This next episode should be interesting; Nyn and Liandrin are the Tv shows most compelling characters and I bet you buttons to bitcoin that there’s a clumsy exposition dumb in the Ways about “why” Liandrin betrayed them. But I’m really very interested to hear it because show Liandrin has made us (the audience) as well as Nynaeve believe she really does (in some way) respect and care about Nynaeve. But, as a book fan, it’s hard to shut off my brain and not be asking, “Why in the world is Liandrin your most fleshed-out and compelling character?” Hmmmmm…. It would be like watching an adaptation of the Lord of the Rings and finding out that the most interesting character that they’re giving tons of time to fleshing out is Nazgûl #4. And even that’s probably overstating her importance in the books. Maybe more like Goblin #7 is really interesting in This Adaptation… hmmmm.

I believe by “neutered” he probably wasn’t referring to seeing a more emotional Lan (I think all of us can agree that Ageless/Stoic Aes Sedai & Warders weren’t going to “work” for Tv); I think he was probably referring to the fact that Tv Lan seems pretty incompetent as a Warder so far because: A) he can’t cover up Moiraine’s “tell” and so was easily followed. B) he’s pretty much only “lost” in fights C) Moiraine has directly said “you’ve failed me” and so “released” his bond D) now he’s pouty and doesn’t know what to do None of which happened in the books. None of which makes Lan look like a guy who walks into the Blight alone with a just a sword. None of which makes us believe that Lan is THE most BA Warder of the books. None of which sets us up to believe that Lan can take on the best swordsman in history and “tie”. Now this whole Moiraine rudeness and pushing Lan away, and Lan allowing it. If the payoff is Then I will have mad respect for Rafe and the writers and actually like this plot line. But. If they’re doing this crap to just keep Moiraine central and make up a story for her and they don’t know what to do with Lan while they keep making up stuff for Moiraine. Then, they’ve just ruined their adaptation, and I predict (sadly) they won’t make it to 8 seasons, because they are waaay overestimating Pike’s pull if that’s the case. IMO

You know, every time I rewatch and set my book brain aside; it’s not as bad as my knee-jerk reaction. This episode was pretty slow, but it wasn’t bad Tv. There was no bad CGI or ridiculous writing or poor acting. All my complaints are book related complaints. But as a book-reader, yeeeeah:

Y’all are proving my point. You don’t know, we don’t know, the characters don’t seem to know… whether Moiraine is stilled or shielded or just ditching Lan & what’s going on with the Warder bond because of that. And I’m arguing A) I think they’re doing this to keep Pike central to the story & B) that’s a bad choice because it’s the least interesting plot-line in the show so far

Elaida is in S3, but I find the theory that Liandrin & Alviarian have been condensed fairly convincing. Heres some things I would have done differently: 1) don’t write that Moiraine can kill one Fade alone with a knife, and then edit Lan’s fighting two Fades down to make him look incompetent, so you can make Fades movements look superhuman. If you go to the behind the scenes, Daniel Henney worked really hard on that scene & it was originally longer and better than what they gave us. Majorly bad choice both for the books & for Tv. At this point Tv viewers should be in agreement with Liandrin “Warders are glorified dogs.” And also believe that Lan isn’t at all special among Warders. 2) Book or Tv only viewers are have no idea what you’re doing with the Warder bond crap. The writing and direction took a long time to make the audience believe that Moiraine is stilled & therefore Lan should be suicidal (lot of min in S1 to set that up). Now they’re backpedaling that she’s just shielded. But does that mean that the bond is still there, they just can’t feel it? In which case, Lan’s not really suicidal? Then what was the point of wasting all that time with these completely fabricated non-WoT stories? If they’re doing all this to keep Moiraine central - then casting Pike as Moiraine was the biggest mistake they’ve made thus far - because you’re going to have to keep doing that crap and messing things up to make her The Most Important WoT character. This is the Nynaeve show - could have cast her as Nynaeve. 3. Knock it off with the “fake-out” deaths. You’ve done this over and over again in S1 & you’re doing it again in S2. What it does is make the audience not trust you; it’s a cheap gimmick. GoT was unique in American fantasy lit/Tv in that they actually killed their Main Characters. That’s interesting. This is not. At this point, what I think they should do is: Trust would be restored. And despite their fears and their false belief they need to keep Pike central - I’d bet you ratings would soar. Now that you’ve done so many fake-out deaths though, the payoff to a Huge WoT moment is next to nothing because: It’s writing on a level as bad as Arrow. 4. With that being said, I’d change the ending to this episode. Moiraine seems to “know” that Lanfear can’t be killed. Have her club Lanfear over the head with a board, then, Rand/Moiriane have their scene…blah, blah, blah, she’s Lanfear. Lanfear wakes up and tries to kill Moiriaine. Then Rand (with LTT’s help/in his head screaming) stops Lanfear from killing Moiraine by pinning her to the wall with the power & shielding her (reminiscent of Nyn/Liandrin). Rand/Moiraine run. Then Lanfear breaks the shield. That, my friend, is much better decision making.

I bet you they hand-wave away the fact that there’s no chance Moiraine could get away against Zombiefear if she resurrects in about 10 sec. Im guessing next we’ll see Rand/Moiraine they’ll be “hiding” in Cairhein with Moiraine’s family, and they’ll be … just fine??

Even in the books Balefire was dumb. It was like: “Never do this or you might wreck the world and destroy the fabric of reality/or even the wheel itself (which is exactly what Isha’mael wants to do).” And then they just do it, like A Lot. Pretty dumb. Kind of like a show that thinks we need + or - 1.5 fake out deaths per episode. But dang, Tv wise “I’m a monster too.” Ok… Zombie Lanfear. Ok… I see you, boo. Hope Moiraine can run like the wind, cause she’s shielded - so even in their freakish sub-WoT Tv world - how the heck is Moiraine gonna last another 5 min? Untrained Rand is gonna stop Zombiefear? Not buying it… I still need a moment. And a drink. Where’s Matt at? He would drink with me. Is he in this show? Still doing nothing? Ok.

I don’t know - if I try really hard not to compare & to pretend - this is just something else, another turning of the wheel, then it wasn’t bad Tv. It was actually mostly good. The episode has an inclusio - like I predicted we opened with the bloody woman scene from the trailer, but to bring that back at that end to reveal Selene as Lanfear - that was a nice touch. The acting, all around, was excellent. But Selene/Rand scenes in particular, I’m leaning forward on the edge of my seat. The CGI was all well done. Perrin is finally “training” sort of, Matt & Min are still going somewhere (we don’t know where? Apparently Cairhein? Maybe?), Moiraine is looking for Rand and recruited Logain to be Asmodien. The Tower is still the central; I really think it ought to have just been caught “The White Tower” and not the “Wheel of Time”. Liandrin, Nynaeve scene was excellent. Loved the Liandrin reveal. Egwene’s motivation/fear of letting people down. BUT. What the bloody goatsherder’s mother are they doing with this Warder bond crap and Lan? And are you flaming kidding me… Lanfear can be stabbed through the heart and have her throat slit and then just regenerate?! Why are they so obsessed with the fake out death? I just… Need a moment…

So in others words you want the show to lean even heavier into the whole

As per the black sister (and I’m referring to a darkfriend Aes Sedai) that we see in the cold opening… do we think that in this season they will reveal: Thoughts? Oh, and I think having Fain show his face, and then having him hunting down and killing the DF’s would be excellent writing. Especially coupled with Lord Ingtars “Maybe he had a reason. You might not like the answer, but it’s worth asking the question.”

So you think TvThom isn’t coming back? You’d be wrong… Id also bet you buttons to bitcoin that Ishy will die (and come back) at some point. Both Reincarnation & characters that “die” and then “comeback” is very WoT. And the writers have proven that they absolutely love the fake-out death ploy! 😉

I really do believe “comparison is the death of joy”. And that’s what I think happened for Daniel Greene. When I make a conscious effort not to compare it to the books, S2 is really good Tv and writing so far. There’s lots of “set ups” and unanswered questions and misdirections. Min is working with Liandrin? Liandrin, a man hating Red has a secret son? How does something Min will do to Matt free them both from Moiraine? And where is Matt headed? Selene seems shady, but Rands a little crazy too- what’s gonna happen there? Lan and Moiraine are splitting up? What’s Bayle Domon gonna do? Fades still hunting him? Is Elyas gonna train Perrin, Perrin is afraid of becoming a wolf? What exactly is Perrins power? Seeing past visions? Uno is dead. Who else is expendable? I wonder what Verin will do in this season? Lots of questions. I do hope that at least one of the male characters gets to “shine” like Nynaeve has through the first season and half…hopefully Rand 😉

So - I'd say that of WoT commentators that I know of - Daniel Greene has the biggest following. Interesting his comments: he gives it a "light 6 out of 10" But most of his comments were negative.

so I watched that scene multiple times…it’s another “clever” fake out. If you watch closely she doesn’t actually see Matt stab Rand with the dagger (the face of the person is turned away), she does see Matt lower Rand to the ground. They’re making you think it’s Matt, it’s really Fain. I’m confident that what they’re doing is showing you that just like with Aes Sedai telling the truth, Min’s viewings aren’t infallible even though they always happen (i.e what she sees isn’t always what she thinks she sees).

Fair enough. I recant 😉 "book things" is a sweeping generalization.

Nobody said this was their only consideration for production. But this IS what Rafe, himself said - if you just watch the Bonus content on Prime for the episode. He says, "We wanted the audience to love Uno" and we "wanted the audience to f'ing fear the Seanchan." Now, they've done so many fake out deaths already - here's to hoping Uno is magically fine in about 6 months! 😉

Yes - they can still, maybe will, achieve the same result with different characters that are actually more essential or important, at least, to the plot & show how the EF5 become less naive and like some of the people that they initially think are "backwards". But Uno was the 'old world-wise soldier'. And, I honestly don't really care they killed him. I was just making the point that I don't think they gave great thought to what Uno's bigger purpose in the books was. Just like I don't think they gave great 'book thought' to: Fain stabbing people with the dagger, the girls rather than Rand decimating the Trollocs, the soul gender stuff, ect... Really, my only point is, I don't have confidence that they are deeply concerned with book things when they are making certain changes. I think (for better or worse) they are making certain changes to A) appeal to a wider audience, and B) because they think "new" stuff is better than a close adaptation. If one takes this as - "a new turning of the wheel" and makes an effort not to compare it to the books - this season has been good TV, IMO. Comparison is the death of joy.

It's true I'm assuming from Sarah saying that book readers should "gird their loins" that, she, as the resident book-expert, had a hard time with some of the changes. What I'm referencing with Sanderson is here: You could start at the 25 minute mark if you wanted... and clearly, clearly hear that Sanderson A) was surprised that they DID listen to most of his suggestions! but B) they ignored him on certain things. HE says that "he had a really hard time with the scripts" until he changed his perspective to this being "another turning of the wheel". At the 32 min mark is where he talks about disagreeing with fridging Laila - even though he understood why he was doing it. And your right that he says that "he would have had him Wound Luhan" and that "he was cool with it". But to be clear -- I'm NOT saying that Nakumura or Sanderson don't like the TV show -- or that they don't agree with ALL the changes.

He's not essential to the overall arc. I already agree with you there. But he did have a purpose. RJ said that the idea he was playing with in the WoT was "What would happen if you took regular small-town folk, and had someone show up and tell them, 'you're the savior of the world'. The importance of a character, like Uno (it didn't have to be Uno) is that the naive EF5 characters from a small-town laugh him off, but actually, as they experience more of the dirt and grime of the 'real world', they realize that someone like Uno - has a good reason for swearing all the time and being cynical & they become more like him. RJ was a Vietnam War vet, was he not? I think he knew some Uno's and they made an impression on him.

I don’t disagree with you that Uno is non-essential. I just don’t think they gave thought to what his purpose is … in the books … before they killed him. I think their reason was “we need people to fear the Seanchan” so “let’s kill Uno!” I think S2 has been really good tv and good writing. But I understand why the TV’s book expert consultant told book fans to “gird their loins”! Ultimately, I’ll be fine with changes if it continues to be good Tv!!

I do like the show. I was responding to a comment that the writers of the show understand the books “far better” than the hard core fans. After a post that they killed Uno not really understanding his purpose. Do you think they gave thought to the importance of Uno? I think they explicitly stated they killed him to make us afraid of the Seanchan. All of my examples were not “this doesn’t work or make sense for the show” examples — they are examples of the how the show writers DO NOT always understand the importance of things in the books. And the Shadar Logoth dagger being more deadly than normal weapons is probably the best example — but the rest were not “the show doesn’t have reasons for doing what they’re doing” examples — or “this isn’t a good show”. S2 has been good Tv. I was simply pointing out why I have low confidence that the writers/showrunner can recognize essential jenga pieces of the WoT & won’t at some point pull out the wrong block. Cause they already did - with a 'fake-out' Loial death & an accidental 'fake-out' Nynaeve death and healing; and they're just going to move past it and pretend it didn't happen. [Which I'm fine with by the way!]

I was writing in response to a comment that the “the writers understand THE BOOKS far better than the ‘hard-core’ fans do.” the Shadar Logoth dagger being a different kind of evil that is more dangerous and corrupts those it touches…Book essential. the mechanics of how the OP work and healing and what an untrained Egwene could possibly do -Book essential. changing the lore/degendering souls— again, that’s not respecting the books —which has a lot to do with ying/yang, male/female, balance/extremes. Gendered souls. I would argue are Book essential. Lan, being a quintessential Warder - bond or no bond - book essential. Moiriaine does say something like “she’ll pass the bond to Alanna”; which even in the mechanics of however the show is doing things — doesn’t make sense— is he still bonded or not? He can’t sense it but still has it? Makes me think they are leaning towards she’s permanently shielded. Anyways, all you’ve done — is prove my point. Cause the point is not that the show isn’t good or that the show doesn’t have explanations (and I’ve heard them too). The point is that if you’re going to argue the writers/Rafe understand the books better than hard-core fans you need to give book explanations for why their changes are good changes for the books. And even explain the need for Sarah Nakamura being a part of the show…at every point they’ve diverged from what she and Brandon Sanderson have recommended to them (there’s definitive proof that they didn’t understand things like at least those two hard-core fans). Sanderson has said on YouTube that he told them not to have Laila and fridge her…

You gotta back that up with evidence man… And explain how at the end of S1 they had Fain stab Loial and a number of the Shinarans with the Shadar Logoth dagger and then in S2, 6 Mo later, walah! They’re fine? Explain how Egwene tear healed a dead or burnt out Nynaeve. Explain how the Dragon could be “male or female”? When the Dragon Reborn is the reincarnation of LTT… Explain how their version of the DF social comes even close to accomplishing what it does for the GH. Explain how the best swordsman in the world can’t handle a Fade. Explain how Moiraine is gonna “pass the bond to Alanna” whilst shielded or stilled … is there still a bond, what’s up with that? Dude you gotta have evidence. Respectfully… And, perhaps, our end product will prove my doubts wrong and your confidence right… I sure hope so.

Im liking S2 better than S1, but yes - my confidence in Rafe is pretty low; if you watch the bonus video with the episode he says they killed Uno so that the audience would “fecking (isn’t that what Uno said?) fear the Seanchan”. I’d bet you bitcoin to buttons that we get a lot more of the White Tower show & less of the WoT; a lot more of “girl power” & less of competent male characters. It was all over S1 and thus far in S2: I, personally, couldn’t help but notice: Moiraine kills a Fade alone with a knife, Lan kills one by surprise and then one or two? Kick his butt. I’m not sure the writers know how many Fades there were…because Verin says there were 3 in the second episode, but it seemed to me there were four. I noticed that in the first arch - Nynaeve’s dad did squat in a fight, her mom saved the day. In the last arch, Perrin, Matt, and Lan do squat, Nynaeve blasts trollocs away. Liandrin has a big-time expanded role. Moiraine has more scenes. Perrin and Matt still aren’t doing all that much (that is impressive). I mean, Matt’s still a coward who is ditching his friends at this point? And Rand through the first three episodes has basically, only, sort of… acquired himself a couple teachers? (Are we really replacing LAN’s teaching him to fight with a sword with a few comments about learning from Errol?? And Asmodien’s teaching him the power with Logain?) And then, are we gonna have Jedi Rand fight Turok at the end of S2 & Ishy & credibly believe he even remotely hold his own??? Also - I predict - Gaul will be cut and Avi, Bain, and Chiad will kick butt. Nynaeve has been awesome & Liandrin is compelling. And the fight scene at the end of ep2 was good. I’ll give credit where credit is due. And it’s been entertaining Tv. And the writing has a much more compelling question “Who can we trust?” “Why do people turn to the dark side?” But, it’s been hurting my heart how they’ve been doing many of my fav characters who I admired for many years dirty: Lan is mostly incompetent as a Warder in the show (he was the biggest, badass swordsman in the books). Rand has one of the most interesting arcs with Leadership, identity, battling mental illness, duty/pressure or purpose, in fantasy lit … in the Tv show he really hasn’t Done anything yet. Matt is charming, funny, the reluctant hero - the Han Solo of WoT; in the show he’s a no show. Perrin is the gentle giant, thoughtful, careful, loveable leader of the books; they gave him a wife and fridged her in the show - so he’s basically an emotional wreck who’s got no lines & is afraid of being violent. I digress… But, I think they’re cutting Gawyn because he’s unnecessary as a character. So that’s another plus.