1 minute ago, dwn said:

(and goes loopy in Baerlon because of it).

Rand seems in good spirits after Shadar Logoth and Mat notices it. 

"What's that?"

"Downhill!"

5 minutes ago, WOTReader2 said:

That is the thing, though, if it doesn't make it better, what is the point? Considering time is limited, every moment that is used and every use of 'or her' is a waste of time. 

 

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

Most people will probably miss it on the first read, but he does use the one power in the book (lightning blows up the Inn) before Caemlyn. 

 

It is probable that many people missed Rand channeling already in the show too.

Especially, if you don't already know that Rand is a channeler.

6 minutes ago, DigificWriter said:

 

And herein lies the problem with the situation in question.

 

 

The show presented us as viewers with a clear-cut scenario in which it is impossible to argue, based on the visual record, that Moiraine did not know that Nynaeve could Channel. Therefore, the concept of "An Aes Sedai never lies, but the truth she speaks, may not be the truth you think you hear" should not in any way be applicable.

Why?

It is applicable whenever an Aes Sedai speaks.   It is a central concept in both the show and the books.

6 minutes ago, DigificWriter said:

Moraine pretending that she didn't already know where Rand and Mat were when she went to seek out Egwene and Perrin is also a scenario in which said concept should not in any way be applicable because in both situations, Moiraine is either directly stating or otherwise implying demonstrably untrue things.

That is the crux.  Her words are true but their meaning is more complicated.

It matters that what she says is both 'demonstrably true' and 'demonstrably untrue' at the same time.  It is up to both the characters and us to figure that out.  Aes Sedai dialogue is always "unreliable" in that regard.   

3 minutes ago, MasterAblar said:

So you think they’ll change her fate? Because it’s hard to remain the main character when you’re MIA for half the series.

They wouldn't have to change much to keep her fate in the show while keeping her absence shorter.

It all depends on which middle and late book plotlines they want to keep or scrap.

5 hours ago, Lethira the second said:

 

This is the crux of my issue with the writing in that scene.  We already know that Moiraine is unable to lie, so when she says she 'cannot say' there is absolutely no reason for Siuan to fly off the handle.  I realise the show is making alterations to the lore and customs, but it's pretty well understood at least in NS that Aes Sedai don't pry into one another's business.  And Liandrin's behaviour in the hall?  Snapping at the Amyrlin Seat -why on earth was she not instructed to get down on her knees?  -Yes, we know why but it was pretty clumsy.

Siuan didn't fly off the handle.  Her anger was staged.  Making people think that she was mad at Moiraine was the intended outcome of that scene as soon as Liandrin called attention to Moiraine.  Siuan took the tactical opportunity presented to her and exploited it.  

5 hours ago, Lethira the second said:

It actually would have made more sense for Liandrin to point out that Moiraine is riding around with Tower property in her bag (the Angreal we saw in the opening scene) that would have also given us an insight into how the AS viewed such relics.

How Liandrian know that she had the Angreal, if we had not seen her see the Angreal?

Liandrin is looking to deflect attention from herself.  All the sisters involved in the Logain arc know about Nyneave.  And, presumably word has spread about Nynaeve's strength from contextual clues in the dialogue before this particular scene.

It helps if you look at the Hall scenes as a game that Liandrin (and the audience) has every reason to believe that Liandrin won.   That is until it is revealed that Siuan/Moiraine are lovers who are working together (and there is no reason to believe that Liandrin knows this).

8 minutes ago, flinn said:

 I personally didnt like either the Siuan/Gareth or the Moiraine/Thom relationships. Maybe if written in different ways.. but as it was, it just didnt sit well with me... BUT.. the butterfly effect is in play here.

Yes, the change in relationship can have impacts but just because a change is made that doesn't mean that the worst possible outcome will happen because of that change.  

8 minutes ago, flinn said:

The rebels will need an army and the only way they are getting an army (recruits and respectability) is with a great captain.

There may be other ways to get recruits.  Rand and Mat are not considered "great captains" and they successfully recruited soldiers and followers.  Logain was able to recruit soldiers to his cause without being a "great captain".  

8 minutes ago, flinn said:

 

They were able to get Gareth because of his obsession with Siuan. 

Yes, in the books.  In the show it could easily go like this:  

Siuan.  "Gareth, will you recruit and army?"

Gareth "Yes, that seems like a fine idea.  I will"

We can of course argue whether the books did it better or not.

8 minutes ago, flinn said:

Thom is supposed to risk everything to go and save Moiraine.

Given that they have already focused on Thom and Mat's relationship by the time they get to that point his loyalty to Mat could be sufficient cause to get him to go.   Others that went with Mat did not have a relationship to Moiraine in order to get them to go.

8 minutes ago, flinn said:

Very lazy writing.

Not really.  There are events in stories that can happen only one way and then there are events that can happen multiple different ways.   We can, of course, argue about which way is better but that does not mean that all other possible ways are lazy. 

Just now, WheelofJuke said:

Or -now stick with me because this is a REAL stretch- 

 

they could've gotten Thom a flute and harp just like in the books!

 

Rafe talked about why he decided to make the change on twittter almost a year ago.  (I think the questioner mistakenly said lyre instead of harp).

3 minutes ago, JeffTheWoodlandElf said:

To be fair, a real guitar can cost upwards of 250 dollars. That's a whole .0025% of the money they had allocated for that episode. Rafe was faced with a tough choice. Get Thom an instrument worthy of his character or give the darkfriend girl a nose ring, without which she would have had no memorable characteristics whatsoever. 

And, no one wants  a repeat of the Hateful Eight destruction of a $40,000 Martin guitar episode.

5 hours ago, Gothic Flame said:

That doesn't detract from my first assertion; If it wasn't altered to fit book-fans wouldn't have turned away. 

I would say that book fans haven't turned away just a subset of book fans have turned away which is expected at this point whenever an adaptation is made.

And, I say this as a GRRM book fan who turned away from HBO's GOT because I thought they dumbed it down too much.

2 hours ago, LedZepMan said:

Anyone else super grumpy that they all let their horses go at the way gate? As if Lan would ever let Mandarb go! 

Sheesh

Well, Mat can be a horse trader with horses now.  So, there's that.

50 minutes ago, KakitaOCU said:

 

A few points and maybe a new take on something I know has been brought up but maybe not considered in certain lights.

For Mat.  Part of this may be the actor leaving, we don't know yet and if that's the case then there is some leeway in the sense that maybe Mat wasn't supposed to leave but maybe they had no choice but to figure something out right away on the spot.

For the rest.  Several people have mentioned RJ2 saying he's trying to set the story as the whole story from the get go versus Season 1 being EotW.

If you knew the WHOLE story, and you were in a position that you wanted to push the whole story up front.  What changes would you make?

I realized sometime this weekend that there seem to be a bunch of people that say "It's not like the books" when they seem to mean "It's not like the book" (meaning TEOTW).  Yet, Rafe was pretty open before we saw a single episode that they were adapting the whole series and not just going book by book.

Perhaps, they were not fans enough to track all that before hand, I dunno.

He was also pretty open about including elements of books 1,2, and 3 in season 1 before we saw any episodes.  A lot of the 'scenes they created' amount to them doing exactly that.   It shouldn't really be that much of a shocker. 

Just take take the scene where Siuan meets Nyneave.  They meet in TGH.  They just moved the scene from TGH into season 1 and made contextual changes to make it fit with seeing the Tower in season 1 rather than in season 2.   Based on them moving bits of the Tower to season 1, we can reasonably assume that we're not going to see the AS go to Fal Dara at the start of season 2 and that Egwene and Nyneave will open season 2 already at the Tower.  That streamlines the story a little and they've established a reasonable foundation for showing Novice and Accepted stuff early in season 2.

The same with Mat staying behind, if they keep him in TV then they continue his healing/post-healing storyline right at the beginning of season 2.  It does create challenges but it is a good way to handle what would have been a challenge anyway as soon as a need to recast Mat was realized.

50 minutes ago, KakitaOCU said:

So you're asking why changes between a book written to be the only book published and written to be self contained and wrap up all issues without delving into details that don't matter for said book and a TV Show that's built from the get go to get to the end of the story are occurring.

Yes.   

Personally, I think it is more fun to speculate on what they plan on doing with the show than it is to get upset about it.  Most of the changes make a degree of sense after a little thinking about them.  But, mileages vary I suppose.

A lot of words to basically agree with you.  ?

10 minutes ago, DigificWriter said:

 

All of this qualifies as 'getting into the weeds and trying to be too clever' for me.

 

This whole situation is a plothole that the show created for itself, and it surprises me that it's not really an issue for anyone other than me, especially given some of the other incredibly nitpicky things that some people have chosen to focus on.

 

It really isn't that complicated.   It is similar to when I'd ask my English teacher "Can I go to the rest room?" and she'd respond "You can.  But, may you?  That is the question."   Sometimes, the specific meanings of words can be important especially when the show has already spent time establishing that you have to really listen to what and Aes Sedai says.

I don't see any flaw in the scenes plot causality or construction there.  

The oath rod scene?  There could be some problems there.

2 minutes ago, DaddyFinn said:

I thought it was just good Aes Sedai talk and nothing more. ?‍♂️

Which the show gave several other examples of within that same episode. 

2 hours ago, DermidAjala said:

I'm going to spoiler tag this because it's from a Pike interview so not strictly predictions, and I don't want to mess with anyone's experience if they're avoiding them, but I imagine most of us can discuss and it's an interesting point to ponder before ep 7

 

  Reveal hidden contents

 

Do we think the four "worlds" are simply the Ways, the Borderlands, the Blight and the sanctuary of the Eye (whether with or without Someshta), or do we think we might go a bit more into alternate / parallel worlds here?

 

The talk of concepts of time makes me wonder if we introduce some ideas that go a bit further than just you live, you die, you get reborn. 

 

1 hour ago, DigificWriter said:

 

I would say " Yes", and I would also view either of those statements as a lie because the show demonstrates that she did know that Nynaeve was a Channeller.

 

 

Definitionally, 'could' indicates possibility whereas 'can' has a few more ranges of meaning.   Using a pretty strict meaning of 'could' would make not make it a lie because there are a range of possible reasons for her being unable to channel at any given moment.  

A few examples...

"I was unaware she could channel (because she has a block)"

"I was unaware she could channel (because she is untrained)"

"I was unaware she could channel (because she was angry)"

"I was unaware she could channel (because I was unconscious)"

All those would be similar in construction to how she responds deceptively elsewhere in the same episode. 

With the word "can" you can do similar things to play off the different meanings of "can" to make it not a lie as she composes her response.  

For example...

"I was unaware she can channel (because she is untrained and therefore doesn't have the ability to channel)"

"I was unaware she can channel (because I never saw her have the opportunity to do so)"

Her knowledge of whether Nynaeve is a channeler or not is not the most important part of the equation really.  When she responds to questions about the location of Rand, she knows generally where he is, but she responds with a reference to her eyes and ears.   It is generally the same thing here.

Just now, Gothic Flame said:

But that illustrates that Mat has never really changed all that much.

There is no "before" or "after."

There is always a before and after especially when controlling for proximity to the dagger's influence.

Just now, FanofKnotai said:

The ones I’m referring to all mention the Eye. Rand’s in Baerlon. The one on the Bayle Domon’s ship. Perrin’s dream before they left the tinkers and Rand’s on the side of the road after Four Kings. All of them mention the Eye. The only ones that don’t are Rand’s first dream at the Winespring Inn and his last dream at The Queen’s Blessing. But you are not the only one to post that it “came of out nowhere” in the EOTW. So others have forgotten  the build up as well ??‍♂️

Perhaps, not forgotten as much as found to be not as sufficiently grounded as other plot elements.

Personally, I always thought the jaunt to the eye was more an editorial "James time to wrap this one up" decision.  Hence, why I always thought it came a little out of nowhere.

Just now, Gothic Flame said:

Umm...no.

Egwene remembers when a boy was pulled under water in a local swimming spot and no one noticed except him. She then recalled othe events and she realized (with a vague shock) that despite his reputation for being an overall slacker, he can be counted on when it matters the most.

Which you learn after the events of TEOTW or before?

Character development works by progressively revealing information about a character over time. Book fans may know information that is revealed after the events that occur in the show.  Hence, many questions about specific character elements show evidence of a relative recency bias.

This-mat = information known about the character at the current time and place in the books/show.

That-mat = information that is known after the current time and place in the books/show.

In the Hall of the Servants, when Siuan questions Moiraine, and Moiraine says "She cannot say".....  is the reason she can't say because she is bound by the oath rod?

32 minutes ago, NinjaPowers975 said:

I think the real reason Mat didn't go is because they lost the actor and had to hack together a scene to explain it. If there's no Barney at all in the next two episodes, then we'll know for sure.

 

I'm hoping they were able to get access to him and grab a few scenes to drop into the next couple of episodes, but I don't think so.

 

I'm sure they've come up with some kind of internal motivation to explain everything without ruining Mat's character. They've had plenty of time to stew on it now, and I can see a lot of ways to make his decision feel relatable.

I think this as well.   There is a lot of circumstantial evidence to suggest this.

The best way to look at it to me is to judge the show on how they handle the change going forward.  For example, Mat staying behind in Tar Valon opens up plotline opportunities.  What they do with those opportunities mat-ter.

7 minutes ago, DigificWriter said:

^ I think you might have a misconception about what a Plothole is.

 

Here's an example of an actual plothole from within the show:

Moiraine clearly identifying 'listening to the wind' - which she knows that both Nynaeve and Egwene can do - as being Channelling, yet outright stating that Nynaeve hadn't Channeled prior to her 'healing explosion'

 

These two things are not only incompatible with one another, they're incompatible with the Aes Sedai not being able to outright lie.

Yes and no.  You are correct (in my view) that it is a possible pot hole but it is also a resolvable one.

Given the nature of the three oaths, Moiraine's statement may be still be true if there is a set of conditions that exist in her head that she did not express verbally.   She never says Nynaeve that "had not channeled."  She said something like she didn't know.   But, what exactly did she not know?  

1 minute ago, FanofKnotai said:

But that still doesn’t change the fact that when he was young he still did the right thing even if he didn’t want to. Regardless of when we find out about it. The show has him staying behind when he would not have is all I’m saying. Besides the casting issue’s I’ve heard some people suggest, I can’t see why they made this change. 

I'd argue they haven't made a change as much as we don't know the significance of his actions within the plot at this point.  In hindsight, he may be the smart one.   Or, his "heroic" struggle may not be at the Eye but with the dagger.   

1 minute ago, FanofKnotai said:

I believe you may have forgotten a story told by Nynaeve I think about “early Mat”. I forget who she was talking to when she told them the story of how someone in EF tricked Mat into thinking they were drowning only to laugh at him when he rushed to save them. Mat swore he’d never be a hero again and they could just drown for all he cared.  Then later in the same story, that same person actually was drowning and Mat, without thought, jumped in to save them again. This was Mat when he was young before leaving EF. So to use term “early Mat” to justify this change is incorrect. He has always been who he is. The only thing that changed about the core of his character is his luck?. Try again. ?

Not forgetting anything. ?

When the story is told is as important as when the story is said to have happened.  That is a natural consequence of how author's progressively write stories.

38 minutes ago, Jaysen Gore said:

I would politely disagree.  I think the negative vocal online communities is way smaller than people think, and are the most rabid of the fan base.  A quick review of site stats and Youtube channel subscriptions make me think there are fewer than 20,000 WoT fans who care enough to participate in the online communities. And they are the ones most likely to display what I think of as "The Black Album" syndrome, where changes made by an artist enrage diehard fans who want the series to stay their own little private thing, instead of gaining mass appeal. Apostasy infuriates them, and every little nitpick or change is a reason for torches and pitchforks.

 

And for the record, the Entertainment Industrial complex is well aware of that behaviourial pattern, which is why they are justified most of the time in not caring what we think, in the grand scheme of things; we're not even big enough to be a rounding error.

 

Probably, good to remember the pareto principle here.  80% of outcomes come from 20% of participants.  It can be a useful rule of thumb.

1 hour ago, FanofKnotai said:

“I’m coming, Mat thought as he ran after the thief-taker. I’ll get you out or die! I promise it!”

 

This Mat would never have stayed behind. 

Even in the books This-Mat and That-Mat are different people until the events that create That-Mat happen.

It is one of the challenges of having finished the overall series.  There was the Mat of the early books and the Mat of the later books.  Readers look back having experienced later book Mat and that colors their understanding of early book Mat.  It can be jarring then to see early Mat on screen.