If it’s a “Nynaeve OP explosion of emotion” I’d be utterly shocked… never saw it coming… Writing Room: Rafe: So in the finale here Egwene gets freed from the collar, collar is put on Senna, and Egwene delivers the line “Must be difficult to go your whole life thinking you’re a person, only to find out you’re a damane.” Writer A: (Cough) Ummm but we made it so you could only be freed from the a’dam by death. Rafe: What?! When did we do that? Writer B: you told the costume designers that the damane were slaves in collars, kind of like pets…and they thought “collar?” There are collars in fashion. We’ll combine them. Rafe: so what are we going to do? Writer A) Kill Egwene? Rafe: She’s essential to the entire story. Writer B) well crap; I guess we could always have Nynaeve explode with power and heal her? Rafe: No. We can’t have anybody good heal death, that ruins the story. Writer A) Ummmm. How about there’s a secret to opening the a’dam that people used to know about but was forgotten & they discover it. Rafe: who discovers it? Writer B: Lan? Rafe: No. Writer A: Perrin? He hasn’t done much yet… or Matt, same thing. Rafe: Ok. That’s interesting. Writer B: Which one?

Oh man, what a disaster would that be… if every season you had a different main character bail… But that isn’t really a 3rd option because my two assertions were: 1) Egwene gets the collar off next episode 2) Egwene doesn’t die to get the collar off

Let’s me give you the internet amalgamation answer … courtesy of ChatGBT … for the definition of “fake-out death”… “A "fake-out" death in a screenplay or writing refers to a situation where a character appears to die but later turns out to be alive. It's a narrative device used to create suspense, shock, or surprise in the audience. Writers often use this technique to mislead viewers and keep them engaged in the story. The character's apparent death can be a powerful emotional moment, and their unexpected return can lead to plot twists and character development.” I rest my case. With AI on my side 😉

temporarily killing Egwene - but then having her not really be dead - is a “fake-out” death. Unless, they talk about it ahead of time…to telegraph to the audience “ok, she’s not really going to die.” So you disagree with proposition B) because you want to define terms and come up with your own definition of a fake-out death (that’s funny to me). You seem to also be saying you disagree with proposition A) she could be free without having the collar off ?? Which in other words is saying “No she won’t have the collar off next episode.”

I’ve been trying so hard to get this to be a trending phrase … I’ll bet bitcoin to buttons that: A) Egwene is freed from the collar next episode and B) she doesn’t die to get free. So @DigificWriter I’m curious which of those assertions you disagree with since you’re so confident in Nerdist journalism? Do you think Egwene is damane indefinitely? Or do you think an Egwene Fake-Out death is due? You’ve back yourself into those being the only options…

Because @DigificWriter assured us that the costume designers word in an interview was gold - see link a ways back.

I again think that we book fans are giving waaay to much credit to the writers that they A) know and B) care about the lore of the books. Sure Rafe and Sarah N are in the writing room trying to correct and work with it. But you most definitely have script writers that are not book experts and do not care about the lore the books. They care about writing a compelling story. And in S1 they made a choice to center the whole season around the question "Who is the Dragon?" So they absolutely blurred lore lines. And they also, definitely screwed some stuff up that Sarah and Rafe didn't catch or realize the ramifications of until afterwards. Like - Nynaeve burning out in a circle - and Egwene cry healing her. Like - Loial being stabbed by the dagger. Like - an a'dam that is a fashion piece rather than a dog-collar ... Ect...

If I'm being honest. I'm poking fun at the writers... of course. But they do get paid a lot and do know where they're going. So in reality, what I think they've set up is this: A) the a'dam can only be 'healed' by being on a woman's neck ; B) Rand wants to come and rescue Egwene ; he's headed to Falme and Lanfear is with him, C) Elayne and Nynaeve have captured a Sul'dam. D) Egwene is going to kill Renna. What a costume designer said in interview carries no weight in my mind. So actually, what I do think is likely to happen is something like: Rand can 'unheal' the a'dam with Saidin. Or Lanfear builds trust with Rand by removing it - it's just more knowledge lost to the Age of Legends. Or LAN has read something at some point that means he figured out how to take it off. Or the captured Sul'dam coughs up info that is suppose to be a secret, they actually can take the collars off. What I'm sure of is this. Egwene will have the collar off by the end of the episode and a collar will be on Renna. 100% guarunteed. And also, and I promise you I haven't seen the episode (how would I right?). I bet we get a line like, "Must be hard thinking your whole life you're a sul'dam, when actually you're a damane." ❤️‍🔥 Riight?

Alright, I'll try: Writer 1: Well, what happened in the books? Sarah: It was more like a dog collar and a button in the back unlocked it. Writer 2: But our designer made a collar that covers their whole chest and there is no button. Writer 3: Ok, ok, I got it. Let's have Egwene attempt to kill Renna, but it does double to her. She dies fighting against Renna. Make-up people do their thing. Egwene is dead. Collar pops off. Nynaeve comes in. Power explodes - tears - Egwene healed. Walah. Rafe: No. We're getting really bad feedback on non-death, deaths. Writer 1: Ok, ok, I got it. Nynaeve puts a collar on Renna, commands Renna to take off the collar on Egwene. Writer 2: How does that makes sense? You just said they have to die to take it off. Writer 1: Oh, well then - how are Nynaeve and Elayne going to rescue Egwene? They put their only a'dam on that random sul'dam. Writer 3: Ok, ok, ok. I got it. Our only option if we're keeping the a'dam cannot be removed unless damane dies & we are not doing more fake-out deaths - is... obviously ... we leave Egwene as a damane. Rafe: No. Egwene has to get free this episode. Silence. Ok. Then we just go with the books. It can be removed with a button in the back.

This made my day. That's exactly how I view the writers room too. Can you do this again but have the question be: "We told people that the a'dam can't be taken off unless the Damane dies. But we need Egwene to have the collar off. Go!"

I love it that other people have finale piled on @DigificWriter ... who A) can't admit when you're wrong about an assertion; we can go back and read that you were SURE that the in the show Moiraine was stilled. I thought it could be 50/50, but then I was - flatly wrong - that after 206 I was sure that Moiraine was stilled. I was wrong. So were you. B) can't admit that these writers make mistakes and clearly at points don't entirely know what they're doing. For example, they have 100% ret-con'd the fact that they 'fake-out deathed' Loial with the Dagger at the end of 108. Yes, I believe you that the costume designer was told "damane can't take off the collar unless they die". And I also 100% believe that then Sarah N or somebody said -- that A) is not the case in the lore/story of the books and B) won't work for the show either. And then they went, oops, ok - that's not the case. Sorry CGI and Costume people. I guess we're making you look dumb. As @SinisterDeath has pointed out - they've actually kept the lore of the books in the show - even if they go about it in a round-about or different way. But this is WAFO. I'm not 100% disagreeing with you. This show has proven over and over and over again that they LOVE fake-out deaths. So Egwene is due. Isn't she the only of the EF5 plus Lan/Moiraine we haven't seen fake-out deathed?

A costume artist’s word (second hand) is your proof? Nah. The way this shows writing/show-running has gone, it’s more likely that they just change their minds & decide that Nynaeve Power explodes and breaks the Adam off. Nynaeve power tantrum fixes all bad ideas previous held… On the other hand, this show does love its fake-out deaths… and Egwene is due for a death healing from Nynaeve — then “alls square!” 😉

I don’t know why you think death is the only way to remove it? That A) was not the case in the books and B) the show has consistently showed that just because a character says something/believes that it’s true, doesn’t mean that it is.

When you’re wrong, you’re wrong. And you should own it. Though, I do think that the writers are confusing non-readers like crazy randomly and quickly introducing things. When did Lan read stuff about the Age of Legends? Why wouldn’t Moiraine start reading about what Forsaken can do? Does anybody have an idea what the show’s rules are with people who have been stilled/gentled/shielded? Because apparently a gentled Logain still can train, but a shielded Moiraine is as worthless as 14 Aes Sedai that can only make it rain (rather than fight the Forsaken or go with to protect their Amylrin). I think they’ll use her for info - how do you take it off, how do you get in, ect… and then, one of them, I’m thinking Nynaeve has to wear the collar to get in. That would be more interesting. Even though I didn’t particularly like a lot of choices in this episode. I’m pleased that A) it was entertaining/good Tv B) I do think they are trying to course correct to get it on track to more closely follow the books - they’re making weird decisions to do that, but we’re inching closer. Now - I think it would have been a better choice to go the Harry Potter or GoT route - try to be as faithful to the books as possible early on, but then once you have momentum people are going to watch regardless, so then you can make changes. But … it might be a really good choice for WoT because books 4-6 were significantly better than 1-3 anyways. So we’ll have to see if this season is popular. I hope they give us season 4 and it gets approved at the conclusion of this season!

You know… I’ve never been happier to eat my own words. And I love that there was so much debate over “stilled” or “tied off” & now we got an answer. That shows good writing. But also, I echo the sentiment that “whew, glad that’s finally over.” However, I also have to agree and echo the complaints. This was … a rough episode & definitely throws waaay more fuel on the fire of — “come on man, you don’t have to neuter all the male characters to have awesome female characters.” I mean they purposely cut from Siuan single-handedly shielding and laying into Rand and having him on his knees — and saying, “We would have been so much better off if you were a woman.” To Egwene power display. (Shakes head). Alright though, initial positive reactions: 1) Loved Lanfear costume and explosions 2) Loved Egwene and Senna. Senna: we have a noble purpose for doing this. Egwene: I’m going to kill you. 3) Everything Isha’mael is golden. Though I do hope we also get insane Isha’mael 4) Ummm I like that Lan had a moment, though I didn’t make a ton of sense. I know writing wise they set it up “The key to a good Warder is that he protects you from yourself.” Still - super glad that plot line is finished. 5) The acting all around was very good. 6) The Special Effects were mostly good. 7) I like the Elayne/Nynaeve dynamic 8.) Matt hanging? ! Ok, now the bad (and these are all writing decisions): 1) Siuan - all of it, but in particular, Siuan is now gonna be on the side of Elaida/the Reds?? At least that’s what I think they’ve set up. 2) Matt - why they got to triple down on Matt’s dad is garbage? I was never an Able Cauthon defender before WoTTv but now I feel like I got to say, “Hey, he was actually a good dude!” 3) No Gaul. Why? Why not have him with Bain and Chiad? Is it that unbearable to have 1 awesome dude? 4) A lot of the writing decisions felt rushed, sloppy, or just don’t make sense. LAN figuring out it’s tied off? Lanfear not killing Moiraine cause Rand stepped in front? 14 Aes Sedai link, not to immediately respond to stop Lanfear, but to make it rain hours later? Siuan goes alone to stop Rand & Moiraine? Perrin gets a ji’eh’toh lesson? Matt gets knocked out and brought to Falme by Lanfear? You literally had a scene where Alanna and her Warders are gonna help, and then the next scene they’re not there? Ok, some other things I noted: 1) quadrupled down on battle in the sky! 2) little maiden hand-talk, that’s cool, I see you 3) we haven’t seen or heard of any of the other Shinarans in multiple episodes, probably gonna be another “whaaat?” when Hotsema just shows up again next episode. 4) I was sure we were gonna get Matt looking at the dagger this episode … but, though I’ve been wrong about a lot of takes … here’s my hot take (that I’m confident of) for next episode Matt: Isha’mael offers him the dagger, he doesn’t take it, Fain does, and Fain stabs Rand & Matt “rescues” Rand - gets Nynaeve to power heal him. 5) Was Bayle Domon just a cameo? 6) There still was no training - so if, all of the sudden, next episode Rand kicks butt, it makes no sense … he should handily lose to both Turok and Isha’mael if we’re following the shows narrative.

A hero is defined as: “a person who demonstrates exceptional courage, nobility, or strength in the face of adversity.” According to AI, anyways. Word I key in on there is exceptional. So unless it stands out as above and beyond what others are doing (in courage, power, and nobility) it’s not a “hero moment”. So the Matt one would be the only one that would somewhat qualify there since it’s specifically contrasted with his garbage parents just saving themselves. In all of the others, there isn’t “exceptional-ness” since they’re equaling the courage of their women and girls. And with the Tam, a lot of people (myself included)—when episode 2 came out, in particular, we’re a bit ticked that Nynaeve contrasted with Tam — Tam, a blademaster, can’t take 1 Trolloc with a heron marked sword. And Nynaeve, with a knife - can. So NOW the show has given us nothing to believe that blademasters are exceptional swordsmen. The blademasters we’ve seen A) are incompetent compared to Nynaeve with a knife & B) are in a mental institution & afraid of loud noises

Rand got his butt kicked trying to sword fight a Fade … and are we sure that Lanfear didn’t melt that Fade? Regardless, I wasn’t especially impressed with that. I think that choice - Perrin fridging his DF wife - was, not good. Not good at all. Opposite of “heroic” — but, I suppose it did show that he’s a brutal fighter if he lets loose. I do miss TvThom - I liked him. Anybody heard confirmations we get him back in S3??

I think if they hadn’t edited Lan’s fight weird and if I could figure out how to get the lighting in night shots better —that was definitely suppose to be Lan’s moment. I know from the interviews & bonus content that Henney put in a ton of work & it was a longer scene than what they gave us. So that’s too bad. Because I agree that that was suppose to be LAN’s big moment. And I think it would have been much better as a directing/writing choice to just have him win & not get cut up and need saving from Verin/Tomas. Then we would be going — dang, Lan is hard-core. That’s true, and my favorite moment of this season was the Shinarans fighting. Though that too was undercut by having the fight follow Perrin. But that is Perrin’s best moment entirely IMO. Because I did forget that he quasi rescues Loial & goes a bit beast mode in that fight. Good moment. Thanks for the reminder on that one!

i like your thinking; however, YOU define heroic or noble, I’d just like to hear (and maybe even be reminded) of what you think the show has done to get the audience to say “heck yeah” about any of the male characters (besides #TvThom who is my favorite character in the show thus far).

I think the “hero” or “power” or even just “endearing” moments that stick out in my memory, so far (both seasons), are: 1) Moiraine kills the Trollocs on Winternight and gets injured doing it. 2) Nynaeve escapes and single-handedly kills a Trolloc and then tracks the group down to rescue them 3) Nynaeve Power explodes and heals everybody before they die 4) Nynaeve Power explodes and protects everybody in the Ways 5) Egwene & Nynaeve almost die in a circle that uses their immense power to level the whole Trolloc horde in the Gap. 6) oh, one I forgot, but would count - Thom “sacrifices” himself against a Fade so that Matt & Rand could get away 7) Nynaeve testing in the arches 8.) Egwene fighting back vs. Seanchan to protect her friends 9) Avi kicking WC butt

Which, personally, is what I like about forums like this. And what I would say the show has done the best job with (better than the books even) is to make the Darkfriends perspectives and reasons believable/relatable. So I appreciate opposite perspectives. Im curious then: show wise only - Do you think that the general audience likes Rand, Lan, Perrin, or Matt more than Lanfear, Liandrin, Nynaeve, or Egwene?? I, personally, think that they’ve done a poor job with all the boys … y’all seem to be arguing that - that’s acceptable because it’ll get better… but I’d be curious what (in the show) are the moments so far that would make you think any of the men in the show are heroic?

You got Ishy level skills at interpreting things you way you want, good on you man. Ok, so Nynaeve didn’t win. But there was a scene of her training in the WT with two Warders, no such scene of Matt (and in the books he wasn’t fighting Elaynes brothers he was training//bet them he could win & it’s one of his iconic “hell yeah” moments that is very early on and gets you liking Matt. Matt hasn’t had that in the show, yet. Ok, so you’re arguing the Finale wiping out the trollocs wasn’t a big moment for the girls cause they were just the batteries. Well, you’d be contradicting the showrunner, Rafe, who said they made the choice to give that to Nynaeve and Egwene rather than Rand because they wanted a big payoff for the girls. And that’s the big “oh dang, he’s that powerful” hero moment for Rand early on in the series that tells you why people love & fear the Dragon. And, I thought the Perrin/Avi fight was ok. The editing wasn’t great. But Avi definitely comes out as the hero in that scene. And, whatever… I’m glad she had an awesome intro. But we’d already seen that Aiel are BA fighters - Perrin is still a side-kick. In the books, Perrin is a beast fighter because of his size/strength right off the bat (and kills a Whitecloak early on - which is way better than killing your DF made-up wife).

I would actually Love it if they had the guts to do this — I’m convinced it would take the show from being mediocre to being on par with GoT for popularity

I don’t know what you mean? All of the examples I gave happened in the show… If I was more interested in rewatching I’d give you the time stamps, but alas, I’d rather watch Football.

Thank you. And I agree. Though, I conceded even in my statement that it was pitched as 8 seasons, so WAFO… I believe that’s what @DigificWriter is arguing, that eventually it’ll shift and be clear that though there’s an ensemble & more up front focus is given to Moiraine and the girls, eventually it’ll be clear that Rand is the central character? And maybe even in this finale he’ll do something? At this point I would think it’s more likely that he loses to Turok, is stabbed by Fain; Nynaeve steps in, blocked of the power but beats Turok with a sword & Egwene breaks free single-handedly and blows the horn. But… we’ll see 🤪