Oh, and my working premise for Liandrin getting the girls out of the tower - Darkfriend stablehand, with a sister taking already punished girls out to the farm to be further punished (ala book Else Grinwell) to deal with the gate, and some tied off shields (novices not being False Dragons) to deal with the power.

Liandrin then unwove the shields as she went back into the gate, and hilarity ensues.

6 hours ago, Scarloc99 said:

Ishy can have very very Thanos type vibes which is a good thing, possibly one of the best portrayed modern villains on screen everyone I knew could understand and sympathise with his motivations while being horrified at his methods. Ishy can and is being portrayed the same way, although I do hope that this calm exterior breaks at some point soon to show the truly insane Ishy we get from the books. 

I also wonder, will Moridin be the same actor? It would kind of explain if they are planning to kill Ishy off end season 2 to then bring a different actor back as Moridin in season 4 that they are giving him such juicy lines and content now. 

The Lanfear saa reveal makes me wonder if we get Moridin at all. Although for the final payoff (assuming they keep that), we need to have at least 1 resouling  somewhere in this series so that the finale doesn't come out of the blue

9 hours ago, Chivalry said:

Have we seen any gateways yet? I really don't remember.

Lanfear spent enough time at the cabin that she could have opened a gateway from there. But the problem would be she doesn't know where Rand / Moiraine are going. As someone not fond of horses, she's obviously not an experienced tracker, and fell for the simple "send the horses on without the riders" ruse that an experienced tracker / sniffer would have noticed due to the depth of the horses hoofprints.

I've also seen skimming mentioned; again, without knowing where Rand / Moiraine are going, she isn't able to skim to a place they will be.  And since skimming is done outside the real world, she would again lose their trail.

so, she was left with no choice to mount up and follow them

4 hours ago, mogi68 said:

 

This puzzles me the most about the end of the season, because there was a mention of the Stone of Tear in season

1.  Surely Callandor is not in Falme, right? Will they move the capture of Tear to another point of the story? Or will it take place in S3? So many questions

My working assumption is that Bayle sails them from Falme to Tear, and the season ends with Rand looking up at the Stone. I don't know if Callandor exists yet.

I'm with most of the group that Egwene's arc is heroic, not tragic, even though she died at the end. She defeated thousands of her enemies, inspired her best friend to win the entire war. And cleansed the White Tower, positioning it to deal with the traumatic change it needs to go through now that the Black exists to balance the White.

In terms of story arcs, I'm having a hard time thinking of a plot arc that ends in tragedy, unless you think of Ryma of the Yellow Ajah - and that's minor - or if you include what happens to Aviendha and Rhuarc.

In terms of character arcs, though, Gawyn is probably the most tragic character in Wheel of Time, as a hero falls to his own inherent personality flaws.  In no other case I can think of did a character on the side of the Light fail, not because of being overwhelmed and defeated, but because of their own inner failings.

As every sports fan will tell you, there is a big difference between getting beat, and losing. At the end, Egwene got beat; Gawyn lost.

10 minutes ago, Mirefox said:

We’ve known from S1E1 that innocent lives don’t matter to Moiriane.  She’s not just a manipulator in this show, she’s a sociopath.

Fundamentally disagree here - she's a woman who's chosen to carry the consequences of the Trolley Problem for 20 years, when one set of tracks holds the whole world.  She is the current de facto leader of the forces of light, and leaders don't win wars without making sacrifices. And She knows she will likely need to do worse in order to succeed before the end. That doesn't mean she doesn't care. Win now, grieve later.

And, just to see if I can get it straight in my head, the drop to 8 Forsaken makes it easier to create personal animus for our heroes, but we're missing some. Let's see:

Rand - Ishamael (Champions of Light and Dark)

Moiraine - Lanfear (a slit throat will do that)

Nynaeve - Moghedien (every good housewife hates spiders)

Egwene - Graendal (Servant of all versus slave master)

Lan - Demandred (it has to happen, doesn't it?)

Elayne - Rahvin (putting Rahvin behind the Camelyn Civil War)

Mat - Semirhage ( if she's Voice for Tuon and in charge of the Gray Man, there you go)

Perrin - Sammael  (this is the weakest link, but tie Sammael to the Whitecloaks, and it all fits)

Nice neat, personal 1 on 1's between our heroes and the Forsaken. And the only ones that don't directly fit the books are Elayne and Perrin's.  4 men and 4 women on both sides, and all of the heroes of the light become more or less equal in their accomplishments

Oh, and here's another jarring thought - there is really nothing significant plot wise that would prevent the climactic catfight at the end of Fires of Heaven being the actual end of those two characters in Amazon Prime's Wheel of Time. Season 4 Episode 8. Half way mark of the series, and snip.

18 hours ago, Scarloc99 said:

So gawyn got a mention in episode 5 so he is in the TV show world at least, I imagine we will see him soon. 

I don't think we get him and his brother until season 3. And instead of being introduced through the fight with Mat, we meet them because Elaida brings them to the Tower looking for the missing Daughter Heir, and Elayne's reunion with them is the brothers' first scene.

Mat is part of the Wonder Girls escort back to the tower (inured to the dagger and with the horn), and the fight occurs sometime in season 3 or 4, maybe even as part of the

29 minutes ago, Mirefox said:

I don't watch the trailers but from a simple storytelling perspective it would make sense to switch it up.  Rand really hasn't earned anything yet and it wouldn't make sense to give him a big victory against HLT right before a big fight with Ishy, at least not in the way the show has been telling the story.

The bigger potential risk with this is the on-going speculation that aside from sealing the DO's prison, Rand isn't going to get any big wins - they will go to everyone else. Even in the book they end up asking him why he still walks around with a sword, and so they may just be doing away with it so the greatest channeller of the age doesn't also end up as one of the greatest swordsmen of the age. 

On one hand, it fundamentally alters the story of the Wheel of Time, but on the other, it really doesn't.  Maybe the absolute climax of the entire series shows that Rand is not the only, but simply one equal among many others.  A woman who struggles to heal the world, a hero who with every breath denies being a hero, etc, etc.

If they don't want to do that, though, having Lan take this fight, and then have Rand do all his sword learning through the fencing in the Waste can close that gap.

 a random dump of thoughts based on what we've seen so far, and touching on what people have talked about in this thread:

- I've seen nothing so far that makes me think that the major story points of the EF5 will be changed in anyway. I know people are up in arms over the appearance of Rand's girls not being Rand's girls, but I'm not sold on that. and (if you handwave S1.Ep8), the Wonder Girls are right where they should be. And get back to me in 3 weeks if Mat isn't exactly where he is at the end of TGH either. Especially if Min and Mat meet Aludra in a stable on the road to Cairihien, and that Falme fortress stands in for the Stone of Tear.

- OTOH, I'm not sure Rand ever learns to use the sword. Unless they use flashbacks to Lan / Errol teaching him during the fight with Turok.

- The 3 known Black Sisters that have appeared in the series so far are not only on spec, they show is actually playing them better than the novels did.  Liandrin's been humanized while still competing with other Darkfriends, Verin is still worming her way closer to the EF5 / Moiraine  while undermining other DF's (bearing in mind the kill the EF5 order didn't come until much later; the Forsaken wanted them turned, not dead, because only the Great Lord could make use of them then). and the nuance around the other DF sister is because there is now written proof of her ability to lie.  The thing I might like most about the series over the books is how much more complex the motivations of DF's are.

- Dain Bornhald and the Children of Light; not only is Dain going to get a similar redemption arc regarding Perrin, I expect he gets a more redemptive arc for himself and the Children.  Which is necessary, because the willingness of the Children to fight for Perrin in ToM / AMOL did come a little out of nowhere

- On the Forsaken front, loved that they called out Moggy and Graendal by name, and as I posted in the ep.5 review thread, I expect the boys are mostly the generals, so I'm betting this means:

- No Mesaana in the Tower; it'll be Graendal, but will have the same Egwene confrontation. 

- Moggy will be Moggy, and Nynaeve's foil for the series

- No Aran'gar / Osan'gar - just too damn controversial and time consuming. 

- No Semirhage, her spanking, or her eating food like a dog. 

- I think we get Taimandred, and lose Shara entirely.

- For Lanfear, the number one thought is just how much more "and you loved power more, Meirin" is going to hit her, after Rand inferred he loved her.  Given where Rand and Selene left off, she's going to lose him again. In the books, Rand rejected her advances. This time, she had him, and loses.

Lan - still no idea how they fix this, but I expect he ends up where he's supposed to before this is all over

I am more optimistic that the series ends up how it should, and will be a good turning of the wheel.  the fact that they admit mistakes were made in Season 1, and Covid was a factor, and season 2 is both an increase in quality and a move back towards the books plotwise are good things

My thoughts on episode 5:

The decision to use the saa and the Dark One's gift to be a practical immortality solves a bunch of practical concerns around the characters, and will increase the need for a certain weave later on. As the urgency for Moiraine to rediscover the forbidden Balefire can make a great Rosemund Pike story arc for season 3. The Rand / Moirane stuff had some great moments, and I do so hope that we get to see Lanfear stand up from that chair in the next episode. I'd like a full look at that outfit...

With the spoiler news that Elaida has been cast confirmed, that definitely sets up Liandrin on a more in-depth, more visceral version of her book arc, and it will be even more tragic for the audience. What they are doing to add depth to all of the Darkfriends is a great decision. and Liandrin untying Nynaeve increases the dynamic between those two, while at the same time showing that the Darkfriends are NOT a unified force. This was a brilliant little change that conveyed so much that it greatly increased my confidence in the showrunners.

Speaking of Darkfriends, we got two other named female forsaken, as well as a reference to the boys. since there were 8 Forsaken statues, I expect this means Graendal gets Mesaana's role as well as her own, and Semirhage gets dropped completely, which safely eliminates the end of that particular subplot. I expect the boys to be the three generals (Sammael, Rahvin, Demandred) and probably Asmodean. Excising the two that died at the Eye of the World, and were returned removes a whole bunch of problematic stuff that they don't have time to explore well in 64 episodes. Unless Rafe intentionally wants to get into it. And then all bets are off.

On to the pivotal Aiel in a Cage moment, as I suspected / feared, they introduce Aviendha instead of Gaul here, and she kicks all kind of ass with Perrin's help. I think this was overdone - having the two of them take out an entire platoon of whitecloaks was overkill, and will have a hard time creating tension for the Aiel later on in the series. But I do believe we've now seen a second possible source for Perrin's axe - Ingtar carries one and so does Dain. So I expect Perrin to come out of Falme carrying one of them. But there is one very big problem with this - what in the name of Dog are any Aiel doing anywhere near Atuan's Mill and Toman Head? Aviendha is more than half a continent away from the farthest the Aiel actually moved in the books. I get that they're probably going to drop most of the journeys of the EF5 to Tear, but even so, this was a harsh shoehorn. And while she did exposition dump Aiel culture all over Perrin, I'll reserve happiness until i see if this stuff ever gets mentioned again.

I also like that they created a more personal relationship between Perrin and Dain, and it's not just about Perrin and Valda, and Fain. This has another opportunity to be a more genuine story arc for someone who, in the novel at least, is an antagonist for our heroes.

And now we come to everyone's favourite brown sister, Verin. This is a great story, and while it's not the spider in the middle of the web approach to knowing mysteries, we're about the get the Agatha Christie approach - little old lady plays dumb and brings everyone's secrets out into the open. Because 1 of the dark sisters is definitely going to be outed within the tower, and another one might be.

Overall, except for Aviendha being half a continent away from where she's supposed to be, this was probably my favourite episode. No it wasn't book faithful, but at least the changes that are being made are working to create more direct personal interactions between the heroes, and villains, and removing some of the more cartoonish villain aspects of the Shadow.

On 9/3/2023 at 9:26 AM, Elder_Haman said:

Me too. The renegade channelers are far more menacing to me at the end of the books. It's also reflective of how the tone of the series gradually shifts from leaning more into the horror/thriller elements toward leaning into the grander political epic.

 

That's a tough balance for the show to walk as well. And one that I think they are setting up well this season by focusing on each character's personal, emotional journey.

 

It's easier to keep the tone even if you tell it as sort of a psychological thriller for each of the EFF. 

I think there is kind of an in-story canon reason for this. For hundreds of years (at least since the trolloc wars), the Fades were the most fearful of the dark ones armies, outside the actual blight.  There were no Dreadlords, so Fades were the most dangerous, and the thing to be feared the most. But in our story, the Forsaken are no longer fairy tales, and darkfriends are no longer pathetic imbeciles.  And compared to what the forsaken can do without warning, Fades are nothing but speed and steel and shadowstepping. When hurricanes and lightning strikes out of the blue exist and want to kill you, what is to fear from something that can be fought?

2 hours ago, Scarloc99 said:

and because of that I am now unsure, in a good way, because I wonder did she lie to Lan indicating the oath rod is broken now (hence she can return to the white tower). 

Maybe they're even going with her attempt to return to the tower gets stopped by the oath, revealling to her that she is in fact only shielded, and the oath holds because she can still channel.

45 minutes ago, Agitel said:

 

My interpretation is that Nynaeve's channeling and burst of power within the arch reactivated it, even if it took a few moments to wind up.

Okay, this is at least a semi-plausible out... we'll see if there's any discussion of it at all

9 hours ago, DaddyFinn said:

https://wot.fandom.com/wiki/The_Great_Hunt/Chapter_23

 

Nynaeve steels herself and runs through the third arch.

 

Nynaeve finds herself in a beautiful meadow in a restored Malkier. Lan is there, and they kiss, but she doesn't want it. Lan tells her she is the queen of the Malkieri, and they have children. Nynaeve desperately wants to get out of the "dream," but begins to get caught up as if it was real. She misses the arch, but then she remembers everything - Egwene alone in the Tower, Rand likely to go mad, Matt and Perrin in trouble, and all of it is Moiraine's fault. She imagines blackthorns piercing her flesh which allows her to embrace saidar. Despite Sheriam's warning, she channels to force the arch to reappear and flees from Lan begging her to stay.

 

 

 

Okay.

I reference this scene from the book in my post. This did not happen in the episode. Nyn's daughter saw the arch before she did, so Nyn didn't channel it. Egwene and Elyane tried to restart it, and it didn't work. so how did the arch get reopened in the TV show?

And my biggest thoughts go in the everything to date thread, since it's where I can speculate fully. 

First and foremost, I'm more optimistic at the end of episode 3, since the most important plot development I needed is clear. Except for one little detail of how Rand gets to Falme (which we know happens from trailers) - I now can see a clear path by which the TV show and the book series end up in the exact same plot point round about episode 6, and they can move forward with the rest of the story.

the other thing the first 3 episodes have done is highlighted just how important the mix is for recorded music. allow me to explain...most of the notes, themes and characterizations of Robert Jordan's Wheel of Time are there on the screen. But like the music producer remixing a single, shifting the emphasis on certain notes, rhythms or themes can lead to a different feel in a song.  And the debate can rage over whether or not a remix is honouring, or destroying the song on which it is built. But you can't deny it's the same song.

So some of the changes they are making now are simply to increase the angle of the character arcs. So

 - increase the power of the Wonder Girls early, since they'll be reduced in importance and screen time at the end (especially if they drop most of the Camelyn Civil War)

- decrease Lan's competence, so he has a skill arc, and some danger, and isn't just invincible

- take Moiraine's channeling away so she can show its her - and not her magic - that make her a hero

-  give Mat farther to go to become a hero, so it's not just a reveal who he's always been to others.

- give Dark Friends reasons for going over that aren't always about power and conquest. 

And yes, some of the changes are to fulfill the agenda of the producers. They see how they can use this song to make their mark. It's still the same song, but the remix allows the producer to bring their vision to it.

- The homosexuality and polyamory is a common complaint I see. I don't care about it, but it is at least a logical outgrowth of facts shown in the book (pillow friends, the warder bond, and the same sex feedback loop). And for a minority of fans, it is literally world changing to see it normalized. so /shrug.

- the emphasis on women in power as heavy handed allegory. I don't  like allegory in any of its forms, but we know how this story ends, and the world as a whole now has farther to go in its arc to balance.  and it will balance. 

okay. there's some big issues to discuss in this episode. I was ready to praise this as the best episode to date for about 45 minutes, and then, well...

As much as I like Uno as a character in the books, I think what they did to him here served too many purposes to pass up, from a story telling perspective. It took out a beloved character - meaning book fans have to now question everything involving secondary characters. It sets the Seanchan up as a serious freaking threat from day 1, and it helps sever Masema from one of his touchstones, which could be important later. BUT...I have a real issue with Ishamael being on the palaquin with Suroth.  In the books, we go a long, long time before knowing that there are DF's in Seanchan. Here - 8 o'clock, day 1. They aren't just villains, or even evil. They are DARK. 

On Nynaeve's Accepted testing, (sorry to my international friends) the showrunners treated it like a Dallas Cowboys drive - great execution, perfect movement into the red zone, and then they threw a pick 6 when driving into opposing team's end zone.  HOW DID THE ARCH COME BACK?! something that hasn't happened in 3,000 years of recorded history just happens to happen for our hero. There's no Nynaeve channels it back (in the book) and no Egwene of Nazareth brings her back from the dead (the TV show). Just bang - they way back will come but twice. Because, reasons.

Rand and Logain was good; Rand and Selene were better. Verin and Moiraine felt a little rushed this early, but I get it - time's a wasting. 

a good episode, but not a great one. 

And in something that's sure to annoy book fans to no end, the most faithful character to appear on screen to date is Elayne Flaming Trakand. the actress just nailed it. 

I like the way Rand and Selene is being portrayed, and I like that they're pulling the black tower character forward much earlier in the series.

I like them setting up the brother / sister dynamic between Matt and Min; as I type this, I remember how their story arcs end, so this is pretty cool. And shouldn't interfere with later developments.

I'm okay with Loial getting violent much earlier in the series.  We don't get a lot of it until the very end, and it's a little jarring at that point.

I don't like the "I'm trying to drive you away for your own good" story arc between Lan and Moiraine. They aren't in high school, and shouldn't be this childish. 

I don't like Perrin's wolf replay visions. I knew his wolf powers were going to be hard, but this isn't working for me. 

Since I'm commenting in order, this might be the single strongest episode of the entire series to date, and kind of feels like "okay, now we can get started" kind of episode, and everything that has come before it has been a bad fever dream.

And we're back...hello everyone, and welcome to Season 2 of my comments on Amazon Prime's Wheel of Time.  Good to see many of the same faces here.

I did not find Episode 1 to be that good; entirely too much to cover, reset, and our cast spread out in 5 different places meant we didn't have much time for setting them in place, showing what everyone was doing, and then moving on the next major character. 

I am giving them a major pass on the 6 month hand wave they did - there was so much crap the final episode that they just couldn't fix if they'd picked it up and dwelt on it, that they simply went "it's 6 months later, almost everyone got better. Move on, we'll try to do better"

On 11/14/2021 at 10:09 AM, Sabio said:

Sorry to be the #2 in the series you can't of been captured 3 times and constantly abusing those who are there to help you, like Thom.

But apparently you CAN be number 1...

Dumai's Wells, Far Madding, Semirhage with Domination Band

and

Mat and Perrin in  GH, Cadsuane, Perrin thrown out of Tear, Hurin in Far Madding, the entire Black Tower

49 minutes ago, Andra said:

One thing - Nynaeve doesn't know, and is upset that the people who should be the most upset aren't.  She's not stupid, so eventually she'll figure it out.  Much the same way Cadsuane did.  But she doesn't know right now.

However, your number 5 seems to be correct, since Alivia apparently knows.  Since she got him the supplies (and money) he needed in order to disappear.  And she is supposedly the strongest female channeler born in the Third Age.

 

Given Cadsuane's "alliance" with Sorilea, I doubt she would discard Egwene's plans for the Wisdoms, but I wouldn't be at all surprised if she tries with the Sea Folk.  The Kin are a more interesting question, since they are pretty much already attached to the Tower's authority.  Just no longer in secret.

 

After her conversation with Rand right before he left for Shayol Ghul, she seems much more open to being friends with the Black Tower than people might think.  And certainly uninterested in being their enemies.

I'm expecting that Nynaeve figures it out about 10 minutes after she start's her convo with the injured Aviendha "I chose you because you couldn't run away, now talk" It was an obvious off panel conversation, imo.

Alivia may be among the most powerful channellers, but I was referring to political power, not channelling, since Rand's continuing involvement would be a geo-political concern.

45 minutes ago, Andra said:

Yeah.

In the scene where Rand and Loial meet.

 

Loial: Why would The Travels of Jain Farstrider make you sad? It's a first-class adventure.

Rand: No, I... A girl I know used to read this book every day. Thought she was Jain herself reincarnated.

Except for one major problem - Jain isn't dead, so Egwene cant be Jain reincarnated. Whether or not Jain is actually Jane is still TBD

1 hour ago, AdamA said:

While I get this stuff is unbelievable, I don't get why it's a problem now. When did the expectation come about that only plausible things happen? Is this because of the early Game of Thrones seasons? The Expanse? They were too realistic and now all fantasy needs to be? The Peter Jackson films included the fellowship getting avalanched on in Caradhras while walking a 2 foot wide goat trail, and they just walked away. The Hobbits didn't even wear shoes and never got frostbite. Frodo fell into Mt Doom and held onto a finger-width hold with one arm and pulled himself up enough to be pulled out by Sam after getting one of his fingers bitten off and it was probably hot as an oven in there. When did Frodo become an Alex Honnold/Bear Grylls crossover?

 

Straining credulity or even just flat-out mocking it has been part and parcel of hero's tales and fantasy for as long as the genres have existed. I think Indiana Jones hung one-handed off a cliff at least once per movie, and he was just a college professor, not an immortal species with superhuman climbing strength and reflexes. When did it start bothering people so much? Did you just not scrutinize stuff you saw or read as a child and now you do?

The reason why it matters is because in a world with magic, you have to protect the natural laws a lot more, or else your audience just thinks it's all ridiculous, because there's never any dramatic risk. Jones hanging off things (literally, a cliffhanger) is a conceit of the action adventure genre.  And while there were terrifying arcane macguffins, the world wasn't awash in magic.  Consider the Fast and Furious franchise; even less believable physics than GoT or Indy, but people accept the conceits of the car genre (and have since Bulitt, the original Gone in 60 seconds, and the Dukes of Hazzard) and laugh instead of mocking.

For non-traditional fantasy fans (indeed, those who came with LoTR / GoT), they don't accept all of the conceits of the genre. So they are willing to accept the obvious supernatural elements of a story, but not those related to the more than human physical feats of heroes and monsters. The Expanse exists in a lot of ways as a response to the silly Abrahms ST movies - as a genre gets too unrealistic, there is a counter-punch back towards a more grounded setting. It applies to fantasy just as it does anywhere else. (Bourne versus Bond, for example)

It's a fine line to walk.  Too much reality makes it not fantasy, not enough makes it silly.

There's three things about Rand walking off the way he does that I'm okay with:

1. Rand has just gone through, and survived, the most traumatic experience of any single human being in the last 3,000 years. His sanity depends on figuring out who he is when he is not the DR. There is nothing about the ending that says he doesn't come back, or doesn't help later on.  But it is critical to figure out who Rand Al'Thor is. This is especially true since he could now have T'A'R level wish fulfillment in the real world.

2. Depending on where you put Aviendha's level of influence and standing among the Aiel post Last Battle (and remember she carries their honor at Merrilor) 5 of the 6-10 most powerful women in the world know that Rand is alive, leaving, and are fine with it. The Amyrlin Seat, the Seachan Doomseer, the High Queen of the Borderlanders, the Queen of Andor, and the Rising star of the Aiel Wise Ones all want him to go away and heal. Well, I'm not sure Cadsuane wants him to heal, but definitely wants him to go away.

3. With all of the changes in leadership - almost every ruler dead in the 2 years covered by WoT - it is critical that they work out their new relationships and approaches between each other without the expectation of the Emperor Lews Therin Telamon being at the top of the power pyramid. For Rodel, Darlin, the guy in Illian, Perrin / Faile, and Lan, they need to figure out how to be independent kings, and not vassals. Even the channelling community needs to self-determine their new relationships in the world, since I doubt Caddy would carry forward with Egwene's plans for the Towers relationships with other societies.

The first time I read this, I kind of thought Rand had in fact walked into the Dream, like the King under the Hill. That's why the Caddy scene is so important to have an outside real world observer see him.  So I expect it's a couple of years finding himself, and reconnecting with his friends on a personal level, probably before settling down in Andor with Elayne. And I expect in the Outrigger novels, there would have been a personal connection scene between Mat and Rand that would enable Tuon to realize Rand is still alive, and watching.