The Dark One will just be sealed

[Nightstrike]

Wotmania/Dragonmount Q&A - 9 December 2002

 

Q: Has the Padan Fain/Mordeth character been present in previous Ages, or is he unique to this particular Age?

RJ: He is unique to this particular Age. A very unique fellow, indeed. In some ways, you might say he has unwittingly side-stepped the Pattern.

Unique to this particular Age. In some ways... Unique to the Pattern of this Age. Which doesn't mean he isn't part of the Pattern. RJ said the only things outside the Pattern are the DO & the Creator - neither affected by the Pattern.

[Thorgan]

Fain needs some kind of importance in the plot though.

I can't imagine he'd just die like Sammael after some pew pew fighting.

[Mystica]

maybe the DO will simply absorb Mordeth, being as he (the DO) is the source of all evil, the manefistation of evil and the lord of evil. Mordeth being evil, may hate his master, but that doesn't change the fact that the DO IS his master. Darkness can not be defeated by more darkness. It only gains in strength by it. So personally I think that if there's a confrontation of the two, the DO will simply end up absorbing the evil of Mordeth and in doing so grow stronger in the process.

 

Not sure if I explain that properly, but it makes sense in my head

[herid]

Wotmania/Dragonmount Q&A - 9 December 2002

 

Q: Has the Padan Fain/Mordeth character been present in previous Ages, or is he unique to this particular Age?

RJ: He is unique to this particular Age. A very unique fellow, indeed. In some ways, you might say he has unwittingly side-stepped the Pattern.

Unique to this particular Age. In some ways... Unique to the Pattern of this Age. Which doesn't mean he isn't part of the Pattern. RJ said the only things outside the Pattern are the DO & the Creator - neither affected by the Pattern.

This simply says that Fain has never happened before and this is the first time around he appeared during all the turnings of the Wheel. yes, he is not outside the Great Pattern the way the DO and the Creator are but that does not matter IMO. RJ pretty much confirmed in that quote that Fain and his actions are not governed by the Pattern. He is a special case. There are no prophecies, foretellings, dreams or anything like that involving Fain. Min saw nothing around him. all those abilities read threads in the Pattern but they see nothing about Fain. He is his own man playing by his own rules and the Pattern won't direct his steps as it does with everybody else.

 

Lastly, as I said, that quote from BWB that nobody inside the Pattern can destroy the Wheel is contradicted by later developments in the book and therefore is not a proof of anything. Rand could definitely do it and he is certainly a part of the Pattern and a mortal, even if a very special one. But so is Fain. His powers have increased greatly over the course of the series and who knows what he'll be capable of by the time the final showdown arrives. Lanfear thought it possible to challenge the DO using Choedan Kal so she did not think him unkillable. Fain contemplates offing him too and doesn't think that would be impossible.

 

I'm not saying that Fain killing the DO is very likely--I consider it to be a pretty long shot, but neither do I consider it to be absolutely impossible as you claim.

 

 

 

maybe the DO will simply absorb Mordeth, being as he (the DO) is the source of all evil, the manefistation of evil and the lord of evil. Mordeth being evil, may hate his master, but that doesn't change the fact that the DO IS his master. Darkness can not be defeated by more darkness. It only gains in strength by it. So personally I think that if there's a confrontation of the two, the DO will simply end up absorbing the evil of Mordeth and in doing so grow stronger in the process.

 

Not sure if I explain that properly, but it makes sense in my head

 

The DO has long ago stopped being Fain's master. Nor is he the master of all evil in WoT. There is evil of Shadar Logoth and the evil of the DO. they are opposite and try to kill each other when in contact. RJ elaborated on this a number of times in interviews.

It has also been manifested a number of times in the books. Rand used it to cleanse saidin when he used Shadar Logoth to kill off the taint. Flinn used it too when healing the wound from Fain's dagger in rand's side.

 

It's possible that the Do will absorb Fain somehow but it's much more likely based on RJ's quotes and on how things have played out before that one of them will kill the other.

 

Netherlands tour April 2001, Leiden - Aan'allein reporting

 

 

DragonCon 3 September 2005 - Emma reporting

 

Q: How did Aginor sense the Shadar Logoth dagger?

RJ: If you remember the Cleansing....How many people have not read through the end of Winter's Heart?

[someone raises hand]

Audience: Cover your ears.

RJ: It is an effect of resonance. The evil that taints the dagger is the same evil that taints Shadar Logoth, and you might say it is diametrically opposite to the evil that is the taint on the male half of the One Power. Rand at one point in Shadar Logoth...he feels a pulsing, especially in the wounds on his side. There is a resonance created there; it is like positive and negative poles of evil, you might say.

Emma: So, it doesn't work by actual channeling or something?

RJ: No. You wouldn't...but you'd have to be close to it. It's not something you could sense from a great distance and use to track Padan Fain down.

 

Emma: Can you give some more details on how the taint was cleansed? I was sort of confused reading the book.

RJ: You don't think it's obvious?

Err, let's see. You have.. You're using both repulsion and attraction of opposites here. Repulsion of things that are opposite and repulsion of things that are the same. The Taint upon [saidin] as versus the conduit, which is made of saidar through which the saidin passes. The saidin and saidar, as men and women, are in many ways opposite. It repels one another. It is safe to make this conduit of saidar between saidin and Shadar Logoth, because there can be no mixing. As the eh.. as [saidin] passes through, as the taint passes through, the saidar actually repels it, pushes it away from [saidin]..., alright? Now, you have a taint on... the eh Source, the male half of the Source, you have the taint on Shadar Logoth. They're not the same, yet they are. The taint on Shadar Logoth did not come from the Dark One. The taint was created by humans, who believed that they must do whatever was necessary, anything that was necessary to defeat the Shadow. And because they would accept no limits to what they would do, to what could be done, to what needed to be done, they created their own destruction. Their evil is, or was, as great as that of the Dark One, but diametrically opposite. It is an evil created for the best of intentions, created for good intentions. So it is the opposite. So, this attraction created the conduit begins to pull the taint from [saidin] to siphon it off. Remember, it's always been described it's not at mixed all through [saidin], it is like a thin skin of rancidness, think of a thin skin of rancid oil floating on a pond, and if you get through it, you've got clean water, but you can't get through it without putting your hand in that oil. You're getting it on your hand... To attract one another because they are opposites, but because even being opposite, they have gone far enough around the circle, they act to destroy one another. You see, it's not opposites along a straight line. We're actually talking opposites along a circle. Continuing the motif of the Wheel of Time, if you will. So you've got two things that are both opposites and the same. That will both attract one another and negate one another.

Do you understand better now?

[Nightstrike]

This simply says that Fain has never happened before and this is the first time around he appeared during all the turnings of the Wheel.

Yes, I agree completely. The Fain/Mordeth amalgam has never happened before, and that's what RJ said.

 

yes, he is not outside the Great Pattern the way the DO and the Creator are but that does not matter IMO. RJ pretty much confirmed in that quote that Fain and his actions are not governed by the Pattern. He is a special case. There are no prophecies, foretellings, dreams or anything like that involving Fain. Min saw nothing around him. all those abilities read threads in the Pattern but they see nothing about Fain. He is his own man playing by his own rules and the Pattern won't direct his steps as it does with everybody else.

Didn't you just contradict yourself? RJ simply said that the Fain/Mordeth amalgam has never happened before.

 

Netherlands tour 7 April 2001, Elf Fantasy Fair - Aan'allein reporting

 

Kurafire: And the rest of the Shadowspawn?

RJ: What? Do they have souls you mean?

Kurafire: Yeah, and how do their threads work?

RJ: The threads work in the way, in the same way that the thread of any living thing works. It is part of the Pattern. They are not outside of the Pattern. Neither are the Forsaken. But the Pattern in a thing that is open, that's change. It is not a matter of the lives being forced necessarily. It's wide, you have the Pattern, the Heroes that are bound to the Wheel, they're not always heroes in the way of someone who rides in galloping with a sword, or carries out daring rescues. The people, the Heroes who are bound to the Wheel, are the corrective mechanisms. Human behavior is throwing the Pattern out. It's throwing the balance off. And the Wheel spins out the proper correctives. Put everything back in the balance. So not even the Forsaken are a part of that, they're not outside. The only things that are outside are the Creator and the Dark One. Neither affected by the Pattern.

->Fain/Mordeth existed before 2001. Fain is not outside. He is part of the Pattern. Fain can not affect the Dark One, since he is part of the Pattern. Every living thing in the Wheel has a thread in the Pattern, and Fain has a mortal body that is inside the Wheel/part of the Pattern, and so on. The Pattern is change, and now Fain is one of those changes. Tapestries looking alike from a distance, and closer up the more differencies you see. Fain/Mordeth amalgam is a difference, but probably not the "Mordeth" concept.

[herid]

This simply says that Fain has never happened before and this is the first time around he appeared during all the turnings of the Wheel.

Yes, I agree completely. The Fain/Mordeth amalgam has never happened before, and that's what RJ said.

 

yes, he is not outside the Great Pattern the way the DO and the Creator are but that does not matter IMO. RJ pretty much confirmed in that quote that Fain and his actions are not governed by the Pattern. He is a special case. There are no prophecies, foretellings, dreams or anything like that involving Fain. Min saw nothing around him. all those abilities read threads in the Pattern but they see nothing about Fain. He is his own man playing by his own rules and the Pattern won't direct his steps as it does with everybody else.

Didn't you just contradict yourself? RJ simply said that the Fain/Mordeth amalgam has never happened before.

in the first part of my post I was referring to the part of the quote I bolded. In the second part of the quote (which you seem to want to dismiss altogether) RJ said that Fain has unwittingly sidestepped the Pattern. what do you think that means?

 

Netherlands tour 7 April 2001, Elf Fantasy Fair - Aan'allein reporting

 

Kurafire: And the rest of the Shadowspawn?

RJ: What? Do they have souls you mean?

Kurafire: Yeah, and how do their threads work?

RJ: The threads work in the way, in the same way that the thread of any living thing works. It is part of the Pattern. They are not outside of the Pattern. Neither are the Forsaken. But the Pattern in a thing that is open, that's change. It is not a matter of the lives being forced necessarily. It's wide, you have the Pattern, the Heroes that are bound to the Wheel, they're not always heroes in the way of someone who rides in galloping with a sword, or carries out daring rescues. The people, the Heroes who are bound to the Wheel, are the corrective mechanisms. Human behavior is throwing the Pattern out. It's throwing the balance off. And the Wheel spins out the proper correctives. Put everything back in the balance. So not even the Forsaken are a part of that, they're not outside. The only things that are outside are the Creator and the Dark One. Neither affected by the Pattern.

->Fain/Mordeth existed before 2001. Fain is not outside. He is part of the Pattern. Fain can not affect the Dark One, since he is part of the Pattern. Every living thing in the Wheel has a thread in the Pattern, and Fain has a mortal body that is inside the Wheel/part of the Pattern, and so on.

this is going around in circles. as I said, this is immaterial. Rand is inside the Pattern too. he certainly had the means to destroy the Pattern and almost did it. yet, as you say, Rand has a body that is inside the Wheel/part of the Pattern, and so on.

[Nightstrike]

in the first part of my post I was referring to the part of the quote I bolded. In the second part of the quote (which you seem to want to dismiss altogether) RJ said that Fain has unwittingly sidestepped the Pattern. what do you think that means?

I'm reading the entire quote. That's the only way to read it. I've explained what I say it means. What it does not mean is that Fain isn't part of the Pattern anymore. We know that since RJ told us that there were only 2 things outside the Pattern (neither affected by the Pattern). Fain/Mordeth was not one of those 2 things that RJ mentioned.

 

 

this is going around in circles. as I said, this is immaterial. Rand is inside the Pattern too. he certainly had the means to destroy the Pattern and almost did it. yet, as you say, Rand has a body that is inside the Wheel/part of the Pattern, and so on.

Rand is part of the Pattern. He is affected by the Pattern and he can affect the Pattern. Rand can't affect the Dark One, though. That's something entirely different.

[herid]

in the first part of my post I was referring to the part of the quote I bolded. In the second part of the quote (which you seem to want to dismiss altogether) RJ said that Fain has unwittingly sidestepped the Pattern. what do you think that means?

I'm reading the entire quote. That's the only way to read it. I've explained what I say it means. What it does not mean is that Fain isn't part of the Pattern anymore. We know that since RJ told us that there were only 2 things outside the Pattern (neither affected by the Pattern). Fain/Mordeth was not one of those 2 things that RJ mentioned.

 

 

this is going around in circles. as I said, this is immaterial. Rand is inside the Pattern too. he certainly had the means to destroy the Pattern and almost did it. yet, as you say, Rand has a body that is inside the Wheel/part of the Pattern, and so on.

Rand is part of the Pattern. He is affected by the Pattern and he can affect the Pattern. Rand can't affect the Dark One, though. That's something entirely different.

ok, this seems to be your main argument then. that nobody inside the pattern (be it Rand or Fain) can affect anything outside it (the DO and the Creator). I definitely disagree with that. what are you basing this statement on? we are pretty clearly gearing up for a showdown between Rand and the DO at the end of aMoL. they've had such showdowns before. The DO can interact with those inside the Pattern through the bore. he can affect them. why is it that they can not affect him in return? LTT and the companions did just that. they touched the DO directly with saidin during the sealing.

[Nightstrike]

Netherlands tour 7 April 2001, Elf Fantasy Fair - Aan'allein reporting

 

Kurafire: And the rest of the Shadowspawn?

RJ: What? Do they have souls you mean?

Kurafire: Yeah, and how do their threads work?

RJ: The threads work in the way, in the same way that the thread of any living thing works. It is part of the Pattern. They are not outside of the Pattern. Neither are the Forsaken. But the Pattern in a thing that is open, that's change. It is not a matter of the lives being forced necessarily. It's wide, you have the Pattern, the Heroes that are bound to the Wheel, they're not always heroes in the way of someone who rides in galloping with a sword, or carries out daring rescues. The people, the Heroes who are bound to the Wheel, are the corrective mechanisms. Human behavior is throwing the Pattern out. It's throwing the balance off. And the Wheel spins out the proper correctives. Put everything back in the balance. So not even the Forsaken are a part of that, they're not outside. The only things that are outside are the Creator and the Dark One. Neither affected by the Pattern.

I'm basing on what RJ told us in no uncertain terms. LTT didn't affect the Dark One himself/itself. They affected the Bore. Fain probably can't affect the Bore (although I'm not 100% sure about that), but he most certainly can't affect the Dark One himself/itself. Fain/Mordeth will never replace the Dark One, kill him, or anything like that.

[herid]

Netherlands tour 7 April 2001, Elf Fantasy Fair - Aan'allein reporting

 

Kurafire: And the rest of the Shadowspawn?

RJ: What? Do they have souls you mean?

Kurafire: Yeah, and how do their threads work?

RJ: The threads work in the way, in the same way that the thread of any living thing works. It is part of the Pattern. They are not outside of the Pattern. Neither are the Forsaken. But the Pattern in a thing that is open, that's change. It is not a matter of the lives being forced necessarily. It's wide, you have the Pattern, the Heroes that are bound to the Wheel, they're not always heroes in the way of someone who rides in galloping with a sword, or carries out daring rescues. The people, the Heroes who are bound to the Wheel, are the corrective mechanisms. Human behavior is throwing the Pattern out. It's throwing the balance off. And the Wheel spins out the proper correctives. Put everything back in the balance. So not even the Forsaken are a part of that, they're not outside. The only things that are outside are the Creator and the Dark One. Neither affected by the Pattern.

I'm basing on what RJ told us in no uncertain terms. LTT didn't affect the Dark One himself/itself. They affected the Bore. Fain probably can't affect the Bore (although I'm not 100% sure about that), but he most certainly can't affect the Dark One himself/itself. Never replace the Dark One, kill him, or anything like that.

that quote does not say that nobody from inside the Pattern can affect those outside the Pattern. It simply says that the Pattern doesn't govern those outside which is a different thing. But the Bore allows interaction both ways. that's spelled explicitly in the books. LTT mentions to Rand that they touched the DO (and not just the Bore) directly during the sealing.

 

Lews Therin! Rand snapped in his mind. What do we do? How did you seal the Bore last time?

It didn't work, Lews Therin whispered. We used saidin, but we touched it to the Dark One. It was the only way! Something has to touch him, something to close the gap, but he was able to taint it. The seal was weak!

-tGS, Ch 22

 

and of course, there are various prophecies indicating that there will be a direct showdown between Rand and the DO at the end of the LB.

[Nightstrike]

that quote does not say that nobody from inside the Pattern can affect those outside the Pattern. It simply says that the Pattern doesn't govern those outside which is a different thing. But the Bore allows interaction both ways. that's spelled explicitly in the books. LTT mentions to Rand that they touched the DO (and not just the Bore) directly during the sealing.

If they are living creatures with a thread in the Pattern (just like every stone in a wall has a thread in the Pattern), then they are part of the Pattern. Since neither the Dark One nor the Creator are affected by the Pattern, then the rest gives itself. The quote says that the Pattern has no influence over the Dark One. Fain/Mordeth has/have threads in Pattern=are part of the Pattern. So, yes, that quote does indeed say that noone inside (and of) the Pattern can affect the Dark One.

 

Lews Therin! Rand snapped in his mind. What do we do? How did you seal the Bore last time?

It didn't work, Lews Therin whispered. We used saidin, but we touched it to the Dark One. It was the only way! Something has to touch him, something to close the gap, but he was able to taint it. The seal was weak!

-tGS, Ch 22

 

and of course, there are various prophecies indicating that there will be a direct showdown between Rand and the DO at the end of the LB.

That's a mad man talking, and it does not even say that they have to affect the Dark One in any way. One does not immediately follow upon the other. But we already know (thanks to RJ) that the DO isn't affected by the Pattern - LTT had a thread in the Pattern & was a part of the Pattern. Had LTT affected the Dark One in any way, then the Dark One would have been affected by what goes on in the Pattern. Noone coming from within the Pattern can kill the Dark One, since that would mean that the Dark One was affected by the Pattern.

 

How would Fain even come face to face with the Dark One? The Dark One does not even have a physical body, and he is outside the Wheel. Had he been inside, then it would be game over for Fain/Mordeth, and everybody else. Except the Dark One, of course. He would outlive them all, if he gained full access.

[Byzantine279]

No, he isn't Mystica, the Shadar Logoth evil is not the same as the DO's evil, it resonates with it and is just as horrible, but it is also the polar opposite, which is why they are drawn together and annihilate one another, it is similar to matter and anti-matter, they are amazingly similar, yet if they touch both are destroyed. Remember though, Fain isn't just Shadar Logoth's evil, he also has a part of the Do's evil in him, and that is what makes him unique, he is a fusion of two powers that should never be able to co exist.

 

Also, as I have been reminded many times, there is a vast difference between the wheel and the Pattern. The pattern is the fabric of existence, it is everything. The wheel is the "intelligent" force behind the pattern that does the weaving. Though I am unsure of just how much influence the wheel has on the pattern (It doesn't seem to control everything, otherwise the DO would never have any real chance of winning) it can be assumed that Fain has sidestepped his role in existence, and has freed his thread from the wheel, and has something unique to him in the WoT: Free will. (why does the only example of true free will have to be wasted on someone as insane as him?)

 

Nightstrike: There is no proof that something inside the pattern can affect something outside it, and we know for certain that the opposite direction could occur. I find it interesting that the way he responded to a question about if the DO could be killed with Balefire was that the amount required would destroy everything, which indicates that it is in fact possible, both that the DO can die and that something inside the pattern can affect something outside it (The pattern does rule over the region outside it, but that doesn't mean that the pattern can't kick back).

 

The pattern can be destroyed from within, but not by a thread, rather with a use of Saidar or Saidin, which appear to exist parallel to the pattern, or perhaps it is simply the side-effect of balefire that can cause it, but the apttern has come very close to destruction twice now, once in the AOL, and then during VoG.

[WhiskyJack]

Wheel has limited control over people's choices. Hence the need for Tav'eren to correct those "mistakes". Also RJ has said that in some ways, Fain has side-stepped the pattern. We don't know what those "ways" are, but keep that in mind. He didn't say that Fain is not part of pattern anymore.

[WhiskyJack]

Nightstrike: There is no proof that something inside the pattern can affect something outside it, and we know for certain that the opposite direction could occur. I find it interesting that the way he responded to a question about if the DO could be killed with Balefire was that the amount required would destroy everything, which indicates that it is in fact possible, both that the DO can die and that something inside the pattern can affect something outside it (The pattern does rule over the region outside it, but that doesn't mean that the pattern can't kick back).

 

 

 

And who actually can produce the amount of bale-fire required to destroy all realities?

 

And people inside the pattern affect the pattern all the time. It's called making choices. Also there is balefire. What no one inside the pattern can touch is the Wheel itself.

 

By the way, no one inside the pattern can affect ALL of pattern. Randland is not the only reality. Rand could not have destroyed moon or universe or parallel universes stacked against each other. Yes, they are all part of "pattern". So pattern is pretty much safe from one person's outrage.

[Eichhörnchen]

maybe the DO will simply absorb Mordeth, being as he (the DO) is the source of all evil, the manefistation of evil and the lord of evil. Mordeth being evil, may hate his master, but that doesn't change the fact that the DO IS his master. Darkness can not be defeated by more darkness. It only gains in strength by it. So personally I think that if there's a confrontation of the two, the DO will simply end up absorbing the evil of Mordeth and in doing so grow stronger in the process.

 

Not sure if I explain that properly, but it makes sense in my head

 

 

This makes no sense. Mordeth more than any creature, creation or being in existence loathes the Shadow and the DO with an intensity that has no equal. For Mordeth and Aridhol no price was too high to eliminate the shadow even if it meant becoming harder, tougher and more unforgiving than the Shadow itself. It's why Shadar Logoth is a field of death and a graveyard for all creatures of the night or shadowspawn. Or why is Mordeth slaughtering all Shadowspawn on his march north?

 

To imagine such a being doing the bidding of the DO? You would have more luck bending Rand to bend knee to the DO, at least Rand doesn't hate the Shadow with every fiber of his being. He merely opposes the Shadow based on his destiny, ideological grounds and sense of purpose; not unadulterated hatred.

 

In truth, if anything Mordeth will probably play a pivotal role in the demise of the DO. He is a wildcard, a third player, a creature that is more anti-shadow than the actual champion of Light himself. However held back by none of the scruples exhibited by the Light. Sometimes to defeat an ancient evil you need a new evil.

[Mystica]

I get what you're saying, Eichhörnen and others and I know RJ mentioned their opposite and mutual-exclusive existence. What I have been mulling over for some time privately, is the phylosophical idea that evil can not be killed by evil. In the Neverending Story this idea is simplistically represented by the destruction of the Evil Queen who has no heart. She is said to be 'hollow'. All efforts to destroy her with conventional means (aka: fighting her) have failed. The only thing that succeeded in the end was for the protagonist to bring her in contact with the exact opposit of her hollowness, namely he filled her up with wishing her to have a heart.

 

Another thing that made me mull this over, is that it was established that the DO is the Creator's equal and direct opposit. And there is a difference between 'Fain' the mortal human (no matter how corrupted) and 'Mordeth' the immortal energy born from the hatred of mortal humans. As some of you have pointed out, Fain (even while being possessed by Mordeth) remains a part of the Pattern. ONLY the Creator and the DO stand outside the Pattern. Therefore I find it strange that so many people attribute powers to Mordeth that are akin or even above those of the DO and thus making Mordeth the DO's nemisis. If he were truly that much of a threat to the DO, more even than Rand, it stands to reason that the DO would focuss on Mordeth's destruction and come back to the light forces later since in this setup Mordeth is the more imminent threat. But the DO doesn't do that that we can see.

 

Meanwhile, Mordeth, being filled of this hatred towards the Shadow, is more focussedon killing Rand than the DO. Shadowspawn are no more killed in Shadar Logoth than any human walking there. They are equally chased and killed by the mist once it is allerted to their presence. That shadowspawn fear the place is no wonder, since very little in the world has an equal destructive power against them while being unable to fight back against it. The fiercest, most deadly warriors from any human culture still always fall short to the deadly force of the mist in Shadar Logoth so there is no comparison in the way of one being more freightening than the other in the minds of the shadowspawn. It's logical that this would be Shadar Logoth. But that doesn't necessarily mean that Mordeth's hatred is higher towards them than towards any human. The hatred of Mordeth was born from a hatred against the Shadow, but has since then grown in pure hatred towards everything. He even hates himself and delights in his own pain at times. It's a self-destructive force that destroys purely for the pleasure of destruction. The DO has a plan to dominate, Mordeth doesn't want to dominate. He merely wants to kill.

 

I'm not saying that Mordeth will be doing the DO's bidding, that is impossible. But a person can serve his enemy's purpose even while completely opposing that enemy. Again, this is from a phylosophical point of view. Evil is served in many ways, and one consistency in evil is that it is as destructive to the one serving it as to those opposing it. (Tinker's phylosophy). It doesn't matter 'who' is harmed, so long as the 'deed' of doing evil is done.

 

I believe (and perhaps it is wishfull thinking, I grant you fully) that this line of thinking 'sometimes to defeat evil a greater or newer evil is needed' is precisely the danger the Tinkers' phylosophy warns against. For to replace one evil with another is not serving the Light in any way. You can not defeat darkness by adding more darkness to it (or by replacing it with another darkness). The only way to defeat it is by lighting a light in to it (symbolical).

 

And that is why I'm playing with the idea that the two will merge and then be defeated by the confrontation of the 'light' (again symbolically). The light being the opposit of the essence of evil. Love versus hate, that sort of thing.

[Nightstrike]

Nightstrike: There is no proof that something inside the pattern can affect something outside it, and we know for certain that the opposite direction could occur. I find it interesting that the way he responded to a question about if the DO could be killed with Balefire was that the amount required would destroy everything, which indicates that it is in fact possible, both that the DO can die and that something inside the pattern can affect something outside it (The pattern does rule over the region outside it, but that doesn't mean that the pattern can't kick back).

There's the quote from RJ that says that the DO isn't affected by the Pattern, and that the only two things outside (not of the Pattern) are the Creator and the Dark One.

 

The pattern can be destroyed from within, but not by a thread, rather with a use of Saidar or Saidin, which appear to exist parallel to the pattern, or perhaps it is simply the side-effect of balefire that can cause it, but the apttern has come very close to destruction twice now, once in the AOL, and then during VoG.

Maybe the Pattern can be destroyed, but we're talking about the Dark One. The Dark One isn't affected by the Pattern, so the Dark One will survive the destruction of the Pattern.

 

The Gathering Storm Book Tour, Borders Dallas 14 November 2009 - Claireducky reporting

Claire: (comment regarding the thread on Dragonmount where some are arguing that by balefiring Graendal's palace, the compulsion disappeared since there'd never had been a palace in the first place, and others are arguing that it doesn't work that way, objects don't have threads).

 

Brandon: Everything has a thread, not just souls. Even a stone in a wall has a thread in the Pattern.

Fain had threads in the Pattern, Mordeth had threads in the Pattern, Shadar Logoth had threads in the Pattern, and Fain/Mordeth amalgam has threads in the Pattern.

[WhiskyJack]

Creation in RJ's world: Consider a soap bubble that contains infinite number of soap bubbles sitting next to each other. One of these small bubbles is universe of Randlanders. Pattern is nothing more than fancy word for matter/energy. Each small bubble is small part of big pattern, the one being weaved by the wheel itself. Now wheel is just a replacement term for creator. Since RJ has borrowed ideas from various religions, all this has become very confusing. The difference between wheel and Creator is that while Creator can go "hulk smash", wheel is more subtle. But for our purpose, wheel is the Creator. Now wheel exists out side the big bubble.And so does the Creator and the DO. Everything inside the big bubble is part of pattern. The bore was a hole through dimensions.

[herid]

that quote does not say that nobody from inside the Pattern can affect those outside the Pattern. It simply says that the Pattern doesn't govern those outside which is a different thing. But the Bore allows interaction both ways. that's spelled explicitly in the books. LTT mentions to Rand that they touched the DO (and not just the Bore) directly during the sealing.

If they are living creatures with a thread in the Pattern (just like every stone in a wall has a thread in the Pattern), then they are part of the Pattern. Since neither the Dark One nor the Creator are affected by the Pattern, then the rest gives itself. The quote says that the Pattern has no influence over the Dark One. Fain/Mordeth has/have threads in Pattern=are part of the Pattern. So, yes, that quote does indeed say that noone inside (and of) the Pattern can affect the Dark One.

 

as I said, I'm certain you are misinterpreting this quote and it doesn't imply what you claim. worse, your interpretation is contradicted by inbook developments.

Lews Therin! Rand snapped in his mind. What do we do? How did you seal the Bore last time?

It didn't work, Lews Therin whispered. We used saidin, but we touched it to the Dark One. It was the only way! Something has to touch him, something to close the gap, but he was able to taint it. The seal was weak!

-tGS, Ch 22

 

and of course, there are various prophecies indicating that there will be a direct showdown between Rand and the DO at the end of the LB.

That's a mad man talking,

 

 

No. There is nothing least bit mad in that particular exchange. we've seen LT 's mad ravings. Here he is quite lucid and is giving straight up info. Moreover, I'm sure that this particular bit of info will be important to the sealing and it will be Fain, not saidin or saidar that will be touched directly to the DO during the sealing. This happened twice in the books already--during the cleansing and when Flinn healed Rand.

 

Also, the prophecies are quite clear that there will be a direct showdown. The Dark Prophecy for example:

 

And then shall the Lord of the Evening come. And He shall take our

eyes, for our souls shall bow before Him, and he shall take our skin, for

our flesh shall serve Him, and He shall take our lips, for only Him will

we praise. And the Lord of the Evening shall face the Broken Champion,

and shall spill his blood and bring us the Darkness so beautiful.

 

 

 

 

and it does not even say that they have to affect the Dark One in any way.

 

This is semantics. they touched the DO directly with saidin. This already means affecting. It also means that there was something to touch which according to you is impossible seeing how the DO is outside the Pattern and has no body and all that.

 

 

One does not immediately follow upon the other. But we already know (thanks to RJ) that the DO isn't affected by the Pattern - LTT had a thread in the Pattern & was a part of the Pattern. Had LTT affected the Dark One in any way, then the Dark One would have been affected by what goes on in the Pattern. Noone coming from within the Pattern can kill the Dark One, since that would mean that the Dark One was affected by the Pattern.

 

How would Fain even come face to face with the Dark One? The Dark One does not even have a physical body, and he is outside the Wheel. Had he been inside, then it would be game over for Fain/Mordeth, and everybody else. Except the Dark One, of course. He would outlive them all, if he gained full access.

That's a different question. I don't know how exactly this will happen. There is access both ways through the Bore. the DO is reaching through the Bore to touch those inside the Pattern. LT and the companions reached out through the Bore to touch the DO. Something like that will come into play somehow. There is a vision of Min of Rand fighting faceless darkness with a sword. That could be it. There are other theories out there how that could happen.

[Nightstrike]

Netherlands tour 7 April 2001, Elf Fantasy Fair - Aan'allein reporting

RJ: The threads work in the way, in the same way that the thread of any living thing works. It is part of the Pattern. They are not outside of the Pattern.

...

The only things that are outside are the Creator and the Dark One. Neither affected by the Pattern.

 

The Gathering Storm Book Tour, Borders Dallas 14 November 2009 - Claireducky reporting

Brandon: Everything has a thread, not just souls. Even a stone in a wall has a thread in the Pattern.

 

I say those two quotes combined is all we need to say for sure that Fain/Mordeth amalgam can never affect the Creator or the Dark One. The same can be said of Rand, Moridin, Slayer, Mat, Tuon and everybody else with threads in the Pattern. Nothing & noone coming from within the Pattern can affect either of those 2 Beings.

[The Fallen One]

Nightstrike, if nothing inside the Pattern can affect the Dark One, how did Saidin touch him to create a seal in AoL? It directly says that Saidin touching the Dark One is the reason that Saidin became tainted in the books. I believe it was from the "Lews Therin" voice in Rand's head. You can argue that it could have just been the maddness talking, but I would say that it was pretty safe to assume that most of the things that Rand's Lew Therin pesonality told him in a calm manner were at least mostly true.

 

On top of that, while Rand might not have a full out battle with the Dark One, I am assuming there will be at least some direct contact between either Rand and Company's weaves(or some sort of buffer like Fain or Callandor) and the DO during the sealing. From my understanding that means something from the Pattern has to be able affect the Dark One (even if in a small way) or he would essentially be unstopable.

[WhiskyJack]

Nightstrike, I don't think that's exactly true. I think pattern doesn't intentionally "interact" with beings that exist outside the great pattern but some of the threads of pattern are living people who have power and will to go against the will of Wheel itself. If there was no Bore, then yes,it's impossible for someone from inside the pattern to interact with DO. I think that's what RJ was alluding to.

[Nightstrike]

Nightstrike, if nothing inside the Pattern can affect the Dark One, how did Saidin touch him to create a seal in AoL?

It didn't affect the Dark One. It affected the Bore.

 

It directly says that Saidin touching the Dark One is the reason that Saidin became tainted in the books. I believe it was from the "Lews Therin" voice in Rand's head. You can argue that it could have just been the maddness talking, but I would say that it was pretty safe to assume that most of the things that Rand's Lew Therin pesonality told him in a calm manner were at least mostly true.

It certainly was what Brandon thought that LTT was likely to think, but it does not say that it affected the dark one in any way.

 

I think pattern doesn't intentionally "interact" with beings that exist outside the great pattern but some of the threads of pattern are living people who have power and will to go against the will of Wheel itself.

The Wheel spins out the proper corrections when people mess things up. But other than that, I still agree with what you just said.

[WhiskyJack]

Pattern is like a "barrier" that basically separated the prison of DO from people living inside it (Big bubble shielding smaller bubbles). At some point, people in AoL were able to find a "thinness" in that shield and were able to sense DO inside his/her/it's prison (Badly designed prison I bet;)). Bore is nothing more than an inter-dimensional hole from small bubbles to a "prison outside" of big bubble.

[Nightstrike]

If there was no Bore, then yes,it's impossible for someone from inside the pattern to interact with DO. I think that's what RJ was alluding to.

RJ & the readers were aware of the Bore, so it doesn't change anything. The Dark One & the Creator aren't affected by the Pattern. Period.