3 minutes ago, Samt said:

Good satire is indistinguishable from earnest opinion.

Yea, well, Scooby Doo can doo doo, but Jimmy Carter is Smarter.

To preface, I had absolutely no faith in this television adaptation and I never gave it a chance. I saw it as a cash grab and nothing more. I even made a post or two on this forum warning people. I didn't want people to get excited for this and support it because I was afraid it was going to be a complete disappointment. This story deserved better and I got the strong feeling that the people behind it just wanted something like A Game of Thrones and didn't give a crap about the series. 

I can't speak to specific examples, but I'm fairly confident that the television series isn't following the books because the television series is only using the books as a framework to develop a money making television show. They are trying to shape the television show to the things they think will grab more viewership instead of making a faithful adaption of the story we all love. The only alteration I would have liked to see is the Aiel being black because, let's face it, red-haired, fair-skinned people would have died off via skin cancer in the the Three-Fold Land or they would have turned black. Also they could have casted Jaden Smith as Rand, but I digress. 

I use amazon prime quite a bit and I keep seeing trailers for the show and I cringe every time.

On 12/3/2021 at 11:10 PM, HeWhoRunsWithTheSpears said:

Does anyone else feel that this plot point is one of the worst in the entire series? I'm sure it's been brought up countless times, but I just want to give my two cents on it. I don't understand why Jordan felt the need to connect him to Elayne and Aviendha. CLEARLY the only real connection he has is to Min. They actually have a pretty decent love story going. There is absolutely no endgame for his "relationship" (if you can even call it that) with Elayne and Aviendha.

 

I read this whole series as an adult and this bugged me the entire time. It seemed like a teenager's fantasy (being written by a man in his 50s-60s, all the more creepy). It's not like Rand's relationship with Elayne and Aviendha even served any sort of fantasy narrative purpose. 

 

Someone convince me I'm wrong?

Honestly, this was something that irked me and was one of the first things I ranted about on this forum. Jordon poses a really big question IMO in terms of why we struggle to live the way we do (or in Rand's case, "What is Rand fighting for?"). Ishamael's reason for going over to the dark one was a logical one. Given the trend in the pattern, eventually the dark one will break free, or in terms we can identify with, we will all eventually cease to exist leaving behind nothing, so why bother with anything? It's all vanity in the end. 

I was hoping for some profound and insightful answer to this question, but instead the answer that Rand finds is in all the memories of him banging hot chicks throughout time. I mean, I get that Jordon was saying it's all about love or whatnot, but then even Jordon seemed to think that just one love wouldn't be enough for Rand to endure all the crap he endures. So Jordon/The Creator was like, "Alright buddy, you do this thing for me and I'll get you 3 smoking hot chicks of unique or high status, the powers of a god and to hell with Egwene cause we stopped caring about her after Caemlyn in EoTW." 

This topic makes me uncomfortable... That said, I have fantasized about owning 3 dogs and naming them Rand, Perrin, and Mat. 

On 9/4/2023 at 11:57 AM, JyP said:

I think we can go earlier as a source for Mat's luck.

 

Whenever Rand and Mat are traveling together after Shadar Logoth, being hunted by Darkfriends : remember the time lightning crashed and they were able to flee ? We expect that it is Rand unknown powers at the time, but it could be Mat's insane luck ?

 

...

 

Possibly, but then Rand got super sick afterwards which is indicative of first time channeling. 

On 9/4/2023 at 11:57 AM, JyP said:

...

 

Note that we have 3/5 taveren's in Emond's Field, with Rand being the biggest one by far. What if Rand subconsciously granted taveren powers to his friends over time, with the lightning scene being whenever he triggered Mat's insane luck ?

I've actually brushed this idea once of twice before. Right now it's only a vague snippet of one or two ideas tied to a bigger point/understand, but I can't remember enough of it right now to succinctly describe it. 

On 8/27/2023 at 6:49 AM, Scarloc99 said:

Re reading TGH mats luck kicks in even as he slips into darkness as they chase the horn. Hurin remembers later on in MOL that he wouldn’t play dice against him. So it is not post healing but pre. 

Good point, but I've always felt his previous gambling was just in his nature. He was a skilled gambler, knew how to play the odds and just loved games. He naturally would develop a good intuition for when he has a streak going. Then he notices post healing that his luck is abnormally in his favor.

On 8/25/2023 at 6:55 AM, Lightfriendsocialmistress said:

I love the development of mat’s character throughout the series. We have 3 taveren and they all come with their own unique abilities. I never really knew what explained the luck factor….Perrin has this ancient wolf thing and Rand is the dragon effing reborn, and those two are so serious and intense. Then mat has some deeply rooted skills and what not but the luck thing just is what it is and can’t be traced to anything else in the universe. Plus he’s not as brooding or serious as the other two and it was refreshing for me as the reader. Not that he doesn’t have his own internal conflict about his role, but I enjoyed the less defined and explainable aspects of his “superpowers”

Right, of the 3 Ta'veren both were dutiful, but Perrin got into puzzles and hanging with wolves while Rand's shtick as a doomed doom-bringer, doomed to doom for the sake of postponing more doom wasn't really carved out and shaped until his world got flipped turned upside and had to move in with his Auntie (Moraine) and Uncle (Lan) in Fal Moran. So Mat definitely served some much needed comic relief and offered some interesting juxtaposition as a Ta'varen who refuses to accept his role and keeps trying to run from it.

I think Mat's memories of his past lives play a role here. In almost all of those lives Mat remembers enjoying gambling and fighting. Maybe Mat's intuition and character are products of his current life through the lens of his subconscious access to memories of past lives. Maybe all of our intuitions and personalities are shaped by memories of past lives we're consciously unaware of. Whatever it is for Mat it gets taken a few levelers higher by the snake/fox peoples. 

And as for the origins of the "luck" factor, I think a sense of luck is just a common thing for people have. I personally I think I have above average luck. I also have frequent "gut feeling's" about stuff that I feel confident about (though if there were some rigorously arrived at measurements I wouldn't be surprised if I was just right 50/50). Of all the inherent character qualities to have of the 3 Ta'veren I feel like this is one many would realistically identify with. 

And read the spoiler for one of my favorite Mat moments. 

I wasn't let down by Demandred not realizing he was fighting Mat all along. I really liked that part where Demandred is convinced he is fighting Rand because of the tactical brilliance being demonstrated. He says something along the lines of, "Now, I'm certain that I'm fighting Lews Therin, because only someone who had lived as long has he could be fighting this well."

Also, I feel like Demandred's arc was really about Demandred's internal conflict and not his external conflict with Lews Therin. Besides, Demandred kind of came out of no where to begin with. There were hints here and there, but he didn't really come onto the scene until the last couple of books from what I remember; though it has admittedly been a while. 

I also REAAALLLY liked 

I picked up on the hints (ie: people questioning why Mat had given the instructions he had regarding the position outside of the actually battlegrounds by the river) but I didn't put it together, so it was a real treat to see how that played out.

What I really love about this series are the moments and scenes. Over all I think there are a lot of issues in the story, but some of these scenes are just so good. Like when Lan is fighting Demandred and Demandred is like, "... bruh... who TF ARE you?!?!" because he can't believe Lan's skill. Another example of a scene I love is when

Yea, Mat's character really did a 180 from that point on and personally I loved it. Mat's character just kept getting better and better until he was finally my favorite character by the end. 

On 8/22/2023 at 1:02 AM, Scarloc99 said:

So from a story perspective mats powers did just seem to appear, I feel it’s more than Ta’veren because it is so focused on him. I always wondered if the dagger somehow had something to do with it. 

I feel like much of Mat's character could be explained by the dagger's influence up to that point. The entire time Mat had the dagger he was more of a source of conflict. Also I feel like the entire idea of Ta'veren kind of meta or 4th wall breaking. It's almost like the characters' word for "plot armor". 

On 8/22/2023 at 1:02 AM, Scarloc99 said:

...

From an author standpoint I really wonder if Robert Jordan had any idea what he was doing with Matt before he started Dragon Reborn. It feels like he starts the character in one direction, picking up the dagger and getting infected. Then it always felt in healing him RJ went “what now” in trying to figure out his role moving forward. I wonder if in these early days he really thought about the mechanics of the ability. 

I think a read somewhere that RJ wrote Eye of the World as a fun project to reexplore the ideas of LOTR. That he didn't think it would be as big of a series as it wound up being. 

On 7/22/2023 at 2:58 AM, Lightfriendsocialmistress said:

I will add my two cents just to throw it out there, knowing I am alone on my own island 😂 I kind of like to see it as Rand mastering the “dream” of life, if viewed through the aiel interpretation of life being a dream from which all will eventually wake. I can’t remember the exact culture but the people who live where one of the chodan kal is buried viewed it as an illusion as well and when the sphere “came online” it was said something like the time of illusion is coming to an end. That being said, we know that mastery of TAR is possible once someone comes to realize that as a dream like world it responds to consciousness and they can create anything they desire there out of their own minds. In addition we have many spiritual beliefs in our own world that align with this idea that reality is fluid, dreamlike, and responds to self aware beings using their consciousness to mold and create their reality. For example when we see beings such as the Buddha or Jesus who demonstrated the ability to alter reality, this belief explains it in a similar way, that they learned mastery of mind over matter. This made me get to the point where I enjoy my own little belief that Rand has achieved mastery of this dream world just as mastery of TAR is possible. Just one of my pet theories, every so often I like to believe my own version of events. 😊

You know everything that Jordon wrote about in terms of the dream world really reminded me of lucid dreaming practices. I wonder if Jordan was a lucid dreamer himself. 

On 7/19/2023 at 1:54 AM, Masha said:

... Rand bending a knee before Suon, so Alivia got relegated to collecting supplies for Rand.

but Rand DID bend the knee before Suon and it was an awesome fulfillment of prophecy.

On 11/23/2022 at 2:13 PM, Elendir said:

When Morgase was disguised as Perin`s maid, this was discussed. I don't remember exact wording, but Perin discussed Rahvin situation in front of her.

I have a vague recollection of Morgase getting stunned when she overheard that one of the forsaken was in Camelyn and I think she put it all together in her head. 

1 hour ago, SinisterDeath said:

 

That mental image is just that.  

Right, I don't mean to suggest that it is really much more than a mental cue to help someone achieve something (like how I use mental cues while lifting weights to help me get into the proper form). But Jordan's illustration of it seems to collectively reflect a "delicateness" in the nature of female Aes Sedai. While Nynaeve's visualization is very different. There is no delicateness in it. It's harsh and punishing. Not unlike the Aiel's culture which could support the reasoning for the Aiel taking to Nynaeve at first (eg: Avienda and her group noted that Nynaeve acted and spoke like a wise-one when they first met). 

I always chalked this up to her personality, but if Nynaeve is a new thread in the pattern could her visualization and personality be a kind of sign of changes to come for female Aes Sedai? But before this thread gets really derailed, I'd like to add another possible novel thread in the pattern: Perrin.

Not because of Perrin's connection with the wolves, but his power-wrought weapon towards the end. I wonder if Perrin was a new thread of the creator's design to fulfill a certain role that would be necessary for Rand's success in Tarmon Gaidon. 

Many of the main characters seem to have hints or signs that they are reincarnations of previous significant figures in history. Mat and Egwene being the reincarnations of the former King and Queen of Manatherene, for example. I also wonder if Elyane could be the reincarnation of Illyna. 

To be fair, most of the characters don't really have hints, but then none of them really DO anything novel like curing stilling and the madness. My memory is fuzzy, but did Nynaeve do something to reverse compulsion as well? 

Anyways Nynaeve did things that were previously thought impossible to do and her image of herself being a thorn rather than a flower bud might be an indication of a new evolution for female Aes Sedai. 

IMO it was the best counter argument Jordan could give to Ishamael's: Life is worth living and fighting for because the world is full of beautiful women to bang. 

From time to time an Aes Sedai would ask themselves if certain things were something new in the pattern or something very old and forgotten (eg: Perrin and the wolf connection). I suddenly started wondering if Nynaeve was that "something new".  She does things that no one thought possible and seems to pick up on older things like using balefire quicker than others.

She also uses a different mental image when wielding the one power (or whatever it's called for women; it's been a while since I've had my head in this): thorns instead of a flower bud opening up. Previously I had always chalked this up to Nynaeve being... Nynaeve, but then I can't recall any other female Aes Sedai using a different mental image. 

Then I started thinking what are some other novel things that crop up in the series? Presumably the ability the wield the one power is something new to the 4th age (or whatever age the book is set in); or at least it's new in terms of the 1st age (presumably ours, or whatever age ours was supposed to be set in). 

Thoughts?

On 6/27/2022 at 11:25 AM, SilentRoamer said:

Hello all, 

So, we know that Lews Therin talks to Rand (I think we can safely rule out Madness due to the weaves and knowledge LTT imparts to Rand). Something I have been thinking about though - does Lews Therin (during his turning of the Wheel) also hear the voice of Rand? Did the voice of the Dragons Soul Reborn have its share in driving LTT mad?

We know most male channelers just go mad via the taint - however in the case of LTT/Rand, their soul is the Champion of the Light, so I posit that for LTT/Rand the madness is typified by their connection to each other, which operates outside of Space and Time but still within the pattern and so has no First Origins. We know that souls exist outside of Time and Space which is why the DO is called Lord of the Grave and why Balefire removed people with the pattern.

Actually I am not sure where I am going with this - kind of feel like I almost have the metaphysics down, just something small missing. 

Any thoughts?

 

I have no "in-world" evidence to point to to definitively support your claim, but I actually really love this idea. Because what was Ishamael/the DO really focused on doing to Rand once he successfully touched the power and over powered them in a fight? He started making him distrust the people he loved. 

As Rand made his way from Moraine's camp to Tear he was haunted by nightmares of loved ones trying to come and kill him. He was driven so close to the brink that he nearly killed Perrin (or Egwene I can't remember) in Tel'aranroid. 

And then assuming that time doesn't necessarily have to be be experienced in a linear manner this is plausible IMO. And really cool! But again, I can't say with much confidence that this is what RJ had in mind. But it'd be an awesome mistake and an even awesomer pre-set idea. 

The chapter ends with Thom beginning to tell Mat about a wager he made with a Domani woman. Does anyone know the significance of this? Does it relate to something later in the series or does it reveal something interesting about Thom or maybe Thom is telling Mat this story for a specific reason...?

I don't think an Egwene and Mat romance would have undercut her character in anyway. I like the idea because there seems to be hints that in a past life Mat was a King of Manatherene and Egwene was the Queen.

Also, Mat, the master strategist and commander as a warder with Egwene heading the Aes Sedai mixed in? How could that NOT have been awesome? Who knows how Mat and Egwene would have used that warder bond to their advantage. 

19 hours ago, Dagon Thyne said:

Egwene had already decided she didn't want to marry Rand and wasn't in love with him before Any real romance had started between him and the other three.    So he was'nt stolen from her.

I strongly disagree. From one of the earliest meetings between Rand and Min, Min had dropped strong hints that they would wind up together. Elyane's final words to Rand at Camlyn were, "...if I told my mother I thought you were handsome she surely would have confined you to the dungeons..." And then Avienda... well.. I don't understand those Aiel, but it was clear she was wanting that D pretty soon after meeting Rand and was ashamed for feeling that way about someone she considered a "near-sister" to be romantically invested in.

There was a distinct moment where Egwene finally "let go" and I believe that it is illustrated in a dream that Rand has of skinny dipping with the 3 would-be "near-sisters" while Egwene ran away crying. I'm pretty sure it's in book 4. Rand even tries to go after to her, but he get's dragged back into the waters with those gorgeous young, naked women.

That dream happens after (what I believe) is a culmination of a series of small influences from the would-be sisters and maybe even the creator. I don't know. 

I've been thinking about it a lot lately and I'm trying to work out a way where it would make sense for Mat and Egwene to have been together. Cause imagine... Mat as Egwene's warder... both of them heading the front at the Final Battle... But maybe I'm just being silly. 

Besides, then how would the 9 Moons get reconciled with the Dragon Reborn and other stuff I'm probably not realizing...

Think not of glory, but salvation.

Was she though? Or was she conned into thinking she was happy? Forced to make the best out of a crap situation?

I'm just getting into TDR for my second read and I'm wanting to look out for Egwene's internal monologues about her feelings about letting go of Rand. If I recall correctly she subtly and slowly starts to adopt the logic suggested to her by Elyane and Min; eventually deciding to give up Rand. And what does Rand dream? He has a dream of skinny dipping with Elyane and Min while Egwene runs away crying. Is it possible that, that really was Egwene? Perhaps a subconscious manifestation of her true feelings? Maybe Egwene didn't even allow herself to truly acknowledge how hard letting go of Rand was.

Egwene is strong and determined to not let things get in her way. Even her own feelings. Was her life really worth it? Or does she and the rest of us just try really hard to make it seem Egwene's arc was fair in the end? Are we good people if our survival depends on the sacrifice of the innocent? What does survival and ultiamtely life really mean to us? Are we living just to survive? Or are we living to shape our destinies? Will we build a world where we are sacrificing our innocence for the sake of survival? Or will we build a world that reflects our ideals and sense of justice and honor?

On 4/1/2022 at 5:04 PM, Juan Farstrider said:

@Andra I guess I think of tragic in the "Greek tragedy" sense, where the downfall is from some character defect and the end is a loss. The movie Kingpin is not a tragedy because there's a redemption at the end (literally guy and girl unite and drive off happily ever after), though it has all the hall marks of one until it reveals itself as a "hero's journey". 

Well I mean that's just my point. Egwene was probably the most consistently honorable character throughout the series. First 2 gorgeous big city women (one of whom is a going to be a freaking queen) start poking and prodding her relactionship with a boy she expects/hopes to one day marry; all the while making it seem like friendly banter, but deep down inside THEY ABOSLUTELY WERE ANGLING TO STEAL HER PROMISED LOVED. But the pattern, the pattern... I get it... And poor Egwene really has no way to defend herself here. She can't just outright say, "stop trying to steal my man!" to a couple of girls who she wants to be friends with. And remember.. Egwene is basically alone in a world she barely understands. And she's basically a kid. 

Then she's kidnapped, tortured and enslaved by the Seanchan. Later she's beaten by the Aiel who eventually respect her.  And she's beaten again later by Aes Sedai. Then she becomes Amyrlin during one of the most trying times anyone could become Amyrlin. 

Sure she gets a whole lot of respect and admiration... but from all the people who basically tormented and made her duties within the pattern as difficult as possible. And does she at least get to bang some really hot dude? No, she gets Gawayn a rudderless fool who never really took to time to think about what he was doing and for what end.

I'm just saying that RJ did Egwene dirty. She deserved better. Maybe she should have at least gotten to have hot sex with Galad just once! Egwene is probably in the afterlife thinking, "bruh... that was lame AF! I'm not doing that shit again..." And Jesus is right there next to her reading The Winds of Winter and is like, "yea, me either." 

Here is this sweet, innocent, small village girl promised to a tall, handsome, noble young man. Suddenly they're swooped away on some adventure leading to 3 gorgeous young women who immediately start sizing him up and portioning him out claiming, "oh the pattern, the pattern!" Mean while they pull the bait and switch on her. They flash Galad in front of her to make her head swim and bombard her psychologically considering the culture shock she must be through through. Plus... trollocs y'all... That's some scary stuff. And she ultimately ends up with Gawayn; who, it could be argued, was a significant handicap for her in the end. And then sacrificing herself to help save the world. 

Also she's enslaved, tortured, burdened with some of the most significant problems facing their world and who knows what else I'm forgetting. Egwene deserved so much better... ?

You know I just had a shower thought. Or an after shower thought. As I was drying off my lithe, muscular body, I thought about how advantageous Perrin's ability wound up being. And really, the only person who could have taken out Slayer. Slayer was mentioned as being prized by the DO. The big C-dawg probably made Perrin as Slayer's counter. But let's not reduce Perrin down to simply a card in the Creator's deck. He's also just awesome. 

I think if it had happened like that you'd be hearing a bunch of people complaining about how obvious it was. 

1 hour ago, Chivalry said:

 

Mat thought about going back with Perrin to EF. But when he went through the twisted door, he was told he would die if he didn't go to Ruidean. And Rand had the entire world to care for. That's why he "sent" Perrin.

 

As for Egwene, she never looked back, as far as I remember. Eyes firmly fixed forward.

That's a good point. I had forgotten that Mat tried to go back and it makes sense why Mat had to go to Ruidean. 
 

But still for Egwene she basically defeated a Forsaken. Newly raised, but still one recognized by Shai- I mean.. the Dark One...