Just now, DaddyFinn said:

Can the "sex sells" argument be made regarding WoT when we don't see any actual sex scenes?

Well, ok the 'implication of sex sells' argument, then.

On 9/12/2021 at 5:22 PM, Harldin said:

Tam kills Rand and Elayne in the Red Wedding 2

Aviendha steals Marin al'Vere's face and offs Tam in revenge after feeding him a mutton pie made from his favourite sheep.

53 minutes ago, Bruan said:

Sure. To our modern, post sexual revolution dating sensibilities. Keep in mind in the Two Rivers during the Third Age, you get caught kissing your best gal in the hayloft and Nyneave would take her stick and thump your skull all the way to the woman’s circle and have you married before the lumps had time set in...

I agree. Its just one of many interactions between Lan and Nynaeve that makes me feel like I'm watching a totally different character who had borrowed Nynaeve's braid and name. There is no way book Nynaeve would have got into bed with anyone before marriage 

I'm really struggling to understand why the showrunners decided to go for implied sex when Nynaeve entered Lan's room instead of some version of the conversation Lan and Nynaeve have where Nynaeve essentially proposes to Lan at the end of tEotW. That would have demonstrated to audiences the level of commitment the two characters felt to each other, and highlighted the challenges facing them. 

It seems that they could have got the same outcome either way. I'm struggling to find any motivation for the change beyond 'sex sells' which saddens me a little.

49 minutes ago, MasterAblar said:

Didn't Rafe say that a character death at the end of season 3 would shock non book readers? Moiraine is the only one who fits that description at the point where the tv show would be. I can't think of any deaths or "deaths" that would warrant that comment other than her.

Where did you come across this? Not doubting you, just curious to read/hear his exact wording.

WoT is certainly short on main character deaths...I guess he could be killing off someone who doesn't die in the books and being sneaky with the wording (i.e. book readers would be shocked too, he just omitted to say that). 

Or could it be Mat's (and/or Aviendha's) death at the hands of Rahvin? That would have very similar narrative timing to Moiraine going through the doorway so could quite conceivably be the end of season three.

2 minutes ago, VooDooNut said:

Easy. Back to wherever they subjectively came from. It's how the words are interpreted, for me.

Mmm, yes.  I suppose Rafe could have been channeling (pardon the pun) his inner Aes Sedai there..!

3 minutes ago, Ralph said:

 

Just re watching end of Ep4, and you don't see the weaves in most of the battle either. Presuming POV is Nynaeve, it seems she can't see them until she channels. 

 

But it is a inconsistent that in the cave we can see both female and male weaves, since nobody should be able to do that. And to say then it is omniscient POV is too contrived

To be honest, I think we're overthinking this.  I don't think its tied to POV at all - too much inconsistency.  I think they are just showing it where they want to, and not where they don't.

3 minutes ago, DigificWriter said:

 

Good.

 

Because the show's versions of these two characters aren't the same as their book counterparts, nor should they be.

I disagree, but that's down to personal preference, I suppose.  I don't mind the plot changing (even dramatically) but I want the new dialogue and action required by the TV series to feel like its true to the original character of the characters from the books.  I find it really breaks my immersion when I feel like some characters are acted very similar to their book counterparts (Moiraine, for example), whereas others feel like they only share the name and job description (like Lan).

15 minutes ago, Gothic Flame said:

  Reveal hidden contents

Tree brother too.

 

But 'not make it back from the Eye' doesn't apply to them as they are already there?

2 hours ago, Eelfinn_Ty said:

I've been thinking about this and the more I ponder the more I think they will kill Moiraine at the eye.

 

She has repeatedly said they anyone who goes to the eye with the dragon will die, so she is expecting to die. If she survives there was no reason to shoehorn in the episode about Stepin. It could have been added next season, and that time better used.

 

She has 1 comment about passing the bond and then they spend time at the White Tower where she could set up the passing of the bond. 

 

In Fal Dara Lan finds her reminiscing about their past. She then proceeded to tell him goodbye and give her blessing to his relationship with Nynaeve. She knows he will need that to survive her death.

 

Min says the Amerlyn will be her downfall. The reason they are going to the eye is because of Suan's dreams. That also makes their night together and vows more meaningful. 

 

In the behind the scenes Rafe says that not everyone will survive/comeback from the eye. Rand and Moiraine are the only ones headed that way, and they can't kill off Rand!

 

How do you out "GoT" "GoT" you kill off the person you set up as the main character of the story! I can't think of anything that would ignite more conversations than that! 

 

Now that I've written all this the same could play out if she draws too much power. That possibility was set up with Leandrin in ep4. Lan's bond would be severed. Would she be releaved of her expulsion vow? She could still aid Rand with her knowledge of DDM and of the prophecies, and it wouldn't prevent her from shoving someone through a doorway. 

 

Someone poke holes in this because I want to be wrong but the more I look at it the more it seems to fit. 

This is exactly what I think.  You've picked up on all the same hints and clues my husband and I have!

Well, actually, we have a slightly different take on it as we think she won't die at the Eye but her extended absence (whatever the show chooses to use as her time in Finnland) will begin at the Eye (possibly with viewers thinking she's died, possibly with viewers being aware she's gone somewhere else with the possibility of return).  Not sure whether they will have her go to Finnland, or end up trapped in TAR somehow, or something else, but the writers have deviated so much from the original material that I think they could come up with some alternatives if the original Finnland trip doesn't work for plot reasons.

2 hours ago, JaimAybara said:

Haha ain’t that the truth. Was it because it moved too fast for Lan and Nynaeve? Or do you not like their chemistry? 

I just feel that their dialogue and interaction is at odds with their book characters - very little of it feels like the kind of things the book Nynaeve and book Lan would say to each other (or at all).  I actually like both actors, and their chemistry, and their interactions...to me they are just not recognisable as Lan and Nynaeve from the books (either as individual characters or as a couple).

3 minutes ago, JaimAybara said:

I think they have done things very well and other things very poorly, but at the end of the day seeing my friends who I’ve convinced to watch the show really get into the world of WoT has been pretty special for me. And if they enjoy it enough eventually they may read the books too one day. But I do think it possible to get some things right and other things wrong, the all or nothing positions don’t make sense to me. 
 

-I really enjoyed added screentime for Logain.

 

-Hated Mat and Perrin’s backstories.

 

- I love how Valda was selected as another big bad. 
 

-Wasn’t crazy about Shadar Logoth.

 

-liked the Ways more than I thought I would.

 

-love Lan and Nynaeve.

 

-Rand getting flashback exposition…not thrilled.

 

I think it’s kind of a rollercoaster ride for the wrong reasons at the moment, but due to its popularity I think they will get more funding and maybe even more episodes per season to work out the kinks. 

Totally agree with you. I feel the same - there are things I like more than in the books, and things I like less. My list is completely different from yours (for example, I prefer Lan and Nynaeve in the books and really dislike what they've done with these characters and their relationship in the show) but it just goes to show what a challenge the showrunners took on when developing this - even longstanding fans of the series don't agree all the time on which are positives and negatives from the show!

4 hours ago, notpropaganda73 said:

So my partner's non-book reader perspective:

 

- This was her least favourite episode since number 2. She felt that a lot was happening without much explaining, and was left pretty confused. The cold open she thought was really cool, but she had no idea why she should care. She also didn't really remember any of the Aiel explaining from Thom in ep3. But I think the show really missed a trick by not including some reference to the Dragon being born on the slopes of Dragonmount. I'm not sure the cold open really stuck the landing otherwise. 

- I also don't think the show has done a good job with Fain, his whistling has been way too subtle unless you're a book reader looking out for him. She was confused about the flash of him in the Ways and showing him coming out of the Waygate. I don't think she's connected the dots about him slipping off during the Trolloc raid etc. Hopefully the show gives us the "here's what Fain has been up to" flashback we're assuming is coming. 

- She liked the Ways but thought we'd spend more time there. Was totally freaked out by Machin Shin. She also wants more Loial in general as she likes him, but as I said earlier is pretty confused as to his general function in the story, who the Ogier are etc. 

- When Uno showed up she said "Who's this guy! I like him" haha

- "Why are they all talking to Lan first?" about the Borderlanders

- "I don't like her, she seems shifty" - about Lady Amalisa

- She's really disappointed Mat wasn't around in this episode and is really mad at Moiraine for sending the Red Ajah after him xD

- She loved all the Lan/Nynaeve stuff. Like really really loved it. Probably her favourite part of the whole series. 

- Min's visions, without her knowing anything about the gold ring of Malkier - "Nynaeve getting married!" hahaha. Also "I hope that baby isn't Egwene's". 

- She didn't pick up on any love triangle thing through the show, she actually said Perrin is just a big softy looking after Egwene. But she thought that whole scene, from Moiraine coming in to them to the big fight, was really bad (I agree to be honest). 

- So the big reveal... she thought it was well done, but had two main criticisms. "If his Dad said that in episode 1, shouldn't we have seen him be a bit more sad at some point before now?" (Again, I agree). and "But he's pretty bland, is he really the Dragon? Why does it matter that he was born on that mountain?" Again... agreed. She really loved the scene with Min and Rand though. When Min said "three beautiful women", she said "She likes Rand!" hahaha. I think there's a wee smile from Min in that scene. My partner likes to make big statements off small actions, but she's been pretty bang on so far xD

- My favourite of her reactions was at the end though. When I first watched it I was actually getting a bit annoyed at the thought that they would all go to the Eye. Rand would never allow his friends to be put in danger if he thought he was the Dragon, so I was getting ready to really hate the show if they didn't address that. My partner was the exact same on our re-watch. When Rand knocked on the door she was so angry "Don't be a coward, your friends will die!!" but the classic editing thing of it being a different door caught her. "Oh. Good boy" hahaha. 

 

But, as someone else mentioned, she isn't actually 100% convinced he is the Dragon. I think because the show hasn't really given us any reason to think he is other than the channeling and being from outside the Two Rivers. In this way, I think with the focus shifting to give Rand more character development in S2, I actually think the show can still play on his doubts like in the books. *Especially* if Moiraine survives (I really hope they don't kill her this early), he can say "You said anyone between the DO and Dragon would die, but we both survived, I can't be the Dragon" or something along those lines. 

 

I'm sure I'm forgetting some of her other reactions but as I said, it was one of her least favourite episodes. She has loved the series so far, but I think a lot of the things that worked for book readers in ep7 didn't work for her because the groundwork hasn't been done well enough to make things stick in her mind? 

 

Both very excited for ep 8 though.

Thank you for sharing. I find it really nice to get to find out how non-readers are responding!

14 hours ago, BewareofSnowSnakes said:

Yes, I read your post when you first made it. It compelled me to examine my feelings on the scene. And though I ultimately came to a different conclusion, I agree that your point is valid.

 

With regard to criticism arising from personal preference rather than gender considerations—I understand and am appreciative of this approach. My post was in response to suggestions that these scenes were intended to elevate women at the expense of men. I tend to think that the men will have their impressive moments, too, and that we have this to look forward to. I would prefer to watch without keeping score, if that makes sense.

Completely. This is what I really enjoy about discussing the books and shows here - seeing how the same characters and scenes can resonate so differently with different people, and trying to understand where that comes from.

I guess no one apart from the the people making the show can really know what the intention is behind the changes made. It certainly seems that a lot of people are picking up the gender dynamics being altered so it seems like a genuine issue/decision with the show. I think it's fascinating that some people see it as positive while others are reacting more negatively to it. 

I'm not feeling particularly strongly either way on that particular point. I'm just finding some of the 'awesome moments' a bit silly looking (I haven't enjoyed the visuals linked to Nynaeve's use of the one power, for example, finding them over the top for this early stage in the series and her development). Similarly with the Tigraine scene, I felt it was overdone to the point of spoiling my immersion. Interesting to reflect on whether I have subconsciously set the bar for these things differently for male and female characters. My gut feeling is that no, it's down to disliking the show execution (as I loved book scenes like Nynaeve balefiring the Mydraal) but I guess it's hard to pick up on your own biases.

7 hours ago, bringbackthomsmoustache said:

He needs to "ride his horse to death" carrying her for healing.  He really needs a "true grit" moment this season.

So long as it's not Mandarb (or Bela).

2 hours ago, BewareofSnowSnakes said:

I know people aren’t trying to be hurtful and that they feel strongly about this show. But some of what I’ve read in this forum over the last several months has really stung. Here are just a few thoughts about Tigraine, specifically, and the women in the show, generally. I’m not trying to take anything away from men—please, please understand that.

 

Anyway. We suspend disbelief all the time for the fantastical imaginings of men. And it’s great! We do it all the time for Marvel movies and others like them. I’m not denying that there is precedent, of course, for badass women in such films. But their badassery is modeled after the conventional superheroics of men: safeguarding feats of combat that are admirable in both genders but that are first associated with men. That’s okay.

 

But what makes the Tigraine scene meaningful to me—a woman—is that she is being superheroic while doing the most extraordinary “ordinary” thing that a woman can do. Why not let the scene stand as a metaphor related to the strength and fortitude it takes for a person to bring a human being into this world? Why not extend the same willingness to suspend disbelief—in a fantasy narrative, no less—for Tigraine as we have done, time and again, for the men of so many of our beloved (and still beloved) stories? It doesn’t diminish men or their many admirable qualities to do so.

 

I have two children. The experience of labor was bloody and frightening and desperate and exhausting—and though both events were as textbook as any parent could hope them to be—I distinctly remember feeling with the first that I was going to die. It’s embarrassing to remember that, but the pain was beyond comprehension. 

 

The only thing I’ve experienced that is equal to the feat of strength it took to deliver those two is the otherworldly ferocity with which I would defend their bodies if they were in danger. I know my husband feels the same, but I can’t speak to his internal chemistry. All I know is that some biological imperative was triggered in those months of waiting; it doesn’t give women superhuman powers, but it is nevertheless something that is transcendently powerful. Literary fiction explore this idea all the time. Why not explore it here? Why not let a woman in labor manifest epically on screen? 

 

Some will say that this is fine but that because Nynaeve already had a super powered moment and because the “Tinkers” follow a woman’s leadership and because the Women’s Circle 

appear to govern Emond’s Field, it’s too much. But why? Is it that, on some fundamental level, this series isn’t for women? That it’s for men? Is it that when women touch it—as they are doing here—they degrade it? They make it ridiculous? Or maybe they make it filthy?

 

I’m just saying that it helps to imagine how it feels to be on the receiving end of that assumption. Across cultures and for thousands of years, women have had to contend with the notion that, periodically, they are unclean. I don’t want to feel ridiculous for enjoying this show and the women in it. My favorite storylines actually belong to the men in this series, but this other stuff is interesting to me. 

 

Anyway. The Chosen One, even though the title is a potentially tragic one, is a man. The person with the SUPREME power to save or destroy the world is Rand. Many, many women in the series and the show are terrible and cruel. We’ll see more of that and we’ll see more of the men being heroic. In the meantime, let Tigraine do her thing. And let Nynaeve do her thing. It’s okay. There’s so much story to tell.

I'm a woman who has gone through childbirth twice, too. You've explained your opinion and where it comes from really clearly.

I just wanted to say that I see the Tigraine scene (I actually think it trivialises labour) and series very differently I don't think this is down to men wanting something different from the show than women do, or it being a gender issue. I think it comes down to personal preference.

9 hours ago, DaddyFinn said:

I hope not. That wouldn't have as much of an impact on Rand or the viewers

I agree but I'm not sure why else they would have chosen to have Rand and Moiraine go alone into the Blight. Plus they have been very heavy handed with Moiraine's expectation that anyone else who goes to the Eye apart from the Dragon will die. Additionally, they have brought a lot of the foreshadowing about Moiraine's and Lan's bond breaking a long way forward and focused very heavily on Moiraine this season.

I think Moiraine is going to disappear at the end of this season for her extended absence (not via the twisted doorway ter'angreal, but by some other means - possibly trapped in TAR?).  Similar set-up though, with her saving Rand.

8 hours ago, MasterAblar said:

 

I don't think it's related to the viewings but I so hope that moment is in the show, because of how heartwrenching it is.

My first reaction to the baby viewing was to think of that scene in Tear, too. I can't think of anything else in the books more significant involving him and a child.

7 hours ago, bringbackthomsmoustache said:

Is it clear this is late stage labour?  Even if we view the part where she lowers the veil as a contraction it can be early stage while she is fighting and the birth is then brought on by the stabbing.

Not force, momentum and grip.  They were running full speed in opposite directions and all of the resulting impact was applied well above his center of gravity while his feet were not in contact with the ground / on icy ground.  Try running into a bar at shoulder height and see if you fall over backwards.

Remedial practice at "heron wading in the rushes" for this companion if he had survived.

Birth isn't brought on to that extent by being stabbed. Labour is a process governed by hormones and while trauma can rarely initiate contractions (in fact labour is more normally induced (medically initiated) following trauma due to concerns over the baby's or mother's health) it can't magically make the baby appear three minutes later. Tigraine was clearly already in labour - being stabbed at that point wouldn't speed labour up. In fact the mother being in stress (physical or mental, or both) is more likely to delay labour than start it or progress it as it reduces the maternal production of oxytocin which is required to contract the uterus.

3 minutes ago, Therese Sedai said:

Do you think the bond will be transferred to Alanna instead of Myrelle? I’m quietly hopeful because Alanna has been such a great character in the show. 

Yes, I think they'll combine Alanna and Myrelle into the same character. 

Hmmm, another episode that's left me with mixed feelings. Think I'm moving in a slightly more positive direction now.

Liked

• The acting - across the board - this week. I feel like the actors have read the books and really 'get' the characters. Sometimes their expressions just so perfectly add something to the scene - Zoe Robins subtly projecting Nynaeve's uncertainty in herself, Egwene's self-confidence, Perrin's sense of 'being too big', Rand's innocence.
• I liked Lan's retelling of his story. Thought Henney really nailed Lan's character and the writing was good, too.
• Scenery - I liked the Ways and the Blight actually (maybe my expectations are low and being exceeded!?), and the Fal Dara interiors, too.
• Min! Totally different from how I imagined her but I actually like showMin better than mine (so far, anyway). I picture her as more intense; I liked her casual, offhand manner.
• The music - not really noticed it before, but there were a couple of times this week where I noticed and liked it.

Disliked

• The writing (in places). Lan strays further from bookLan every week. I wish I could just accept that they are not writing the same character but he looks like Lan, and acts like Lan (when he's not talking) so I think this is going to carry on bugging me.
• Lan and Nynaeve having sex. Doesn't fit with Nynaeve's character (she's really quite prudish in places in the books), and I don't see why it was necessary. I'm seeing people saying it's to accelerate their relationship...erm, she basically proposes to Lan at this point in the books! It just feels like including sex to sell which I'm uncomfortable with.
• The love triangle thing. Unnecessary and adds nothing that I can see.
• Agelmar - came off like a cartoon character.
• Tigraine - having just given birth for the second time I really disliked the portrayal of a woman in late stage labour being able to take part in combat so spectacularly. It belittles what women go through when giving birth and - I may be wrong - but reeks of a man writing this without consulting women.

I'm actually wondering if the set up with Rand and Moiraine going to the Eye alone, combined with all new idea that whoever goes to the Eye apart from the Dragon will die means they might be bringing Moiraine's extended absence forward to the next episode? I think based on previous changes the writers would be happy making such a dramatic change. It would give them a shock ending (like Ned Stark's execution), and they have been very heavy handed with some foreshadowing of the bond breaking, Alanna-Moiraine chat scene, whole Stepin episode, Moiraine making sure Lan knows she likes Nynaeve etc. a very long way in advance of the event if they keep it in its original narrative place.

8 minutes ago, Elder_Haman said:

Okay, but those changes served a purpose. They gave backstory to characters who lacked one and are making an effort to dig into things that were present in the books. What purpose would Tam killing Tigraine serve?

I'm not convinced it will play out that way, but perhaps if it does the reasoning will be it will help turn Rand into Dark!Rand? Maybe there won't be sufficient time to show his gradual change and instead they'll go with a few much bigger things breaking him?

21 hours ago, templar7 said:

I can't believe how hard this is for some folks to wrap their head around. I respect the passion for the books. I'm one of you! Ive read them 6 times, now on my 7th.. I had a conversation with the author himself about hidden story points that very few people would even know were there.  I get it!  its hard to re-imagine something so ingrained in us... but seriously... Get over it!!

I'm sorry, I'm really confused by your response to my post.  What am I struggling to wrap my head around..?  What do you want me to get over..?  Sorry, genuinely lost here!

7 hours ago, Wassup said:

This is an interesting post, for me.  It is trying to look at the changes from a logical sense.  I think this is why some book fans are affected by the changes, the logic is difficult to see at the moment.

 

There was an interesting video linked somewhere, either in this forum or on reddit, where a gentleman was explaining the adaptation to tv in a way to consider some of the changes.  I did not have time to watch the whole video yet.  Briefly, he points out that we have been told there is a plan for eight seasons with eight episodes each.  That would give the production crew 64 "chapters" to tell the Wheel of Time story.  It would be adapting all fourteen books to fit this template.  So, season one is not an adaptation of TEoTW as much as it is an introduction and foundation for the series for all non-book readers.

(Here is a link to the video.)https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q7ujwHxJx0s

 

With this perspective in mind, I can consider that the producers are playing the long game with some of these changes.  These could be changes that will make sense later in the season or later in the series.  There has to be some logic to it.  We just do not know the why and where it is going.  For some of us, that direction is not clear so it does not make sense, thus it seems illogical.

I guess it comes down to whether the showrunners/writers etc. have genuinely made changes for logical reasons purely to tell the story of WoT in the time they have available, or if the changes are due to other reasons (artistic vision, wanting to feature top billed actors, modern social norms, etc.). I think that's where the room for debate and discussion comes in as no one can say for certain and people have different views on whether the story should be changed for other reasons.

On 12/13/2021 at 2:40 AM, Sabio said:

You can't have a show without the Rock, you need the Rock as Rand.  CAAAAAAAAN YOU SMELL WHAT THE DRAGON IS COOKING.  Call Ishy a Jabroni,

 

I want the Rock as Lini.