Aes Sedai and the White Tower

[Suttree]

The oaths are not because AS have some need to do so, it's because the world would have kicked all of their collective conniving asses if it was not somehow placated a little.

 

In between the Trolloc Wars and The War of the Hundred Years the Aes Sedai decided to show the world that their use of the One Power was not a threat...this is mentioned in TGH.

[Zentari]

The oaths are not because AS have some need to do so, it's because the world would have kicked all of their collective conniving asses if it was not somehow placated a little.

 

In between the Trolloc Wars and The War of the Hundred Years the Aes Sedai decided to show the world that their use of the One Power was not a threat...this is mentioned in TGH.

Yeah, and ? You might think that this is quite cynical of me but AS would say anything in order to save face.Of course they did so in order to show how grant they are and that they represent no threat. One could also argue that they would have gotten this if they were really trusted instead of playing their games and meddling.

[Suttree]

The oaths are not because AS have some need to do so, it's because the world would have kicked all of their collective conniving asses if it was not somehow placated a little.

 

In between the Trolloc Wars and The War of the Hundred Years the Aes Sedai decided to show the world that their use of the One Power was not a threat...this is mentioned in TGH.

Yeah, and ? You might think that this is quite cynical of me but AS would say anything in order to save face.Of course they did so in order to show how grant they are and that they represent no threat. One could also argue that they would have gotten this if they were really trusted instead of playing their games and meddling.

 

People seem to forget that their "games and meddling" are the main thing that has held the world together and pushed back the shadow since the breaking. Their methods may be suspect but they have done far more good than harm.

[Zentari]

 

People seem to forget that their "games and meddling" are the main thing that has held the world together and pushed back the shadow since the breaking. Their methods may be suspect but they have done far more good than harm.

No , their ability to combat that power channeling madman with the same kind of power was what held the world together.

[Puny]

The oaths are not because AS have some need to do so, it's because the world would have kicked all of their collective conniving asses if it was not somehow placated a little.

 

In between the Trolloc Wars and The War of the Hundred Years the Aes Sedai decided to show the world that their use of the One Power was not a threat...this is mentioned in TGH.

Yeah, and ? You might think that this is quite cynical of me but AS would say anything in order to save face.Of course they did so in order to show how grant they are and that they represent no threat. One could also argue that they would have gotten this if they were really trusted instead of playing their games and meddling.

 

People seem to forget that their "games and meddling" are the main thing that has held the world together and pushed back the shadow since the breaking. Their methods may be suspect but they have done far more good than harm.

 

But how we do know that.. the only one that say that, that I remeber are the Aes Sedai themselves. I can agree that they were helpful after the breaking.. but 2500 years later?

[jwood01]

The oaths are not because AS have some need to do so, it's because the world would have kicked all of their collective conniving asses if it was not somehow placated a little.

 

In between the Trolloc Wars and The War of the Hundred Years the Aes Sedai decided to show the world that their use of the One Power was not a threat...this is mentioned in TGH.

Yeah, and ? You might think that this is quite cynical of me but AS would say anything in order to save face.Of course they did so in order to show how grant they are and that they represent no threat. One could also argue that they would have gotten this if they were really trusted instead of playing their games and meddling.

 

People seem to forget that their "games and meddling" are the main thing that has held the world together and pushed back the shadow since the breaking. Their methods may be suspect but they have done far more good than harm.

 

The Aes Sedai have held the world together and pushed back the shadow? Really? Evidence please.

 

I wills tart a thread to debate this.

[Suttree]

The oaths are not because AS have some need to do so, it's because the world would have kicked all of their collective conniving asses if it was not somehow placated a little.

 

In between the Trolloc Wars and The War of the Hundred Years the Aes Sedai decided to show the world that their use of the One Power was not a threat...this is mentioned in TGH.

Yeah, and ? You might think that this is quite cynical of me but AS would say anything in order to save face.Of course they did so in order to show how grant they are and that they represent no threat. One could also argue that they would have gotten this if they were really trusted instead of playing their games and meddling.

 

People seem to forget that their "games and meddling" are the main thing that has held the world together and pushed back the shadow since the breaking. Their methods may be suspect but they have done far more good than harm.

 

The Aes Sedai have held the world together and pushed back the shadow? Really? Evidence please.

 

I wills tart a thread to debate this.

 

The evidence is in that the world survived The Breaking. With out Latra Posae Decume & co the world would be toast. RJ is on record with this.

 

No , their ability to combat that power channeling madman with the same kind of power was what held the world together.

 

I dare say their has been a good deal more planning or "meddling" as you say used than the OP in the years since the breaking.

[jwood01]

Suttree: "People seem to forget that their "games and meddling" are the main thing that has held the world together and pushed back the shadow since the breaking. Their methods may be suspect but they have done far more good than harm."

 

Tell that to Malkier. IMO, the Borderland nations have probably been the major force containing the shadow and protecting Randland from hordes of shadowspawn.

 

The White Tower's meddling has backfired on too many occasions. Plus, they wouldn't even acknowledge for the longest time that the Black Ajah existed in their midst.

[jwood01]

The oaths are not because AS have some need to do so, it's because the world would have kicked all of their collective conniving asses if it was not somehow placated a little.

 

In between the Trolloc Wars and The War of the Hundred Years the Aes Sedai decided to show the world that their use of the One Power was not a threat...this is mentioned in TGH.

Yeah, and ? You might think that this is quite cynical of me but AS would say anything in order to save face.Of course they did so in order to show how grant they are and that they represent no threat. One could also argue that they would have gotten this if they were really trusted instead of playing their games and meddling.

 

People seem to forget that their "games and meddling" are the main thing that has held the world together and pushed back the shadow since the breaking. Their methods may be suspect but they have done far more good than harm.

 

The Aes Sedai have held the world together and pushed back the shadow? Really? Evidence please.

 

I wills tart a thread to debate this.

 

The evidence is in that the world survived The Breaking. With out Latra Posae Decume & co the world would be toast. RJ is on record with this.

 

Yes, but what about the 2500 to 3000 years following that?

[Puny]

Suttree: "People seem to forget that their "games and meddling" are the main thing that has held the world together and pushed back the shadow since the breaking. Their methods may be suspect but they have done far more good than harm."

 

Tell that to Malkier. IMO, the Borderland nations have probably been the major force containing the shadow and protecting Randland from hordes of shadowspawn.

 

The White Tower's meddling has backfired on too many occasions. Plus, they wouldn't even acknowledge for the longest time that the Black Ajah existed in their midst.

 

And we dk how much the Shadow waited after the Breaking before it got back in business. We know that Ishy was meddling with Hawking and prolly across the Ocean too, and it is pointed out that the Borderlanders have been fighting the Shadow alone for a long time. Oki if the Aes Sedai did something to push back the Shadow:

 

¤ Gentled/killed crazy male Aes Sedai

¤ Brought a center of stability when the world was in chaos

¤ I can imagine some Greys stoping some wars

[Suttree]

Yes, but what about the 2500 to 3000 years following that?

 

Ok lets skip all the way forward to the Trolloc Wars. Who defeated the shadow? Do a little research on Rashima Kerenmosa.

[anotherfingolfin]

The oaths are not because AS have some need to do so, it's because the world would have kicked all of their collective conniving asses if it was not somehow placated a little.

 

In between the Trolloc Wars and The War of the Hundred Years the Aes Sedai decided to show the world that their use of the One Power was not a threat...this is mentioned in TGH.

Yeah, and ? You might think that this is quite cynical of me but AS would say anything in order to save face.Of course they did so in order to show how grant they are and that they represent no threat. One could also argue that they would have gotten this if they were really trusted instead of playing their games and meddling.

 

People seem to forget that their "games and meddling" are the main thing that has held the world together and pushed back the shadow since the breaking. Their methods may be suspect but they have done far more good than harm.

 

The Aes Sedai have held the world together and pushed back the shadow? Really? Evidence please.

 

I wills tart a thread to debate this.

 

The evidence is in that the world survived The Breaking. With out Latra Posae Decume & co the world would be toast. RJ is on record with this.

 

Yes, but what about the 2500 to 3000 years following that?

 

Yeah, I think the Aes Sedai referred to here are those who use the name in the current age. Not the ones pre-breaking.

[Suttree]

Yeah, I think the Aes Sedai referred to here are those who use the name in the current age. Not the ones pre-breaking.

 

If you follow the thread we were discussing the AS who instituted the 3 oaths...

[Puny]

The oaths are not because AS have some need to do so, it's because the world would have kicked all of their collective conniving asses if it was not somehow placated a little.

 

In between the Trolloc Wars and The War of the Hundred Years the Aes Sedai decided to show the world that their use of the One Power was not a threat...this is mentioned in TGH.

Yeah, and ? You might think that this is quite cynical of me but AS would say anything in order to save face.Of course they did so in order to show how grant they are and that they represent no threat. One could also argue that they would have gotten this if they were really trusted instead of playing their games and meddling.

 

People seem to forget that their "games and meddling" are the main thing that has held the world together and pushed back the shadow since the breaking. Their methods may be suspect but they have done far more good than harm.

 

The Aes Sedai have held the world together and pushed back the shadow? Really? Evidence please.

 

I wills tart a thread to debate this.

 

The evidence is in that the world survived The Breaking. With out Latra Posae Decume & co the world would be toast. RJ is on record with this.

 

Yes, but what about the 2500 to 3000 years following that?

 

Ok lets skip all the way forward to the Trolloc Wars. Who defeated the shadow? Do a little research on Rashima Kerenmosa.

Sure, Rashima had many victories in battle, but she led the WT armies, I doubt she was alone in fighting the trollocs. It was a war with nations against the trollocs, not just the AS.

[Suttree]

Ok lets skip all the way forward to the Trolloc Wars. Who defeated the shadow? Do a little research on Rashima Kerenmosa.

Sure, Rashima had many victories in battle, but she led the WT armies, I doubt she was alone in fighting the trollocs. It was a war with nations against the trollocs, not just the AS.

 

In the BWB two reasons are credited for the end of the Trolloc Wars. Baalzamon vanishing and Rashima Kerenmosa being raised to the Amrylin Seat. At the time this was far and away the most powerful position on the continent. She was the leader of the Ten Nations against the Shadow and formed the coalition that fought at the Battle of Maighande effectively ending the TW. She was the lights General in that war.

[Zentari]

 

I dare say their has been a good deal more planning or "meddling" as you say used than the OP in the years since the breaking.

Arguable on so many cases.Was the meddling wholly beneficial ? Or did they have their good and bad moments.Was the beneficial planning because they truly did so with that goal or was it because they were the only ones able to act on it ?

So many questions , so little answers . I still stand however that logically , if they had shown the world trustworthiness ,they wouldn't have need for oaths.

[jwood01]

I agree with Logain's Pet. It should be noted that the Aiel also defeated hordes of trollocs during the Trolloc Wars with zero help from the Aes Sedai.

 

Also, the disappearance of Ishy would've had a huge effect on the shadow mid-trolloc wars.

[jwood01]

To hopefully continue the debate about the Trolloc Wars:

 

Although Amyrlin Rashima Kerenmosa played a huge role in defeating the armies of shadowspawn to end the Trolloc Wars, we should also keep in mind that Amyrlin Tetsuan's meddling was a cause of the fall of Manetheren.

[yoniy0]

Be advised that I was asked to move the relevant posts to this thread. It might get confusing, so it's your call whether to wait while I do it or go ahead with the discussion.

 

EDIT: Done. If you're missing any posts, contact me.

[Suttree]

To hopefully continue the debate about the Trolloc Wars:

 

Although Amyrlin Rashima Kerenmosa played a huge role in defeating the armies of shadowspawn to end the Trolloc Wars, we should also keep in mind that Amyrlin Tetsuan's meddling was a cause of the fall of Manetheren.

 

Yes and she was stripped of her stole and stilled for her crimes by the Tower. Rashima Kerenmosa was the lights General, led the Ten Nations and pulled together the coalition that fought in the Battle of Maighande ending the TW. She may have been strong in the OP but it was her political skills holding Randland together that pushed back the shadow and saved the world.

[jwood01]

To hopefully continue the debate about the Trolloc Wars:

 

Although Amyrlin Rashima Kerenmosa played a huge role in defeating the armies of shadowspawn to end the Trolloc Wars, we should also keep in mind that Amyrlin Tetsuan's meddling was a cause of the fall of Manetheren.

 

Yes and she was stripped of her stole and stilled for her crimes by the Tower. Rashima Kerenmosa was the lights General, led the Ten Nations and pulled together the coalition that fought in the Battle of Maighande ending the TW. She may have been strong in the OP but it was her political skills holding Randland together that pushed back the shadow and saved the world.

 

With Ishy back asleep and the Randland armies adapting to fighting Trollocs, avoiding pitched battles, the Shadow would've been on the defensive anyway. Rashima Kerenmosa sounds badass and all, but I would guess that if she hadn't stepped up, someone else would've (not necessarily an Aes Sedai someone) and the shadow still would have been defeated. It may have taken longer, but the shadow would've still been defeated.

[Suttree]

To hopefully continue the debate about the Trolloc Wars:

 

Although Amyrlin Rashima Kerenmosa played a huge role in defeating the armies of shadowspawn to end the Trolloc Wars, we should also keep in mind that Amyrlin Tetsuan's meddling was a cause of the fall of Manetheren.

 

Yes and she was stripped of her stole and stilled for her crimes by the Tower. Rashima Kerenmosa was the lights General, led the Ten Nations and pulled together the coalition that fought in the Battle of Maighande ending the TW. She may have been strong in the OP but it was her political skills holding Randland together that pushed back the shadow and saved the world.

 

With Ishy back asleep and the Randland armies adapting to fighting Trollocs, avoiding pitched battles, the Shadow would've been on the defensive anyway. Rashima Kerenmosa sounds badass and all, but I would guess that if she hadn't stepped up, someone else would've (not necessarily an Aes Sedai someone) and the shadow still would have been defeated. It may have taken longer, but the shadow would've still been defeated.

 

Not likely, the Shadows armies were indeed thrown into confusion by Ishy back asleep. At the time though they had pushed as far south as present day Ebou Dar and had Tar Valon besieged. They were not even remotely on the defensive at this point. It was fourty years after being raised that she finally destroyed the seige of Tar Valon and then personally led a ten year campaign that pushed the shadow back. Sorry guys but there is no way around this one. The Battle of Maighande was called the most decisive battle(victory) since the War of the Shadow. This thing had all of Randland involved and the AS where at the helm.

[USURP888]

40 years after being raised and it took 10 years to push the shadow back..after their leader went back to sleep? From what I can tell it is Ishy going back to sleep that turned the tide of the war.

 

Whatever good the AS supposedly has done, the fact that they needed to institute the three oaths shows that Randland DOES NOT trust them anymore. The only inference I can see is that they used to be lying conniving bunch of women and the rulers and the people of Randland has had enough of them. We saw that in Seanchan, the people was so fed up with them that they actually cheered and thought it good when all channelers there were chained like dogs, maybe if the AS did not institute the three oaths in Randland something similar could've happened.

[Sleeper]

Useless meddlers for sure.

 

The argument can be made that in the past they were somewhat (and only somewhat) effective at helping fight the Shadow, but in the present-day WoT universe they are one of the single most pathetic organizations in existence. I know that's hyperbolic, but that's the way I feel. I can count on one hand the number of Aes Sedai I actually think have been competent and helpful in the overall scheme of things.

[yoniy0]

Can you? Let's try. Off the top of my head, and in no particular order: Moiraine, Siuan, Leane, Tamra, Gitara, Cadsuane, Pevara, Seane, Saerin, Yukiri, Tarna, Dosaine, Bera, Kiruna, Verin, Anaiya, Teslyn, Merise. Not to mention Nynaeve, Egwene and Elayne. and Theodorin and Faolin, to a lesser degree.

 

I'm sure I'm forgetting quite a few.