I think they may ditch Valan Luca and the menagerie, sadly (as I think that could be hysterical!).

Portal stones might go, too.

18 minutes ago, dwn said:

 

It might be possible to merge these two plot arcs. The Bowl could be among the ter'angreal Liandrin steals from the Tower. The BA hunt in Tear/Tanchico kind of peters out, and the search for the Bowl begins with Elayne using Need in T'A'R, which would be extremely hard to depict on screen.

Oooh, I like this idea a lot!

32 minutes ago, RextheDog said:

 

 

this is spot on to me.

 

they could also achieved it by fleshing out his character in subsequent series and leave him to be that silent stoic character, that would work, that would build him, but as you say, that would shelve a main character for this season, and they've already half done that with Rand for the purpose of....well, we all know why.....

 

They didnt, so thats that....like a book EF, im just saying nothing can be done about it now so we have to keep going.

 

 

theres so many things they could have done differently, i guess after the fiasco of GOT, im trying my best to see why they did what they did in this show, not wonder why they didnt do what they didnt do....

 

 

 

I just don't see why they didn't shelve him for a series or two. It's not like they are short of other characters they could have focused more on developing (like Thom and Loial, for instance).

Mixing them would make the scene in the cave at the very end more significant for Nynaeve and Alanna/Myrelle if Alanna had held Lan's bond. 

It would make for more potential empathy between Elayne and Nynaeve if both Rand's and Lan's bonds are held by Alanna simultaneously (assuming Elayne knows of this).

I actually felt the Steppin conversation with Lan about Steppin not wanting to share a bed with two other men could be forshadowing for Lan having to do that (assuming Myrelle is merged with Alanna and Lan's bond passed to her; also assuming Myrelle's unconventional way of helping Warders deal with their loss is transferred to Alanna).

Oh, I would ditch the resurrections/recreations of the Forsaken, as well. No Halima, no Aran'gar and Osan'gar. Too involved and complicated, and by the time you'd be introducing them they'd be no time to develop them or explain them on screen.

I think the Seafolk will be cut but I'm actually a bit sad about this. I don't care for them at all in the story but it could have made for some beautiful scenes. I wonder if Bowl of the Winds could be cut entirely to?

I think the Wondergirls hunt for the Black Ajah may be reduced to a hunt for Moghedian.

Tel'aran'rhiod hasn't been introduced yet...I wonder if it could be cut? I actually wouldn't mind too much. I know it plays an important role in the book but many of the events could be modified to real world settings or removed without too much impact. Perrin and Egwene have enough else going for them.

Egwene's romance with Gawyn could be ditched. It was underdeveloped and I could see her story arc being fulfilled well by her being independent.

Agreed on ditching/cutting down Shaido and Tower politics, as well as Mordeth. I'd ditch Isam, too, and the Sharans.

I think Elayne's quest for the throne arc could be massively reduced and will probably be limited to Cairhien or Caemlyn (one throne for her only).

I anticipate Alanna and Myrelle being merged, potentially with interesting consequences - Alanna holding Lan's and Rand's bonds simultaneously? Nynaeve healing Alanna in the cave at the end after having Lan's bond passed by her? Also potentially bizarre consequences like Lan being part of a foursome with Alannaand her other Warders as his therapy for getting over Moiraine (I felt this was potentially foreshadowed by his conversation with Steppin in episode 5).

Zero experience in this area but I just want it to look skilled enough and real enough not to break my immersion. I don't actually have any preference in terms of whether they go for gritty realism or flashy flourishes. The actors just need to have had sufficient training to pull off whichever of these the director is going for convincingly.

23 minutes ago, Dead Warder said:

IMO, there is no way to properly judge TV Lan fairly if you're looking through book Lan eyes. They both are two vastly different characters and must be treated as such. 

 

TV Lan is the cool guy that trips over his own boots sometimes, cuts down a handful of Trollocs and eventually gets Moiraine to safety. He's hip with the rest of the traveling Warders and is generally a likeable character. He reminds me of a strip mall red belt karate teacher giving classes next to Shopko and Burlington Coat Factory.

 

Book Lan isn't a nice dude, he runs a tight ship and speaks few words. He'll train the boys to survive without being a chatty boy and has one main objective, keep Moiraine alive whilst steering the party clear of danger... the best way he can. He reminds me of one of the great venerable squad leaders I had in Iraq '04. Quiet yet frightfully commanded authority with the stoicism of a marble countertop. 

Spot on.  They've just not done this to the same extent with other character so it's particularly jarring with Lan.

After sleeping on this, I think there's a very good chance Elaida and Liandrin are being merged as others have said, and the same for Alanna and Myrelle.

Thinking through the implications, who will draw the supergirls from the Tower?  Will it be one of the Forsaken instead..?  Will most of the BA subplot be switched for just Moghedian acting alone?  I presume Liandrin-Elaida will need to stay in the Tower to do the whole tower-schism and become Amyrlin.  It seems odd, if that's the case, that they didn't call the character Elaida as she would be fulfilling Elaida's role more than Liandrin's...

With the merging of Alanna and Myrelle I don't actually see too many issues.  It possibly actually adds something to the ending in the cave if its the same character who has passed Lan's bond to Nynaeve that Nynaeve ends up healing to save Rand.  Also possibilities for Elayne and Nynaeve to bond if the same Aes Sedai holds the bonds to the men they both love.  I am slightly concerned that Myrelle's method for helping warders get over the death of their Aes Sedai will translate to Myrelle and her Warders all 'helping' Lan get over Moiraine's loss together given the very heavy handed discussion (foreshadowing?) of this with the conversation between Lan and Steppin in this episode.

4 hours ago, bryce0110 said:

I thought giving Lan this emotional scene was a really good way of humanizing him and showcasing the bond of an Aes Sedai and her Warder. It adds a bit of character to a man who is otherwise completely stoic, even if it's a lot different from what we got in the books.
 

But yeah, I do agree the shirt rip was a little bit much. Could've gone without that and the scene would've still had the weight without the weird melodramatic ripping of the shirt.

The thing is, I don't think Lan has been portrayed as stoic in the TV series at all.  He's very touchy-feely with other characters (more-so than anyone else, which is completely bizarre), has lots of funny lines and quips, and has zero sense of gravitas, the sorrow and great weight of his sad past, etc. etc..  The TV character is fine and acted pretty well, I think, but it's not book Lan and that feels odd when other characters do seem pretty true to their book counterparts.

Oh, and agreed that the magical nature of the bond hasn't been we'll set up (or at least the almost inevitable consequences of it). I really don't think a non-book reader would have enough information to understand that Steppin's reaction to his Aes Sedai's death is actually the norm.

Sidenote related to this - why did Steppin get the OTT expression of grief by Lan but Karen didn't get similar? I get hers wasn't a formal funeral but they bothered with the candles and laying the graves out in a wheel so could easily have included a chief mourner.

Just watched after reading all the comments. I was actually quite pleasantly surprised as I felt the general reaction to this episode was quite negative but it was possibly my favourite episode so far (although that isn't saying a great deal as I'm not terribly impressed with the adaption).

A few thoughts:

- I read comments earlier on about whether Logain could still sense Rand's ability to channel even though be was gentled. I assumed his (flawlessly acted) maniacal laughing was because he could see Rand (and Mat) were strong ta'veren (don't think that skill is linked to channeling?).

- acting continues to be fine to great but the writing is what's letting the show down for me.

- I'm clearly in a minority but I thought the wolfdog attack looked ok.

- would Moiraine have been able to sense through the bond that Lan had been drugged? Can't honestly remember if this is covered in the books - maybe some precedent linked to forkroot tea but I can't recall.

- goodness, Lan is grim. I feel for the actor who is fine. It must be a nightmare for Henney if he's read the books trying to act like book Lan but given material that is so clearly aimed at creating a totally different character.

- the inclusion of Alanna's warders' sexuality felt really forced (again).

- transferring Nynaeve's first channeling from Healing Egwene of breakbone fever to Healing Lan made me sad. A little detail but I don't understand why they changed it.

- Loial was adorable.

19 minutes ago, KakitaOCU said:

The thing is, the Aiel call him that in reverence to Malkier and from their experience with him in the Aiel war where he wasn't a Warder.

As a Warder, to some extent, he IS one of the lads around the campfire.  Sure he's a better swordsman than Stepin, but I get the feeling Stepin is probably a better rider.  This take on Ivhon is a better archer.  They're all ridiculously well trained and competent.

You can't put someone in a room of contemporaries and expect them to shine.  Reminds me of the hilarity of Vault 76 in Fallout (Where every member of the Vault was an overachiever of one form or another).  Or for a WoT comparinson; Spoiler about a main character below.

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Mat is going to be the best military mind of his age, but if you had put him in a room with Agelmar, Bashere, Bryne and Ituralde, he'd be one of the boys, even if he's slightly ahead of them

 

Hmm, that's not really what I meant by the 'one of the lads' comment. I don't expect Lan to stand out that much from the other Warders in terms of skill at being a Warder in any obvious way. It's more the character just seems totally different to book Lan. 

I meant that Lan has an aloofness and detachment from other characters (apart from Moiraine). That's missing in the show. Seeing him having a fun evening round the campfire laughing and joking with the othe Warders doesn't seem true to his character to me. Moiraine describes Lan's character as thinking "he was secure, imprisoned in his fortress by fate and his own wishes,." He doesn't come across to me in the show like that at all. That sense of loss, gravity, and alone-ness is not captured at all.

Similarly, I agree that it's a good idea to show a more gradual development of Lan's and Nynaeve's relationship but I don't think the material they've added is true to character either. At no point in their relationship would Nynaeve ever tell Lan he came across as a lapdog (nor would anyone else!), and certainly not at this stage.

On 11/29/2021 at 12:15 AM, Guire said:

This is actually the kind of diversity I wanted in show over cosmopolitan mix of Two Rivers.  Loved Ghealdan being Iberian adjacent.  Give me a city state with hijab instead of veils.  I like to be able to kind of see big world by seeing cultural and racial identifiers.  It doesn't have to be monolith or demeaning.  I would have loved them casting whole Randland cultures from say Pakistan, Mongolia, Nigeria, and Thailand but change out their culture.  Tear as Haitian actors with nobles acting like Spanish Courtiers would be cool as snift to me.

I sooo agree with this! One of the great stand-out strengths of WoT compared to other fantasy series is the world and culture building and part of that is that when you read or hear 'Illianer', 'Aiel', 'Cairhiener', etc. you get a completely different and distinct image in your head for all of them. I hope the show begins to show this more as the seasons progress and we see more of the world.

I'm on total agreement on the disappointment in Lan. He doesn't feel like the same character as book Lan at all.

To an extent I understand that a stone-like, stoic character might not appeal to fans that much but I think given how many other characters there are to hook you in, it would be ok to have one character like that who grows on you gradually as the series progresses.

In the books, Lan is so perfectly described by his Aiel title - Aan'Allein, the man alone. In the show he's portrayed as just 'one of the lads' around the campfire with the other warders. The other characters aren't remotely intimidated by him. There's no sense in any character's interactions with him that they have any respect for him or his skills.

11 hours ago, Harad the White said:

Many non-book readers seem to like that in particular, as did I. You are welcome to your opinion of course, and if those words were not in the Book you are correct that it had not "been used by the book characters." It was perfect for the characters on film, imho, maybe because good dialog heard out loud, is often necessarily different than dialog read from the page. Another example, I liked was Lan's "She's not a companion. She's barely company." Was that in the Book?

I think you've misunderstood the point I was trying to make (or I've not explained it well). I don't have any issue with introducing new dialogue or even entirely new plots (e.g. pretty much all of the Logain material so far is completely new and has zero basis at all in the books but I am absolutely loving it).

The difference in my reaction is due to the fact that I feel book Logain and TV Logain are the same character. The show writers have understood Logain's character in such a way that when they show him in scenes or conversations that aren't in the book there's no dissonance as the way Logain behaves on screen feels exactly how the book character would respond to those new scened and dialogue.

In contrast (in my opinion), the show adaption fares worse for a book fan when the characters on screen don't feel recognisable as the characters from the book, i.e. when they say and do things that the book characters wouldn't. Hence my reaction the Lan and Nynaeve scene. I actually think it's good the show writers are putting more focus on developing their relationship and for that they obviously need to create new dialogue but to me that dialogue should feel like it's something the book characters could say, and in this case, it feels like something they categorically wouldn't say.

4 minutes ago, Elder_Haman said:

Maybe. Although I think

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Egwene's ability to play one of them off against the other is fairly critical to her ascent as the Amyrlin. 

 

I agree, I just think the Aes Sedai plotlines might get drastically simplified to the extent that they don't have the screentime to develop two characters to challenge Egwene. I think other Aes Sedai might be pulled in instead.

Great

• Rand - perfectly captures how I see the book character. Book Rand isn't actually terribly interesting imo, so I don't think tEotW makes for great material in the show but I'm really enjoying TV Rand a lot.
• Logain - the increased attention to Logain in the series is one of the few changes I really like. The show has done a great job of capturing book Logain.
• Moiraine (borderline with good)

Good

• Liandrin

• Perrin

Average

• Nynaeve
• Lan
• Egwene
• Mat
• Thom
• Aram
• Alanna

Sub-par

• Illa
• Eamon Valda

On 11/30/2021 at 5:09 PM, Elder_Haman said:

This is a very good list. We might add Lelaine and Romanda...

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(leaders of the two factions that Egwene has to deal with after being elevated to Amyrlin)

 

I am wondering if they might merge Romania and Lelaine?

Adeleas and Vandene would be a nice cameo appearance. Myrelle and Pevara are two that might make an appearance.

36 minutes ago, Yojimbo said:

I may have just missed them (my hearing is not what it was, and I may need to put on closed captions), but I am also missing things like "burn me!" and "Blood and bloody ashes!"   And Egwene calling Rand "woolhead" and Lan calling him "sheepherder".   Things like that are very important in story telling.  It gives you a sense of another world, another culture.   It's all part of the world building, and can also be part of character development, particularly for Rand because things like that keep him kind of grounded, reminding him that he is, at least to them, still just a man.   

I so agree with this. It just pulls you out of the WoT universe when you hear the characters using our world swear words instead of the ones Jordan came up with.

I am finding that I am mostly ok with changes to the plot provided the way the characters act and react feels true to their book character. It's wear the character says or does something that feels like the book character would never do it that I lose my sense of immersion, like when Nynaeve said she'd thought Lan was a lapdog and he smirked in response. It just didn't feel like those words or that response would have been used by the book characters.

I love the acting for Moiraine, Rand, and Logain so far. 

I have been generally quite negative about the show and think most of the changes to plots and characters haven't been great but his extra material has been superb. It feels completely true to the world of Wheel of Time and Logain from the books.

Nynaeve's wee herb pouch and everything in it was perfection.

Shade Logoth was pretty much exactly how I'd visualised it.

3 hours ago, dwn said:

Some thoughts in no particular order:

 

I continue to like the depictions of madness.

 

Decent depiction of Aes Sedai and Warders. My only complaint is the colour-coded dresses are a bit much.

 

The shawls would have been nicer.

 

Not too keen on Liandrin. In the books she has a strong mix of sinister and petulance. This version is more like Toveine. The actress does a great job, though.

 

Interesting use of Kerene. I had to crack open New Spring to see if she was who I thought she was. Likely just a re-use of a cool name and/or easter egg for the fans. Too bad she died--I really liked the character.

 

"That woman is a snake." *snerk*

 

All of Lan and Nynaeve's interactions were well done. Arguably better build up than in TEotW.

 

I do not like the design of the great serpent rings.

 

I'm fine with Nynaeve's healing circle. Sure it's a bit silly, but no more so than half a dozen other things. She got angry, healed Lan without really knowing what she was doing, and had such lousy aim she hit everyone else in the room.

 

I don't think Logain saw Nynaeve channelling--as others have mentioned, I think it's meant to imply she's also ta'veren. It goes with the whodunnit nature of the TV story, and with the DF including her in who the DO is after. There's been occasional speculation for years (well, decades) that Egwene, Elayne and Nynaeve were all ta'veran, just not as strong as Rand, Mat and Perrin.

 

The Fade scene was very well done.

 

Moiraine's puppy was weird.

 

Regarding shielding: per the books they're supposed to have six sisters holding shields on any man who can channel--since no one would be strong enough to break through that man shields. And they're not supposed to be linked since one sister melding the flows could be a weak point.

 

Tinkers are still annoying, but I like how Perrin's situation ties in so well here.

 

Alas, poor Else. Your little sister was cooler than you.

 

Agreed on Moiraine's puppy. What was that about!?

I agree Liandrin isn't quite how I see her from the books. You've nailed it when you say they've missed her petulance completely. I think they've instead aimed to have her character in the show portray a 'generic' red Aes Sedai, which works ok for me.

3 hours ago, bringbackthomsmoustache said:

except there is a minimum strength to be allowed to take the test as accepted and a higher minimum to take the test as AS - Sorilea is explicitly stated to be below threshold (as is Morgase and others) - so "the weakest AS" is a significant minimum level.

 

I thought once channelers linked it be and very hard to break a shield even if they were fairly weak..? (Maybe misremembering from books though)

5 hours ago, A Memory Of Why said:

Just thinking, it's safe to say Liandrin is having some fun dreams right? About 5 special people..?

 

Nyn's obviously the 5th which makes their convo a bit more interesting.

 

Also regarding the whole "feeling the spark", kinda guessing the AS feel similar to early book Moraine - she can channel, strong too, to old though, hasn't channelled yet, not worth the trouble (bloody wilders). 

Moraine even admits to dissuading Nyn and warns her: "once she starts..."

Though I would have enjoyed a subtle moment here, say two Reds walks by Nyn arrogantly and at the same time give her a good stare down or some such.. 

 

Interested to see how the next episode plays out with Nyn.

Yeah, I thought her conversation with Nynaeve was interesting (except the bizarre mispronunciation of her name and the lane excuse - Liandrin would have heard the name, not seen it written down - so I have no idea why the included that line).

I wasn't sure whether Liandrin had singled her out because i) she was having dreams about Nynaeve (and the other four); ii) she sensed Nynaeve's incredible potential strength; iii) she just wanted to mess with Moiraine.

5 hours ago, bringbackthomsmoustache said:

I have long been assuming that the sea folk will be omitted entirely (as a timesaver) as they are the most clearly dispensable plot line.  The use of multiple earrings on several TV show characters (and nose ring on Dana) which were unique to the book sea folk culture also points to this.  The only thing we have not seen is the ear to nose chains with medallions (which were only for the highest rank sea folk).

Yes, good point. I think Bowl of the Winds is their only really critical plot point and their role as master weather manipulators using saidar could be passed to the Kin or other channelers.