. Two people liked the middle one on Facebook, but no one commented on the three of them together:

 

Terez

"On the morrow, they'd hear his demands...on the monarchs of the world in exchange for going to Shayol Ghul to face the Dark One."

Terez

"In pride he conquers, forcing the proud to yield. Pray that the heart of stone remembers tears, and the soul of fire, love."

Terez

"She could see the memories, so distant, in Moridin's eyes...the soul was the same. Yes, he knew exactly what al'Thor was feeling."

[Lisa Campbell]

Thanks Terez, those tweets were great but I don't follow Twitter so I hadn't seen them. I also hadn't heardthe RJ quote either.

 

I know it was very detailed but I just got on a roll and I did say that a lot of it was speculation (from FoM on) and I tried to be a bit humourous there to reiterate that.

 

Hopefully others will have more to say today. It was the middle of the night by the time I finished and now my eyes are hanging out of my head.

[Southpaw89]

I do hope Rand and Moridin actually fight

[Terez]

Why? We've already seen that three times...

[Southpaw89]

because I like to think of Moridin different than Ba'alzaamon (pretty sure I butchered that). Obviously they're same person in different body but knowing it's Tarmon Gai'don, I'd love to see one final epic showdown. Even if some crazy stuff happens without either one being victor.

[FarShainMael]

 

< snip >

 

I don't think Rand vs. Moridin is really going to happen, or not as everyone is hoping from the leadup over the last 13 books. Hearing chorus of groans and screams already. Bear with me.

 

Please read on and then tell me with logic (not just with no-way read my blog answers 'cause I won't do that and I don't care how many lemons you've had for breakfast - said with tongue in cheek so please take it the way it is intended). This is pure speculation so either play nice, or keep quiet, thanks:

 

Okay I've been thinking why the title A Memory of Light? You know it's not going to be what anyone thinks, probably even me, RJ will haunt us right up to the last page. So this makes me think the rivalry between Moridin and Rand could be a red herring, of the juicy variety.

 

So do I and for one simple reason - we have not seen the effect VoG had on Moridin through the link! What happened to him? Was he blinded by Rand's Light á la Torkumen? Was he overwhelmed by Rand's epiphany, when he remembered love, and peace, and joy, and hope - all things completely and diametrically opposed to Moridin's nihilistic views?

 

So basically I'm with you - although I suppose there is a faint possibility that Rand and Moridin may have a confrontation of some kind.

 

That being the case:

 

Secondly, is about when Moridin was playing t'cheranhe mused that the Fisher changes sides, or rather is possessed by both sides many times before the game is over. I think he was referring to the here and now, this particular game, not all the cycles they have fought. And that is speculation but I just think it so. Also he mused that he was playing both sides of the board and that could mean several things, but I'm going with him using the link to influence Rand.

 

Up to the end of The Gathering Storm, we see the emergence of Dark Rand, as in the Fisher is possessed by the dark side but then lo and behold, Cadsuane pushes him off the edge and by luck, and probably Perrin's prescence contributed, we have a new and improved Light Rand. If Mat was dicing at the time that may have just saved creation, at least for now any way. We know that Lews Therin made his own luck as a mint makes coin according to the Forsaken.

 

So now the Fisher is possessed by the light side, or at least for the time being. This is only two changes of who possesses the Fisher, and I think there is enough foreshadowing that Rand will spiral down again to the depths of despair, maybe being the Broken Wolf as seems to be the general consensus the last I checked that thread. The more important issue though, is that Rand has had a whole book to influence Moridin. Keep that in mind.

 

I agree that Moridin may have been referring to the current Age when he speaks of 'before the game is over', rather than the entire conflict lasting through an infinity of Turns. But see my comments above re Rand's influence on Moridin - he may not have needed a whole book!

 

 

At this point, the Field of Merrilor, at the end of Towers of Midnight, everyone is camping out under the stars on the eve of the biggest coalition meeting since the Aiel War. As far as Egwene goes she wants to stop Rand from breaking the Seals and as far as Rand goes he plans to tell them all he's doing it anyway and they can either back him up or be swallowed by the Dark One. Problem is, at the start of A Memory of Light there are a few time lines to be caught up to the present.

 

There certainly are.. Before the opening paras of Ch1 were available, I wondered whether the ToM Epilogue section of Rand's dream of Lanfear was so far ahead of the rest of the action that the Caemlyn situation might already have been resolved. AMoL Ch1 makes that unlikely (even if that was still Rand dreaming, which I think may be the case). So, going on with this:

 

Now is where I am speculating about what could happen in A Memory of Light.

 

The invasion of Caemlyn. I've seen it on threads here that some think it necessary for Caemlyn to fall. That would mean the loss of:

   *   half of the Band of the Red Hand, the best army (Seanchan are good but rely on numbers), who do extremely well when outnumbered;

   *   the Dragons, which would be bad, very bad, for the light side.

   *   P.S. the Aiel are not an army, they work differently and will fight where Rand says (after conference with Rand).

Some clever Kinswoman will definately travel to the Field to tell Elayne that Caemlyn is under attack. In fact, I'd say highly likely she left orders to that effect in case of emergencies. She will then squeak, say "Sorry Rand, I've gotta go sort something out, we'll talk about this" gestures to her swollen belly, "when I get back. You will wait for me won't you Rand?" and flutters her eyelashes, grabs Gawyn, then hastily departs through the open gateway. Birgitte swears an oath under her breath and follows. Rand thinks WTF then stops the kinswoman before she leaves too so that he knows what's happening and sends a few Ash'aman to help out. This is assuming that Taim and the Dreamspike have been dealt with in the catchup, I think it has because Elayne certainly couldn't ride there in her condition, and it would probably take too long that way, especially with a palanquin.

 

Not sure she'd grab Gawyn? Birgitte, certainly, but Gawyn is surely with Egwene as her Warder at this point.

 

The death-wish ride of Lan and those who follow the Banner of the Golden Crane. I'll get to that momentarily.

 

Egwene, tapping her foot, finally gets a word in edgewise and tells Rand he cannot travel directly to Shayol Ghul, the Dark One will sense him and that he must not break the Seals, at least not yet. Rand asks how she knows this and she tells him that Verin died studying the Black Ajah and elaborates on some of the stuff about the Dark One's plans. Egwene has had a chance now after the purge and defeating Mesaana to decipher Verin's greatest work. Rand rubs his chin thoughtfully.

 

I'm of the opinion that Egwene has been under Compulsion from Halima. If so, I don't think she'll be quite that reasonable, unless she's overcome the Compulsion as Morgase (and perhaps Gawyn!) did.

 

Lan knows Nynaeve now holds his bond and sends love to her through it. Then that changes to stony resolution and Nynaeve senses it. She begs Rand to send aid. He does feeling guilty about thinking of Lan as a pawn earlier, but only enough to save the Malkieri yet still use them as a diversion. Nynaeve goes with them.

 

It's possible that Rand has already sent help. In ToM3 he says to Egwene 'I have too much to do.. A friend rides to his death without allies'.

 

Rand talks things through with Egwene, the various kings and queens, sets plans in motion and agrees not to break the Seals until he gets to where he wants to fight the Shadow, picks his battle ground. He agrees to send word of when he gets there to Egwene so that she can have the message relayed to whomever needs to know.

 

Rand will then travel to Tarwin's Gap with Logain and other Ash'aman and bonded Aes Sedai and decimates the Shadowspawn that Lan is barely holding back. From there Rand can travel with the Ash'aman and Sisters to Shayol Ghul on foot. I think that during this journey the spiral back to the dark side may take place again. The journey was so hard. His boots have next to no sole left and his feet have been cut to ribbons on the sharp rocks at the base of the mountain. They still bleed.

 

Blood on the rocks..

 

He sends the the Ash'aman with the promised word and breaks the seals. Moridin steps out of a gateway right in front of him and stares at the shattered Seals. The Dark One comes howling through the Bore and Moridin throws himself to his knees saying "I am not worthy Great Lord, I am a bug beneath your feet please allow me to serve". The Dark One basically ignores him and focuses on Rand, pushing at his mind and soul to turn him to the dark side.

 

Feeling what Rand feels, Moridin realises that the reason he went to the Shadow is more of a nightmare than he thought and has changed his mind about wanting to fall into oblivion, HE has a memory of light that he sends to Rand to turn him back to the light. So playing both sides of the game could mean more than what was on the surface in that POV with the t'cheran game.

 

The Dark One so sure of his victory is pretty peeved and turns to Moridin, "YOU KNOW HOW I REWARD FAILURE ISHAMAEL", Moridin nods and remains bowed, head down, waiting for his life to end. Rand makes his getaway while the Dark One is distracted with Moridin, "FIND HIM, YOU MAY YET REDEEM YOURSELF". Moridin skedaddles to somewhere he can read the pattern then reports that Rand has gone to the place where he cleansed the taint.  The Dark One follows the trail.

 

If Moridin was the one who was Turned back to the Light by Rand's epiphany, it would be an interesting variant on this scene..

 

Waiting for Rand on the hilltop with a view to what was Shadar Logoth, are Matt, Tuon, Perrin, Elayne, Egwene, Min, Avienda, Nynaeve, Alivia and Logain and his Ash'aman linked to their Aes Sedai plus a few extra Aes Sedai and Ash'aman. They hold the Dark One while Rand, Nynaeve and Alivia use Callandor to construct a new prison for the Dark One. Rand dies as the prison comes into existence. Min, Elayne and Avienda weep over his corpse.

 

Again, I'm of the opinion that Rand will use Callandor to hold the DO at bay - probably dying in the process, perhaps to confront the DO more directly than he could while alive (see my sig!) while others reconstruct Its prison by Healing the bore.

 

Hmmmm... Of course, it will probably all be completely different, with angles that NO-ONE here has thought of.. We shall see!

[Vardar]

Nice theory!

 

The only issue I have is the Dark One howling through the Bore. I think it's over if that ever happens. As powerful as they are, I don't think anyone can stand up to the power of the Dark One of the Creator in person (Or whatever in person is for them).

[jwood01]

I think Rand may face Moridin, but I dont think it will be a duel. I think it will be a discussion.

 

I think if there is a 1-on-1 battle it will involve Demandred and not Moridin. But even then Demandred seems like he would prefer to fight army vs army.

[Terez]

"And the Lord of the Evening shall face the Broken Champion, and shall spill his blood and bring us the Darkness so beautiful." Does seem to speak to Moridin vs Rand.

[thisguy]

I just decided, I think Moridin dies to save Rand from Fain. I think somehow Rand is affected by this and is in that state of dead but not alive or whatever the quote is.

[OptimusPrime]

I doubt Moridin would succumb to the link. He'd probably have himself 13x13ed to bring back the nasty

[jwood01]

"And the Lord of the Evening shall face the Broken Champion, and shall spill his blood and bring us the Darkness so beautiful." Does seem to speak to Moridin vs Rand.

 

Ah, thanks Terez. i had forgotten about that. I now think you are right.

[skyfirex]

"And the Lord of the Evening shall face the Broken Champion, and shall spill his blood and bring us the Darkness so beautiful." Does seem to speak to Moridin vs Rand.

 

I'd like to offer up an alternative: The verse prior to the Broken Champion is the Broken Wolf (I voted for Rand in the poll) and his fall and destruction refers to his being the Champion of Light. The Fisher piece is not done changing sides, I think. Dark Rand then offers himself as a willing sacrifice to Moridin(an Abraham/Isaac motif). Both sides need Rand's blood spilled for victory, in accordance with both prophecies. So it's a stalemate even then. But what happens after is what will decide the outcome.

[Terez]

There are a few things missing from that scenario. The issue of his death is murkier than the issue of his resurrection, but we do have some clues.

[Sharaman]

Reversal,

Moridin goes nuts (I mean he is already, but completely irrationally nuts) on the slopes of Thakandar after the GLoD is safely sealed away.

LTT Heals him using his own rough version of Saidin Healing.

Moridin realises he's screwed up totally and kills off every rat and raven and DF still around in WoTland before drawing too much power and blasting Thakandar.into another dimension.

 

Everyone's happy but the loss of two key occupants of vital ecological niches sets off a long process where the world starts drowning in garbage.

In desperation, millennia down the line folks start researching how to resurrect ravens and rats as species

They discover that they need some new way to manipulate DNA.

Then this young, hawt researcher finds that in theory, there might a mysterious power which allows her to manipulate DNA in satisfactory ways.

But the main reservoir of this power lies in another dimension

She drills a Bore and ---