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Posts posted by Cipher
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A lot of East Asian animation makes use of internal dialogue, and occasionally, live-action dramas from the region do too. In contrast, inner monologue seems relatively rare in Western TV/movie. I know I’ve come across them before, but none springs to mind immediately that I've seen recently.
One of my favourite web novels, Lord of the Mysteries (which spans over 1,400 chapters), is being adapted into an animated series. The first 200 chapters will be condensed into just 13 episodes, airing this weekend. (For comparison, Wheel of Time has only around 700 chapters.) I’ve been thinking about how the adaptation will handle inner monologues, since the protagonist frequently uses internal thought to solve occult mysteries - a key part of the novel’s tone and depth.
I recently saw a trailer where the main character walks the streets while his inner voice is narrated, which gives me hope that they’ll retain this important narrative device. Whether the adaptation will succeed overall remains to be seen.
But it also makes me wonder: Could Wheel of Time have been better adapted if it leaned more into internal dialogue rather than shying away from it?
I have always thought an animated series would suit this series best, but might be difficult to get adults to sit and watch such a thing in the west. Additionally as you pointed out western style doesn’t suit itself to that self talk as well as Anime. May be with the right creators it could work.
I really like the art style of Arcane and think that would be a perfect fit for WoT.
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To be entirely honest, I thought the series take on Mat was a mess - from the recast standpoint, and just the lack of charm and humor in his character on the whole - even when they switched actor, it was not working for me. I don't even know what his arc was in the series. Similarly to Perrin with the wolf brother plot, I thought it was messy. I don't fault the actors, my gripe is with the writing/adapting. Then there were cases like series Min - I'm not even going there.
S2 and S3 changed Mat from a smart ass to a dumb ass. Sanderson did that some as well.
IMO I prefer how Barney Harris’s Mat was playing than the later actor—no shade on him as I could see Mat in his portrayal, but some of it seems direction and writing.
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I do feel Wheel of Prime was probably not judicious with its budget, but I have no proof other than the final product and casting Pike as the lead.
A big problem was lack of extras. Extras are supposed to be cheap, yet we had very little of them. ?! Were they giving extras nice paychecks, so that they couldn’t afford to have many? The world felt underpopulated and the battles were lack luster. Modern AI could potentially fill that gap with convincing CGI IMO.
There may be conflicting opinions in the faults in Jordan’s work that need to be shored up for a definitive adaptation, but I think a poll on DM could give us the list things of things that need changing 🤣. E.g. Rand’s fight with Turak, the roll your eyes battle of the sexes, the battle in the sky, Moiraine’s and Thom’s relationship, etc etc etc.
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After fully reading both the cancellation and most recent ratings threads I am very pessimistic.
The value of the IP was set so high at $250M I can’t imagine many other companies wanting to try to tackle such a story with such a steep investment. That may be the cash out for those 2 guys. Not much more may be coming from the license.
AI could save the money on production, but would there be mass apeal from viewers. Probably not IMO.
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Is WoT too sprawling, does it have too many characters, too much internal dialogue to be adapted?
As big of a critic of Rafe’s/Amazon’s adaptation that I am I feel they proved it could be done IMO. Every time they followed Jordan’s script I felt like it was possible. I don’t know if that would have achieved an audience necessary for continuation though.
In the cancellation thread the discussion turned to speculation of using AI to bring WoT to video through computer animation. Would such a thing be soulless? We have endless ways of spending our entertainment budget, but could such a thing get a new audience?Please no criticism of Rafazon in this thread as that is well trodden territory.
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It was like thy won't kill anyone, ohh damn they killed Uno in the most brutal way. Then they made him a hero and pretty much ruined the death.
Rafe’s Uno seemed like a turd—how is a hero of the horn? He showed no battle sense when he was ready to die fighting the Seanchan for no purpose.
But honestly his death was pretty good. I liked book Uno, but TV Uno could be killed and was the “someone must die to show how ruthless the Seanchan are” example.
- Kaleb and king of nowhere
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Because Egwene is his favourite character. There is no power in the world to force him to make her look less relevant. Even global pandemic, which used by some fans as get out of jail free card to first season, didn't push him to change e8, Egwene needed to be center of attention, so she performed literal miracle. I even think "Who's dragon" was born from brainstorming how to make Egwene more important than Rand. So by pretending everyone equally could be Dragon, Rafe had chance to correct injustice and let Egg shine as she shoud. If only they didn't have star power behind Moiraine, different character would be main focus
I love Egwene’s story arc in the books. Her battles for the White Tower are epic and a high point for Sanderson’s books. Though her elevation to rebel Amyrlin is one of the hardest plot points to suspend disbelief.
But there was never any idea in my mind that Rand must be set aside so that Egwene can be elevated.
Why?!
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These AI scientists are like the scientists in Jurassic Park, more interested in whether they can do something than whether they should do something. AI will end humanity.
Only if we keep feeding it media and stories that say humans are evil monsters that the universe is better off without. E.g. Prometheus
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But he didn’t hear the louder, more consistent, complaints about favoring Egwene? Why would he fix one and not the other?
Oh I think S1 had louder complaints about Nyn overall, but ya that ending was crap too.
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Odd. Since she basically disappeared after S1.
Disagree. The wolves were the effort to implicate Perrin. And MO’s conversation with Eggy + Eg’s apparent use of the power in the Ways were meant to be those efforts.
She was, in no sense, a “main character” in that episode.
Over correction on Nyn. Rafe heard the criticism and then took away her big moments. He got it wrong again. She wasn’t even the same person as book Nyn at all. Terrible adaptation.
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This is entirely unverifiable. Cancellation is not the same as being "rejected by the vast majority" of fans. You can say that it didn't get good enough viewership, fine. But you do not have any clue how the "vast majority" of fans feel about the show. There are sizeable populations on both sides.
There was nothing inherently wrong with bringing in a big star and centering her for S1. In fact, played differently, this could have been a strength.
We didn't see any 'nations' in S1, and we have no idea of the 'sexual ethos' of anyone other than Emond's Field.
These are personal opinions and not objective facts. Perrin, Rand and Tam all fought well on Winternight. Perrin led Egwene through difficult terrain to find the Tinkers. Mat heroically saved his sisters. Rand didn't 'complain,' other than to question Moriaine.
Women had roles of leadership in the books too, or have you forgotten?
Served the 'Who is the Dragon' plot line.
Served the 'Who is the Dragon' plot line.
Didn't happen in S1.
Okay, maybe one point in your favor. But so minor as not to be worth mentioning.
Served the 'Who is the Dragon' plot line.
Nobody said women were not strong in Jordan’s story. But the men were strong as well. Rafe made sure to tell us the men were nowhere to be found on Winter’s Night. When I watched S1E1 I was grumbling how the men were pathetic weaklings.
Nynaeve was the only target of “Who is the Dragon” fake out. They were pointing to Mat and everybody with an ounce of modern story watching knew it wasn’t him. They made no solid attempts to implicate Egwene or Perrin.I think you have it backwards. Who is the Dragon was not to be an interesting story arc, but rather an excuse to elevate Nynaeve in strength in S1–one thing obviously Rafe was interested in.
Alanna was very prominent in the forest battle episode.
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I feel you just want a convenient scape goat for this gay-feminist version of WoT failing.
The audience has spoken. Wheel of Prime was rejected by the vast majority of Wheel of Time fans.
Let us list S1 faults, because that is where it was rejected.
1. Casting RP as Moiraine and making her the main character.
2. Poor world building. Every nation has same metropolitan population and same sexual ethos.
3. Not a single strong male character in all of the 2Rs. How the hell is this a society of legendary military prowess? Women and men both want strong male leaders and protectors. Perrin a cry baby who kills his wife. Mat a thief. Rand a do nothing complainer.
4. (3 part 2) From the get go it was obvious who was wearing the pants in this world. The woman doing her Popeye impersonation with her beer mug and pipe. The Women’s Circle. Egwene’s mom putting “the mayor” in his place—if a similar interaction plays out with a man putting his wife in her place it is to show that he is an authoritarian jerk, here it is world building. “Women are in charge.”
5. Ninja Nynaeve
6. Rage healing—death fake outs
7. Making Alanna a main character
8. Too much warder story
9. Not enough Rand story and development
…….
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I’m going to vastly oversimplify and say this: Who Is The Dragon killed the show. I firmly believe that the core problems all stem from this choice.
Not even close.
If the “who is the Dragon?” plot was removed and everything else was the same the show would have died the same death.
From a business standpoint Rafe’s goal should have been to win the book audience. Tell Jordan’s story well enough to please that giant fan base. Jordan’s story is so good that many new fans would have been made in that telling.
Rafe wanted women to rule and men to drool. That was stupid.
- Jake Sykwalker and Goathill
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I hear where you’re coming from, it’s true that book fans were alienated by the changes, and that might have impacted viewership. But I think it’s important to recognize that adaptations aren’t the same thing as retellings. They’re not just translations. They’re reimaginings that have to function within a completely different medium with its own limitations and strengths. And sometimes becomes a victim of its time. I think GoT and similar higj stskes shows really made the writers feel like they had to match the energy to get viewers.
Jordan’s story was sprawling, and paced over thousands of pages. A direct, beat-for-beat version wouldn’t just be impossible logistically. It might honestly not work on screen, not in this era of streaming at least. It’s not Jordan’s exact telling, but this is version that tries to keep the core aspects of the world alive.
I get the frustration some book fans feel, some changes were too much for me as well. I felt like season 3 was as close to the way I imagined it when I read it as a teen, though. I really hope we get a Season 4. it feels like the show was just coming into its own. And the show managed get a lot of new people to pick up the books, too.
S3 was better as it followed the source closer than the first 2 seasons and proves the line “changes must be made to make adaptations” as a catch all to justify the changes as untrue.
IMO some of the changes subvert characters still in S3 like Aviendha besting or at least matching Lan in combat. A wet behind the ears maiden of the spear besting a 20 year veteran, hero of legend. Bah.
edit: I just jumped into this thread and posted before seeing that the show was cancelled.
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I don’t believe we will get a S4.
I think viewership fell off—starting higher in S1 than S3 ended up with. I have no data to support that, just my guesstimation.
The show should have tried to tell Jordan’s story as true to the source as possible; attempting to win the giant book fan base. They would have won some non-book fans in the effort. Instead they alienated a large part of that fan base and had a much smaller audience as a result IMO.
It seems just like Star Wars and Marvel change in tone and focus to appeal to “modern audiences.”
edit: wrote this before I saw that it was cancelled.
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I think this could be a really cool choice. Utilizing Logain more is definitely something I could get on-board with - especially because of his emerging arc in the books and how he becomes more important. I find Logain super interesting to invest time into.
Actually when I read EOTW I didn’t read critically and didn’t realize Rand was the DR—in my novice high fantasy reading. I knew he was the protagonist, but figured he and the Dragon were different people. I need to read it again and see how blind I was. I would like to listen to Rosamund Pike’s reading.
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I actually love the cold open with the reds chasing the mad channeler. It is good world building, sets up the audience with a lot of questions, and shows the madness.
But for the sake of the series the prologue would have been best. I wish they could have used Logain as the distraction, “we are hunting Ta’veren and female channelers, because the Dragon (Logain) has been reborn and we need heroes.” Don’t drop the Logain arc until the episode 6 or 7.
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Rand does not do that in the show. Matt does. And maybe my memory isn’t great but early books Matt was pretty insufferably dumb.Hell no. Mat is the most trust worthy with secrets. He doesn’t tell anybody anything he shouldn’t. You can trust Mat to the end—guaranteed. He is a scoundrel, but isn’t stupid. They make him as borderline idiot in this series and it makes me a little mad.
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The whole Gaebril compulsion thing makes less and less sense.
He had never met Leane and Siuan before so how did Leane manage to get his name? Does this form of compulsion actually allow the power to impart knowledge to it's target as well as open up to believing. In the books you had to tell the compelled the information that they were to believe after casting compulsion.
Why tell the massive lie that he had been in the family for 10 years? How does he create the massive backstory for those supposedly close to him?
Why is the Aes Sedai spy network not wondering who exactly this person is who just appeared out of nowhere, the range can't be that far.
“Yo, what is up with plot holes?”
“Oh? Well it is Choose Your Own Narrative with a type of magic you can imagine.—err uhm Magic!”
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Also regarding Moiraine. She is supposed to be deeply in love with Siuane. How about she is sexually loyal to Siuane—nope, may be I should go do that.
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I'm a few years younger than you and Guire, but for the record I'm a 48yo white cishet guy who's been reading WOT since I was a super-conservative teenager whose parents held me out of class to take high school sex ed as a correspondence course in the '90s. I'm married with three teenage kids. Demographics aren't the reason y'all are having a problem with this, it's a cultural thing - which is real and valid and I'm not trying to dismiss it. Just don't say you don't get it because you're a middle-aged straight guy.
Cipher, I'm curious what vulgar words have been spoken in the show to make you uncomfortable. I can only think of a couple explicitly sexual lines of dialogue, and they don't feel more explicit than what's in the books. Seeing some of the Alanna/Ihvon/Maksim scenes visually might trigger a more visceral disgust than reading about the Greens and their warders in the books, but the show has really cut out the women breasting about boobily that Jordan threw in every other time there was a female character involved in the narrative.
Bottom line, I think the show is a pretty accurate visual representation of Jordan's text depictions of sexuality in this world. If anything, it's tamer, which is Guire's original point in this thread.
You are right it is culture. The sexuality in WoP changes tone and feeling of the material.
No language per se—my example of language was a guy in the locker room at work. Depictions of sexual intimacy are generally what I am complaining about. Allana and her 2 warders rolling around in bed (early S2 episode) is both a ridiculous portrayal of sex and used more like a middle school tee hee hee moment. Not anything to do with the plot, I guess it is character developmemt(?). Such things were not described in the WoT in the slightest—the closest being Avienda and Rand in Seanchan land.
Many of the characters depicted in the show really are not who Jordan made his characters to be. No relationship between Rand and his 3 loves, Min prolly doesn’t swing that way(?). We have girls hopping on top girls with no developing of relationships with Elayne and Avienda—it is just titillating girl on girl action IMO. Nynaeve is not her motherly, know it all, school marm prude from the books. I like this Nynaeve, but she is a different person. Galad is not himself either, I would argue neither is Gawyn. Moiraine debating if she is gonna hook up with a Wise One she doesn’t know. Sex with randos at a drop of a hat.
I like that they showed the sweat tent, and how they kept the nudity to a minimum.
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Sex shown in any movie or show feels awkward to me. In Wheel of Prime it changes the tone and feel of the story in a worse way IMO.
I am in the same demographic as Guire. I don’t watch shows that have this type of attitude toward sexuality, but my love of WoT has me here.
The idea that Jordan didn’t show STDs means they didn’t exist in WoT is silly. Did he ever mention when a character relieved him/herself? I guess the people in WoT don’t have to sh!t. In GoT it was mentioned (books not TV show for me).
I have never witnessed co-workers or acquaintances IRL talk or treat sex as this show does. Except a random guy in the locker room say something vulgar that took him down a few pegs in my estimation of him.
Friends groups can be different ofc, but guys who just try to get with every woman they can and treat them poorly are not my kind of friends. And woman who jump from guy to guy seem miserable to me. I know it is different in the LGB community. Are lesbians known as being open and promiscuous as gay men? My limited understanding is generally no.
What does a lesbian bring on her second date? A U-Haul (full of her stuff).
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The more important question is why you think this is contrary to Canon? Do you not think Rand killed people while wandering alone during tDR? It's a function of saidin's influence. These are "show don't tell" breadcrumbs people will be able to follow later.
He did kill those dark friends in TDR even though he didn’t “know” they were dark friends, but they were there to capture him. IMO it was Lews Therin’s influence knowing these people were after him/Rand. But after more taint than S2 Rand has had.
The Show Has Been Cancelled
in Wheel of Time TV Show
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The woman who played Faile almost looked exactly like the Min from my imagination. May be a little younger.