I think this show is going to canned after the 3rd season.

The show runners didn’t care about Rand (as can be shown by their bad characterization of him—literally working with a Forsaken in Lanfear and being a murderer) and therefore neither does the audience.

I have hopes in a few years they will either sell their rights or may be do an animated adaptation that is more faithful.

On 10/20/2023 at 5:05 PM, Mailman said:

Bollocks

 

Some parts are 100% open to factual objective analysis. If you break your own established world rules that is bad writing. If you write your characters to do something that is completely against anything that character would ever do then that is bad writing.

 

Are you telling me that if Rand pulled out a rocket launcher at the start of S3 and used it to kill Egwene that we could not objectively analyze that as bad writing.

I think a rocket launcher to kill Egwene would be a interesting direction for Wheel of Prime.  I never would have seen it coming as a book reader and it would keep me guessing at what would come next.

It also would sub-marine Rafe’s favorite character and I would consider that as an act of vengeance for what he has done to characters I care about. 

1 hour ago, Scarloc99 said:

this argument just has no basis in fact whatsoever. In the books Egwene's plot actually takes up more time then Rands at various points, in season 1 Rafe didn't talk about Rand because he didn't want to spoil who the dragon was for non book viewers. In season 2 he is right, from book 2 Rand is not the main Protagonist, he is one in an ensemble piece and Robery Jordan spent a lot of time and gave a lot of page time to the E4 having focused on Rand when he thought there would only be 3 books to tell the story in. 

 

Saying after 2 seasons of the characters all broadly following the same story themes they did in the books gives no indication that anyone wanted Egwene as the Dragon. I mean Brandon would have come out and made that statement and i have not seen that anywhere (correct me if I am wrong) and not based on opinion, but based on fact of Rafe saying to him I don't want rand ot be the Dragon reborn. 

I also dont see anywhere a "fear" of gendered chanelling, it has been really clear to my non book reading friends so far that there are 2 halfs to the power, 

In TGH Rand is most definitely the main character.  He gets more time than anybody else and has very good development as “Lord Rand” and Lady Selene actually forces him to level up. Rand has 53% of the POV with Egwene in 2nd at 13.5%.

In TDR it is ironic that Rand is mostly MIA though.

On 10/11/2023 at 1:17 AM, Scarloc99 said:

The collar rules do not break any established TV lore, and given that we have never seen 1 damane collar another in this way in the books any statement that it isn't possible is opinion, the simple fact is that in the TV show it very much is possible, and the lore backs that up. 

I posted about this just 1 page ago but very briefly. 

Renna tells Egwene laughing, The collar will have no effect on me, that means that to Renna the Collar is not a weapon. If Egwene had used it to beat or to hit or cut Renna then yes, she would be stopped, but she is using teh collar for it's intended purpose and, I imagine it has never been programmed into the Collar to prevent a dammane using it on anyone, because, how would a Damane actually collar a wildling, seeing as Damane are lower then all. 

 

So the Collar is not a "banned" weapon because it only affects enemies of the Seanchan, it is not a weapon in Renna's eyes because it is not going to affect her and it is not a weapon in Egwenes eyes, because as a damane she is simply either collaring another Damane, or putting a nice collar on someone that will have no effect. 

 

As for the feedback loop, did you watch the following scene. Renna was screaming in pain, Egwene, was clearly in pain, but, had learnt to channel and direct it in a way that she knew she could outlast Renna, Renna told her, if you continue to hurt me we will both die. Egwene didn't care about that. 
 

Obviously WoPrime plays fast and loose with the rules, but a feedback loop could not be over looked in reality. The pain would build up so fast and so quick once Egwene put Renna in the choking position that Egewne would collapse much faster than she did when contemplated hitting Renna with the pitcher.  But she may have survived, because it was only a projected pain and not actual suffocation like Renna experienced.  Once Renna died Egwene might have had the pain stop immediately.

IMO the scene worked well enough and developed Egwene’s character.  But the whole Ishy scene was weak sauce, may be even worse than Rand beating Turak in the books.

On 10/7/2023 at 8:18 PM, DaddyFinn said:

Uno is Gaidal Cain, confirmed by Rafe in an interview

I kind of like this change(?),  but only relevant to book readers and not even hinted at.

Uno in Wheel of Prime is more of a clown than an awesome hero with a vile tongue—he is mocked by green horn and Ogier when he should be a seasoned veteran able to put people in their place. 

10 hours ago, Guire said:

I really like both actors in Damodred family so extending their runs would be great.  Seeing more mature Rand playing off Lady Anveare in court if she is jockying for power would be good TV.

Don’t give the writers any ideas, we got too many story threads competing for screen time as it is.

6 hours ago, Scarloc99 said:

I think every university student would be offended if they where called children, but many would also happily admit they are not adults yet in how they act, think, behave, and they shouldn't be. Here in the UK university is seen as much as the place you go to grow up and start to become an adult, as it is for academic purposes. Having spent a year in America when I was myself a student I can say that 18-21 yo Americans, in my experience, where generally even more immature and had even more growing up to do, I wonder anecdotally if it is because in the UK we are treated as full adults at 18, but that is a whole other thread. 

Historically people were considered adults when they came of age in a culture, e.g. bar mitzvah for Jewish males at age of 13 which signifies that they are an adult. That may have varied from culture to culture, but we’re expected to act far more mature than “young people” do in western societies in our present day. @HeavyHalfMoonBlade is from a Nordic country? (I.e. The people of Nordic countries may be more mature on average than people in the USA or other western countries?) And may have a different cultural take on Faile and Perrin. I have heard phone techs from India are trained to expect a 10 year deficit in maturity for USA callers.
 

RJ actually signaled the time in which he wrote WoT by the fact that many of the characters act far too immature for their age.  I guess it was a recurring plot device that he used it to cause drama, tension, and situations in which the reader will know better than the characters.  I think Wheel of Prime has retained that method in some ways.

But I look past that and read Faile and Perrin much as you do.

10 hours ago, king of nowhere said:

Really. 

It's not difficult for characters to use the privy or have breakfast. It's not difficult for liandrin, inside a secret passage and possibly with dozens of accomplices, to sneak unconscious people around. In the relevant thread, people have given a half dozen possible suggestions.

You, instead, keep evading my questions. I think you are arguing in bad faith, and has been for a while

Are you saying I am arguing in bad faith?  I challenge you to point to the post I have not responded to your challenge that was a total rebuff to my original statement. What questions of yours have I avoided?

It seemed to me you were asking how are they going to dress the captured Sul’dam.

I think some details are unimportant (like dressing the sul’dam—see below) while others are important details, but are completely ignored because of bad writing.

Liandrin getting 3 unconscious girls to the Waygate is actually difficult depending on where that Waygate is.  Half dozen accomplices?….Total fan fiction.  Jordan’s writing of this scene is far better than what we got in the show. The whole knock the people out and bippity boppity booing them to the desired location is absolutely lazy, sloppy, bad writing. It would take writers a few thoughts to come up with something better, but I believe the writers wanted a “tune in next week to see what happens,” moment, regardless of the consequences.

Privy and breakfast are unimportant details we all take for granted and every person can do those without question.

Now the show a’dam is poorly designed because some moron in art direction for the show thought it looked cool without regard for story.  But there could be a device with wires or cord that could be threaded through the collar to be used to pull a dress up.  Now the wonder girls are not going to have access to that device. Do they have a damane dress to put on the sul’dam? But the writers don’t care about such details and will just ignore it.

On 9/29/2023 at 6:20 PM, king of nowhere said:

you still haven't told me how you think they put the grey dress on ryma, or how they are going to keep the cloth from fraying and decaying over decades, or how they can avoid the damane from getting pressure ulcers, or parasites, or other kind of wounds under the collar, that could infect and be deadly if not treated - which they cannot treat because there is a collar in the way and seanchan don't know healing

Just like how they showed how Liandrin sneaked 3 unconscious tower students past guards, other sisters, and the like to get them to a waygate.  Just show the sul’dam in a grey dress in the scene she needs it.  Just like you don’t show our cast using the privy or eating breakfast.

On 9/29/2023 at 4:43 PM, fra85uk said:

 

No way they can possibly do Falme AND Tear in the Season finale

Would be more probable to have first half S3 Tear an second half Aiel wastes

5-6 S4

7-8 S5

9-10 S6

and so on up to S8

It would not be an impossible feat, they might ask Lan to study how to do it

It would be hard to do Tear, Wastes, Tanchico, and the Battle of the TR all in one season IMO.

On 10/1/2023 at 5:08 AM, Vartija said:

I think I see what they tried with his apology (him being so duty driven that he takes an extreme view of protecting her, which is an admirable quality), but I didn't really like the imbalance of it. Moiraine should be just as apologetic towards him. She's the one who masked the bond ever since S1E8 which practically made his job impossible. Then she irrationally insulted him as a bad Warder early in S2. Even if we understand it was to push him away I don't think show-Lan saw it that way. I got the feeling Lan thought he had failed her by not understanding her condition (stilled or shielded?), but to me that's asking too much from Lan. He's not supposed to be the One Power expert in the relationship. 

 

Anyway, when Lan apologized to her I thought the obvious response from Moiraine should have been "there's nothing to apologize for" and take part of the blame. Now they kind of made it look like he was the only one at fault. Maybe they'll get Moiraine's side of the story in next episode because now they made her (unintentionally?) look a bit inconsiderate. 

Every husband ever, “I am sorry it was my fault.”

His friend asks, “what did you do?”

”I am not exactly sure.”

53 minutes ago, king of nowhere said:

yes indeed.

 

and there is also the natural tendency to try to make the best of your situation. you can't do anything about being damane, so you try to get as comfortable a life as possible in the circumstance. you try to get rewards and avoid punishment, because punishment sucks and rewards make your life better. eventually you stop thinking about it and you behave by habit.

perhaps you start buying into the seanchan system of values. by virtue of repetition, you end up believing that the seanchan empire is a great wonderful thing and you should try hard to enforce it, because this gives a value to your life, and believing that your life has value is a fundamental human need. those that end up there are the best damane, those that even if freed may keep fighting for the empire.

And that goal is better reached by using violence as little as possible. it's easier to persuade a damane to love the empire by telling her of how evil were uncollared aes sedai, power corrupts and we are protecting you from that corruption, and how her channeling potential is used for the good of all, she should be proud of that.

In fact, looking at the history of slavery, we find plenty of examples of slaves that got along with their masters, were happy in slavery, never tried to escape even when they could, and they all have two common things: the slave was well treated, and the slave had a personal stake in things. the slave that was put to raise the children of the master often ended up like a surrogate mother, and was treated like a family member. in turn, she had an easier life than other slaves. on the other hand, I've never read of slaves that were beaten extra hard and ended up loving their captors. they may be frightened into compliance, but never made loial.

the books themselves also support this: renna is marked as a particularly harsh suldam even by other suldam. tuon is a great suldam because she does not mistreat her damane. though she has it easier by playing good cop / bad cop with renna.

by the way, I think it was also mentioned in the books that ryma was dieing before being taken by tuon, and even other suldam had given up on her, which again shows that people with exceptionally strong willpower can resist the adam to some extent. and, ryma being a good person, kindness was more effective in winning her loialty.

 

it's just that, put all of that together, and it's really, really, really rare for someone to retain that spark of rebellion - or to even want to.

 

but the whole tangent started on whether egwene would have been broken. she would have certainly been beated into compliance, but even then, if some years later she was offered the chance to take part in a prisoner exchange, she would have retained enough of herself to want freedom again.

Those of us who are readers know the utter compliance “damane” have.  Egwene isn’t special in that regard.  She would be made to submit no matter what.  No doubt there have been murath damane who immediately followed orders and did what the sul’dam required.  I believe under those conditions the suldam obtain obedience and then order the damane to strike them with the pitcher.  It ends up being a damned if you do, damned if you don’t scenario.  So the compliant damane will still suffer tremendous pain and learn the lesson of what results from violent rebellion.

what is the deal with damane and Domani?  AIR?

15 hours ago, king of nowhere said:

some of us are pretty bad at recognizing faces. i didn't recognize her until she said it, so for me it was necessary.

Jordan repeated many things to give us reference.  I think it was good for her to remind us who she is/was.

I think they have made Lan this way to give him an arc too.  I think we are going to get book Lan if the series makes it the distance.

1 minute ago, Elder_Haman said:

There is nothing sexual about the Sul’Dam/Damane relationships depicted in the show. 

I would say the way the Sul’dam was talking, “do you feel that?” Or whatever she said as if there was a spiritual connection—like the bond between warder and AS?

My favorite episode so far.  All the changes I saw in this episode actually made sense.

Seems like so far we are only on pace for 1 book per season.

Seems too young and definitely Alivia was disenchanted with Seanchan life so would not be so enthusiastic about her work. Doesn’t seem right to me for Alivia.  I would picture a woman around 40 ish.

Edit: after watching S2E6 I actually have hope that this show can end up good.

Use the revenue to hire different writers.

Edit: NGL S2E6 and the E7 teaser give me hope for the future. 

Just now, Mirefox said:

That seems like such weak motivation, though.

 

In an interview that Jordan gives at the end of some of his audiobooks he explicitly discusses how the fantasy trope of someone showing up to a village, quoting a prophecy or something, then having the villagers leave with him just doesn't ring true.

 

Granted, Rand is a little past that stage, but he still needs more than some people saying "you fulfill prophecy, come with us."  Plus, at this point the Aiel are still like boogeymen to Rand, who really only knows of them from stories.  There's got to be something more than just "come with us."

 

Maybe they tell him about his mom?

I am inspired by Rafe to just invent random motivations for our characters.  Can’t be worse than some of his stuff.

19 hours ago, Scarloc99 said:

So I pointed that out, the doorway does not need to be in Tear to push the story forwards, Tarok could have it in his possession, having "liberated it", or it could be somewhere else. The doorway not being in tear does not make Tear worse, or weaker. 

Technically Rand doesn’t even need the door to end up in the waste.  We could just have Aviendha and a quote of some prophecy from Moiraine and off to the waste we go.

Instead of two trips through doorways for Mat he gets one where he gets both prophecy and his spear and medallion.

4 minutes ago, SinisterDeath said:

That's why they bring him to Rhuidean.
 

Ok, if there is group of Aiel who follow the prophecies and bring him.  Have some doubters and nay sayers and give us Rhuarc and Melanie to lead Rand there.

Aviendha as one of the scouts—as Thee scout who finds him.

On 9/19/2023 at 6:01 AM, SinisterDeath said:

The Aiel are seeking the Car'a'carn, and they just saw a Dragon flying in the sky? 😛 

The Aiel aren’t sold that Rand is the Car’a’carn until the proclamation showing his markings.  Hard pill for me to swallow if they just accept him before all that.

8 hours ago, Scarloc99 said:

I know, Verin telling a lie 🙂 

Seems like a stupid thing to risk lying about.  Strange.  I will just say she didn’t know Moiraine’s true power and it was incomprehensible to her that OP-less Moiraine could kill a fade with a dagger.

I need the writers to explain this seemingly wrong counting….may be @Skipp is right in a way that makes Sinister right too.

16 hours ago, Mirefox said:

He did.  I’m simply saying that even though he used it as a way to focus to embrace the source, he was using it as a way to focus long before being able to channel.  It was a mental exercise that lent itself to channeling but wasn’t required for him to channel nor was it used solely for channeling.

I guess your are arguing against something I never said.   What I first said here holds true from what I remember.

43 minutes ago, Mirefox said:

The flame/void and channeling are mutually exclusive.  It was a focusing technique that Rand learned at a young age and had he never been able to channel it would still be something he would use to center himself to sword fight.  Likewise, channeling had nothing to do with the flame and void; the latter was merely a way for Rand to focus and take control.  As he becomes more proficient with the use of the One Power he uses the flame and void less and less until channeling is simply instinctual.

That is not what I remember. I thought Rand used the flame/void early on to learn how to embrace the source. But I could be wrong.

I kind of liken Rand’s flame and the void usage to Prince Adam saying, “by the power of Grayskull!”