Dark Prophecy

[Guest jradkin]

"The Broken Wolf, the one whom Death has known, shall fall and be consumed by the Midnight Towers."

 

What if the Broken Wolf is really Slayer?

 

We know that when a wolf is taken by a Darkhound, the wolf's soul becomes twisted and it becomes a Darkhound. So what happens when a Wolfbrother is taken by a Darkhound? Logically, it should produce a dark version of a Wolfbrother. We know that Slayer shares a lot of the Talents in Tel'aran'rhiod with Perrin and definitely has some sort of direct antagonistic relationship to the wolves. If Isam/Luc is a fallen Wolfbrother, then that would absolutely make him a "broken wolf."

 

We also know that Moridin is the only Forsaken who has a sustained relationship with Slayer. Moridin's name means Death, so Slayer is also a perfect candidate for the "one whom Death has known."

 

The problem with this theory is the next sentence in the prophecy: "And his destruction shall bring fear and sorrow to the hearts of men, and shall shake their very will itself."

If Slayer is the Broken Wolf, and his falling will bring sorrow to the hearts of men, it must be the case that Slayer will somehow be redeemed and end up on the side of the Light (just in time to die). What if Perrin somehow saves Slayer's soul. Luc and Isam were not evil before they disappeared, so something happened to them to make evil and force their souls into one body.

 

As a final note the previous Dark Prophecy that we have in its entirety, the Blood calls Blood prophecy in The Great Hunt, mentions Slayer. Clearly, Slayer is an important figure in Dark Prophecy.

[UncleButcher1980]

That's an interesting one but I don't think so. Even if Slayer were to return to the Light I don't think his subsequent death would 'shake their very will itself'. Slayer has done some pretty awful stuff and it would take a lot for him to go, for want of a better phrase, from zero to hero.

[mb]

Encyclopaedia site tells that the Broken Wolf is Perrin.

Also, the lines seem to refer to the phrase directly before which mentions "Fallen Blacksmith".

 

The lines seem to refer the Wolf King prophecy of Karaethon Cycle.

[Kiriath Til Asdod]

And his destruction shall bring fear and sorrow to the hearts of men, and shall shake their very will itself.

 

Note that "his destruction" could be read as possessive or in other words: the destruction he causes. It doesn't say his death.

 

I don't agree with the Slayer idea mostly because I can't put my head around the "...be consumed by the midnight towers" part. Moridin owns Slayer, none of the other Chosen will touch him. Otherwise everything else seems to fit.

 

The problem with any prophecy is that it isn't necessarily linear. Line 2 doesn't have to directly follow line 1. It can be twenty lines later or even before line one.

[mb]

Encyclopaedia speculates that midnight towers are the Seanchan.

[MatrixM]

I couldn't really follow this prophecy because of all the different names. Did this prophecy fail to come true, in the end?

[mb]

Actually, the fulfillment seems yet to come.

[W_A]

I think that it's Lan, because it doesn't seem to make sense for Perrin because Death hasn't known him yet, while Lan basically resigned himself to death. Also, it doesn't seem to make sense for it to switch names in consecutive sentences unless it was referring to someone new.

[yoniy0]

Luc and Isam were not evil before they disappeared

Actually, you don't know that. Isam was just a baby, but his mother was involved in DF schemes and he was raised by trollocs, so... And we know nothing about Luc, he may well have been a DF before he vanished.

[Terez]

Encyclopaedia site tells that the Broken Wolf is Perrin.

Also, the lines seem to refer to the phrase directly before which mentions "Fallen Blacksmith".

Encyclopaedia speculates that midnight towers are the Seanchan.

Technically, the Encyclopaedia only footnoted it with a question - 'Does this mean Perrin will fall to the Seanchan?' Though the Encyclopaedia does sometimes state theories as facts, in this case they didn't. Brandon has essentially confirmed that the midnight towers in Egwene's dream refer to the Forsaken. This connection is why Graendal assumes (along with Moridin, apparently) that the prophecy means Perrin will die by their hands. I think that the Encyclopaedia is right to question this assumption - Moridin's comment about many interpretations seems to be a big clue - but I would question their interpretation of Broken Wolf rather than their interpretation of Midnight Towers. I think the Seanchan are certainly a possibility, but the Forsaken seem more likely to me, and specifically Moridin (their leader and representative, as Egwene's dream shows). Ishamael was probably behind the creation of the Towers of Midnight in Seanchan - there are thirteen of them, and it's probably not coincidental - and they do not really represent the Seanchan so well as other things do.

 

The lines seem to refer the Wolf King prophecy of Karaethon Cycle.

I don't see how, aside from the wolf bit.

 

I couldn't really follow this prophecy because of all the different names. Did this prophecy fail to come true, in the end?

The dark prophecies must be fulfilled, just as the light prophecies must be. I discuss this in some detail here, along with why I think the Broken Wolf has to be Rand.

[MatrixM]

Yes, I see. Thank you, Terez.

 

EDIT: typo

[Terhan]

I had a couple of thoughts when reading this prophecy: "In that day, when the One-Eyed Fool travels the halls of mourning, and the First Among Vermin lifts his hand to bring freedom to Him who will Destroy, the last days of the Fallen Blacksmith's pride shall come. Yea, and the Broken Wolf, the one whom Death has known, shall fall and be consumed by the Midnight Towers. And his destruction shall bring fear and sorrow to the hearts of men, and shall shake their very will itself."

 

I think it is agreed that the One-Eyed Fool is Mat. Moreover, it seems fairly obvious to me that the halls of mourning are 'Finnland. The First Among Vermin is Rand, about to lift his hand to bring freedom to Him who will Destroy (about to break the remaining seals). But these aren't the subjects of this line of prophecy; these only set the time-frame. The message of the first sentence is: "the last days of the Fallen Blacksmith's pride shall come". I (as many of you) think that this is Perrin finally accepting the wolf and accepting his role, etc, etc. The next sentence, while it may seem that it just meanders on to another topic (because it introduces another name, "the Broken Wolf") is still talking about Perrin, it only calls him by another name. We see this a lot with prophecy and the like. For instance, the Dark One may be mentioned by three or four different names in a single prophecy, or a single sentence, for that matter.

 

Anyway, it goes on to say that: "[he] shall fall and be consumed by the Midnight Towers. And his destruction shall bring fear..." etc, etc, etc. My thought is this, what if Perrin is somehow turned to the Shadow (perhaps against his will)? Then he could be let loose upon the world, and his destruction (that he causes) would bring fear and sorrow, etc. Perrin being turned to the Shadow and fighting for them would certainly shake the will of many men. Many important men (and women), at that.

 

Just a thought. I'm not sure about the "the one whom Death has known" part. Moridin has known Perrin, since the beginning. But I dunno if that's enough. That specific part makes me think of the Luc/Isam theory for the "Broken Wolf", as Death has known him (both Moridin-death, and real-death). But it's the only part that fits for him.

 

Have a good one!

[Terez]

Apparently only channelers can be turned to the Shadow against their will. Not sure what that says about Luc, but it may be that there is an exception with the method that was used there, which probably requires for them to be merged at Shayol Ghul (even more difficult to set up than 13x13 presumably).

[Terhan]

Apparently only channelers can be turned to the Shadow against their will. Not sure what that says about Luc, but it may be that there is an exception with the method that was used there, which probably requires for them to be merged at Shayol Ghul (even more difficult to set up than 13x13 presumably).

 

Thanks for the reply.

 

Yes, I know that the 13x13 trick is only viable against channelers because the ability makes them vulnerable. But as you yourself just eluded to, there may be other ways to turn a person against their will. These theoretical procedures may be extremely difficult, but what difficulty would be too costly when the end result is so devastating? Anyway, it is only a few thoughts. This isn't a theory I stand vehemently behind. But I think it is worth considering. I think it may be the "...his destruction will bring fear..." that is making me think more deeply into this prophecy. Because "his destruction" could mean so many things; so many interesting possibilities. It could mean the subject's death. It could mean the subject being destroyed emotionally (perhaps everyone he loved taken from him, etc.) It could mean (as I mentioned) the destruction he causes. So many interesting possibilities, but, I suppose that's what makes some of these prophecies so fun to theorize about.

[cynic]

"The Broken Wolf, the one whom Death has known, shall fall and be consumed by the Midnight Towers."

 

What if the Broken Wolf is really Slayer?

 

We know that when a wolf is taken by a Darkhound, the wolf's soul becomes twisted and it becomes a Darkhound. So what happens when a Wolfbrother is taken by a Darkhound? Logically, it should produce a dark version of a Wolfbrother. We know that Slayer shares a lot of the Talents in Tel'aran'rhiod with Perrin and definitely has some sort of direct antagonistic relationship to the wolves. If Isam/Luc is a fallen Wolfbrother, then that would absolutely make him a "broken wolf."

 

We also know that Moridin is the only Forsaken who has a sustained relationship with Slayer. Moridin's name means Death, so Slayer is also a perfect candidate for the "one whom Death has known."

 

The problem with this theory is the next sentence in the prophecy: "And his destruction shall bring fear and sorrow to the hearts of men, and shall shake their very will itself."

If Slayer is the Broken Wolf, and his falling will bring sorrow to the hearts of men, it must be the case that Slayer will somehow be redeemed and end up on the side of the Light (just in time to die). What if Perrin somehow saves Slayer's soul. Luc and Isam were not evil before they disappeared, so something happened to them to make evil and force their souls into one body.

 

As a final note the previous Dark Prophecy that we have in its entirety, the Blood calls Blood prophecy in The Great Hunt, mentions Slayer. Clearly, Slayer is an important figure in Dark Prophecy.

 

Interesting thought. Remember that Slayer is some sort of Luc and Isam combination - and Isam is Lan's cousin. In the second book Moirane doesn't want Lan to hear the dark prophecy splattered on the walls of the keep's dungeons just because of that.

Maybe killing Slayer in his Isam version, in front on Lan (who's flying the Golden Crane) destroys him, and crumbles Lan's attack on Tarwin's gap.

[Terhan]

Interesting thought. Remember that Slayer is some sort of Luc and Isam combination - and Isam is Lan's cousin. In the second book Moirane doesn't want Lan to hear the dark prophecy splattered on the walls of the keep's dungeons just because of that.

Maybe killing Slayer in his Isam version, in front on Lan (who's flying the Golden Crane) destroys him, and crumbles Lan's attack on Tarwin's gap.

 

Interesting idea. And while I know we are bound to (and should) see some events and moments when the Shadow scores big victories over the Light, I really hope the Malkieri who are (finally) together and fighting under the Golden Crane don't get wiped out on us. That would be way too George R.R. Martin for me. It would be like George setting up the whole King in the North thing and making me like them so much and then completely crapping on them. I hated it. I both hate and love a Song of Ice and Fire. I just love Wheel of Time, and I'd like it to stay that way. q=

[mb]

Compulsion might turn a non-channeler against his/her will. No other method revealed up through Gathering Storm.

 

 

In relation to "Broken Wolf" likely being Perrin; another standza mentions "Broken Champion" which seems to be Rand.

[Duskfire]

I personally think the Broken Wolf is Lan. "And his destruction shall bring fear and sorrow to the hearts of men, and shall shake their very will itself." I cant see that anyone would really care if Slayer were to die. Lan on the other hand is basically a living legend, especially among the Borderlanders, the Aiel and other Warders. His death would be a massive loss that would be felt by basically every major character as well. And he definetly knows death, having been raised from birth to fight the Shadow.

 

Rand is already referred to as the Broken champion as well as the First Among Vermin. Would be weird for him to be also named as the Broken Wolf.

[Terez]

Lan is probably next most convincing to me aside from Rand. I just think Rand is more convincing, and I don't think it odd for him to be named several times. He's important.

[herid]

I personally think the Broken Wolf is Lan. "And his destruction shall bring fear and sorrow to the hearts of men, and shall shake their very will itself." I cant see that anyone would really care if Slayer were to die. Lan on the other hand is basically a living legend, especially among the Borderlanders, the Aiel and other Warders. His death would be a massive loss that would be felt by basically every major character as well. And he definetly knows death, having been raised from birth to fight the Shadow.

 

why is Lan the Broken Wolf then? There has to be a very good reason to call him that in a prophecy. Also, the prophecy say "the one whom Death has known" so it speaks of death knowing him not the other way around. In what sense has death known Lan? metaphorical explanations like the one you suggest don't fit here IMO. That would relate not only to Lan but to many others I've seen suggested like Ituralde, Bashere or Perrin. They may have seen a lot of death but I don't see how that can be twisted to say that Death has known them. There are relatively few people who could fit that one IMO. Rand is one if we take Death to mean Moridin. Slayer would actually also fit as he has clearly died (Isam has at least) so Death knew him in that sense. Not that I think Slayer is the one meant here. Hopper would fit too as he already died and then was killed again and for good in TAR. but of course Hopper doesn't fit at all the other parts of the prophecy. It could perhaps be someone like him, say, a hero of the Horn being killed in TAR but that is very unlikely. Or maybe it will be a Hero of the Horn who comes when Mat blows the Horn for the Last Battle. That has to happen eventually and the heroes of the Horn should not be completely invincible when they come for the Horn (although they seemed to be in Falme). It would really not be interesting if they were impossible to harm at all. It could also be anybody who met Moridin. He hasn't met any lightsiders other than Rand in his Moridin persona but that can change. Or, if Taim is Moridin in disguise as some believe then anybody who he met as Taim would qualify too. That would cover a lot of people including Perrin.

[mb]

Ishamael knew about the 3 taveren. Moridin (being Ishamael ressurected) seems to have Ishamael's knowledge.

 

 

Broken Wolf seems to indicate some kind of connection with wolves.

And the line before refers to last days of Fallen Blacksmith.

 

Karaethon Cycle tells that when the Wolf King carries the hammer the final days are known.

 

 

Perrin seems the only one that fits each.

[yoniy0]

And the line before refers to last days of Fallen Blacksmith.

No, it refers to the "last days of [his] pride". And the line in question begins with "Yea, and the Broken Wolf". Now, if they were one and the same, why add the "yea, and"?

[Randommer]

"The Broken Wolf, the one whom Death has known, shall fall and be consumed by the Midnight Towers."

 

What if the Broken Wolf is really Slayer?

 

We know that when a wolf is taken by a Darkhound, the wolf's soul becomes twisted and it becomes a Darkhound. So what happens when a Wolfbrother is taken by a Darkhound? Logically, it should produce a dark version of a Wolfbrother. We know that Slayer shares a lot of the Talents in Tel'aran'rhiod with Perrin and definitely has some sort of direct antagonistic relationship to the wolves. If Isam/Luc is a fallen Wolfbrother, then that would absolutely make him a "broken wolf."

 

We also know that Moridin is the only Forsaken who has a sustained relationship with Slayer. Moridin's name means Death, so Slayer is also a perfect candidate for the "one whom Death has known."

 

The problem with this theory is the next sentence in the prophecy: "And his destruction shall bring fear and sorrow to the hearts of men, and shall shake their very will itself."

If Slayer is the Broken Wolf, and his falling will bring sorrow to the hearts of men, it must be the case that Slayer will somehow be redeemed and end up on the side of the Light (just in time to die). What if Perrin somehow saves Slayer's soul. Luc and Isam were not evil before they disappeared, so something happened to them to make evil and force their souls into one body.

 

As a final note the previous Dark Prophecy that we have in its entirety, the Blood calls Blood prophecy in The Great Hunt, mentions Slayer. Clearly, Slayer is an important figure in Dark Prophecy.

 

Huh that's a really interesting theory. I've always been 99% convinced that the Broken Wolf was Bashere, for several reasons, but the 'one whom Death has known' part never made sense for Bashere, or Lan or Perrin, particularly as 'Death' is capitalised like that. The only candidate it fits for is Slayer, because of his dealings with Moridin. That said though, we don't know that Bashere or Lan haven't unwittingly encountered Moridin at some point.

 

On a side note, people have been referring to Graendal and Moridin's interpretation of these lines, but do we know for sure that they were reading this section at all? Do they refer to these lines specifically?

[herid]

Ishamael knew about the 3 taveren. Moridin (being Ishamael ressurected) seems to have Ishamael's knowledge.

 

 

 

I think this is a bit of a stretch for Perrin as he didn't know Perrin as Moridin but it's better than many other interpretations I've seen.

 

That said though, we don't know that Bashere or Lan haven't unwittingly encountered Moridin at some point.

as I mentioned above, if Taim is Moridin in disguise then he already met Perrin. but even if he isn't, then all that's required is for Moridin to meet Perrin (or whoever the Broken Wolf is) once in aMoL. That's not a very hard requirement to satisfy.

On a side note, people have been referring to Graendal and Moridin's interpretation of these lines, but do we know for sure that they were reading this section at all? Do they refer to these lines specifically?

yes, Graendal refers to Perrin as the Fallen Blacksmith once.

 

in general, I'm afraid that there might be some dirty trick pulled in relation to this prophecy similar to what was done with the reason why the borderlanders were looking for Rand. some ad hoc device like the hidden borderlander prophecy which would be utterly impossible to predict beforehand no matter how hard you stare at this prophecy and rack your brain about it. that borderlander thing was a huge downer in that respect. for example, we could easily see another as yet unmentioned prophecy naming Rand (or whoever) some kind of Wolf.

[Randommer]

That said though, we don't know that Bashere or Lan haven't unwittingly encountered Moridin at some point.

as I mentioned above, if Taim is Moridin in disguise then he already met Perrin. but even if he isn't, then all that's required is for Moridin to meet Perrin (or whoever the Broken Wolf is) once in aMoL. That's not a very hard requirement to satisfy.

On a side note, people have been referring to Graendal and Moridin's interpretation of these lines, but do we know for sure that they were reading this section at all? Do they refer to these lines specifically?

yes, Graendal refers to Perrin as the Fallen Blacksmith once.

 

I suppose the 'one whom Death has known' requirement could be fulfilled by some random meeting with Moridin in AMoL; it'd just be kinda lame is all.

 

As for Graendal referring to the Fallen Blacksmith, I don't think that proves anything. It's highly likely that Perrin is mentioned more than once in the Shadow prophecies. It's just that Graendal and Moridin seem fairly convinced of the passage's meaning, and the bit we get is extremely ambiguous and doesn't even say clearly that Perrin dies. But I mean yeah they could be referring to the same lines we get; I suppose it doesn't matter anyway when it comes to interpreting it.