13 minutes ago, CaddySedai said:

That and the television plot gods had to make Moiraine hunt down Min ?

I have absolutely no issues with hunting down Min.  It made me very happy to see her.

6 minutes ago, DermidAjala said:

 

I don't think either will get to Fal Dara. I think it's quite plausible we resume Mat's plotline from book 3 having been brought to the Tower by the Reds and Falme's finale will be condensed into Tear for the major moments.

Yes.  I think Mat stays in TV, we get the black ajah abduction of Egwene to Falme, and Mat chases after them.   Given Egwene's comments related to Mat in this episode, it is a good way to subvert some expectations while actually showing that she doesn't understand Mat's character.

11 minutes ago, wotfan4472 said:

Indeed. In the books, all that scene means is "t.v shows's version of annoying miscommunication, even in the critically bad moments". 

That's my take on it as well but it has some character justification.

Nynaeve is stressed by the conversation and she deflects by doing the "yeah, what about this other thing" to remove what she's stressed by.

Also, the surface conflict between Rand and Perrin is "Egwene" but they are both hiding information from the others.  For example, we have no reason to think that Perrin has said anything about Leila's death to Rand.  And, there is no reason to think that Rand has said anything about Tam's fever dream to Perrin.  So, there is some subtextual stuff going on as well.

Of the non-reader reactions that I've seen none have highlighted this scene as a problem.   It may be book-reader problem (since we have knowledge of the book characters) and not a general problem.

22 minutes ago, sw0mp_d0nk3y said:

Quick logic check:

 

When they are in the mines of Moria, Moraine says that it is a days walk to the Eye of the World Waygate.  Then they have to hurry and just get to the closest waygate, which takes them to a place where it is still only a days walk to the Eye of the World.  Shouldn't that have been their destination then, in the first place?

I think the original plan was to use a waygate that might be in the blight.  Maybe there was on in Malkier or in another unnamed location close by.   Lan mentions Fal Dara like it was a second/better choice once they could see that they were in danger.

That's my take anyway. 

I suspect the vision of the baby and Rand was just a subtle hint the baby was Rand.

Pretty sure the shadows trying to swallow the stars was their way of saying that they are all tav'veren.

Whether that gets explored at all in the show remains to be seen.

We get LTT and Ishy as a cold open.

Just now, gibbons said:

it isn't Egwene that Lanfear gets jealous of though, personally I suspect it will be more to do with Elaida (or whoever theye merge her with).

 

The cause of Lanfear's rage on that day is because Rand slept with someone.   Since Rand and Egwene are already doing it, that condition for Lanfear's rage already exists.

Not saying that it is 100%, but it is an easy fit.

6 minutes ago, CaddySedai said:

 

I have a feeling that the ways can be opened with a specific angreal like in the books (the stone leaf)

 

 

There's a picture floating around of Padan Fain holding a trifoil shaped stone.

24 minutes ago, Wolfbrother31 said:

 

 

#9] Min. Not how I pictured her - her prophecy for Moiraine...hmm, more changes coming I guess? Didn't love it.

 

 

May not be all that big of a change.

Egwene = White Flame = Amrylin

The Amrylin will be the death of Moiraine.

Lanfear gets jealous of the "Amrylin".

5 minutes ago, MasterAblar said:

- Reds going after Mat ?. I'm very sad that Mat can't be a part of the Eye. But on the other hand I think they can do some really interesting stuff with Mat seeing as how everyone but Rand is doubting him. Huge redemption arc incoming

 

My first thought after this was when Mat asks the 'finn for something to keep the Aes Sedai away from him (I forget how he phrased it in the book).   Having a couple run-ins with the Reds would go a long way towards setting that up.

I suppose it is time for all the takes with hyperbole.  ?

Personally, I like the old school memory montage reveal.  

1 hour ago, thievingsackofpotatoes said:

I've never read/played The Witcher but, IMHO, the first season was absolute garbage, from a television perspective. I'm hoping for a serious uptick in quality for season 2 (which reviews seem to suggest) because there were parts of season 1 of The Witcher that showed small bit of potential but let's not pretend like it was amazing television.

I was really frustrated by the Witcher's first season on the first watch.  I went back and rewatched it a second time and it improved dramatically for me.   I also had never played the games or read any of the books.

But, Witcher seems to be telling a much smaller story than WOT is trying to do.  It could easily have turned into an old school monster of the week show.

1 hour ago, Sabio said:

I would say it depends on the complaints, I give the show 5/10 and have had a few issues with it.  But nothing that would make me say gahh I can never watch this again but also I have no desire to watch the series again and again.  It doesn't mean the complaints aren't valid and they aren't giving Rafe ideas how to make season 2 better.  You could also say ohh 500 complained about this out of 5000, doesn't mean more haven't thought the same thing.  But maybe more just hasn't bothered to publicly say it.  But if enough people are saying OMg your weapons look so fake how the heck could you allow that?  It might make them think ok we went a bit too cheap on weapons or the writing here could have been a bit better.  Or they really didn't seem to like Moiraine suddenly just sipping tea outside Rand's room. It's when they make the same mistakes over and over is when they are going to lose people or that will seperate an ok series from a great series.

Some of it depends on how you define what a great series is.   As a baseline, a series that keeps getting renewed is a series that maintains a consistent viewership or increases it.   After that things can get subjective.  People love the LOTR movies, I hated them.  People love the GOT series, I found it rather meh.  At the moment, my general rating for the WOT series in probably around a 6.5 to 7.25 out of ten. 

But, as a general rule, it is harder to get everything in season one right for the majority of fans.  It is far easier to course correct many of those things in subsequent seasons.   Just look at the Witcher, they had complaints about some armor and they worked to fix it in season two.  Improvements can be expected over time. 

 Take Steppin's axes.  They were in one episode.  They were destroyed.  Solution to complaints?  Never show them again.  Problem solved. ?

20 minutes ago, Gothic Flame said:

It's a fair point.

For those that complain but stick to the show with the hope it gets better aren't providing any reason for such changes to be made.

And, those that stop watching the show because of such things are already baked into the analytics cake.

1 hour ago, Sabio said:

I believe it's supported by the number of people who are saying stuff like those axes looked like toys.  Or they wasted alot of time getting us involved in Steph them they kill him etc...  If just one person says man that sucked, you might be able to overlook it.  But if there are dozens of people saying why did they go cheap on this or add that it made no sense, then I think that supports it.

On of the challenges of thinking in terms of numbers is that if someone or a dozen people remark that x looks bad whereas 100 people don't, the numbers 1 to 12 may look significant but they may still only represent approximately 10% of responses.  

Similiarly, if 99 people all have the same complaint but they continue to watch the show, how significant of a factor is it really?

4 minutes ago, Sabio said:

And the Companion is useless, all it says is the Eye was destroyed when it fulfilled its purpose related to the Dragon Reborn.  So I guess those poor Aes Sedai sacrificed themselves so Rand could kill some Trollocs and set Ishy on fire.

I was convinced for a very long time that the real purpose of the Eye was to give enough information for Rand to rediscover the tinker's song.  ?

Sadly, RJ did not agree with me.

2 minutes ago, Sabio said:

I always wondered it myself, it was really only useful to destroy the Trolloc army and torch Ishy.  It always seemed to me if for some reason he had to stop the series after one book he could say it helped defeat the DO.  But I always wondered what it was really suppose to do, there had to of been better ways to protect the seal, banner, and horn.

 

One of those questions that it would be really interesting to go through Jordan's notes to see if there is an answer to it.   

What might be a good change to make to the Eye to make its purpose clearer or better?  Is it worth changing?

5 minutes ago, DojoToad said:

Here is a collection of opinions for you.  Can't vouch for the quality, but here are metrics.

 

Now we just need someone to chime in with 'sample size too small'

 

Sure those are metrics too.

40% trend towards positive.  46% trend towards negative.  15% hold fairly neutral.   

The question is really how significant is that poll in relation to the overall response to the show?

 To me 190 responses on a fan-forum is a useful snapshot of the book fanbase but it is only reflective of them.  And, that is about the response to the show that I would expect.   It feels very similar to early responses of the LOTR fandom back when those "highly regarded" adaptations came out in the 90s.

It's the equivalent of doing a poll on sirloin at a steakhouse vs doing it at a vegan restaurant.  The forum will influence the results.

6 minutes ago, DojoToad said:

Correct, and that is why we're all here.  To discuss the show and see where we fall with our compatriots.  Very little of our likes/dislikes and opinions can be quantified as @DigificWriter seems to think.

Using my sirloin example, I can easily quantify a negative sirloin opinion.  It is representative of 1/1,000,001 the opinions in the example. 

It's importance and validity derives from its existence but that does not logically corelate to its overall significance within a set.

Basically, individual opinions can be useful but so can collections of opinions captured in metrics.

At the same time, opinions can have various levels of quality beyond their own existence.  How informed is it?  How common is it?  How well-argued is it.  Etc.  

Just now, DojoToad said:

So if I think sirloin is poor quality, the statement is invalid because metrics?

Metrics in this case are somewhat relative.  If you don't like sirloin that tells us that 1 person doesn't like sirloin.  If a 1 million people tell us that they like sirloin that tells us that 1 million people like sirloin.   And, we can gauge the relative significance accordingly.  If you're in the grocery business you're more apt to focus on the million sirloin likers and disregard the 1 disliker.   The same applies to books, tv shows, and pretty much everything else.

That is not to say that individual opinion is not important on its own or invalid.  It just isn't all that useful beyond a certain point. 

18 minutes ago, Gothic Flame said:

Yes, because it's his story that he's telling. Not Jordan's.

Mileages can vary of course.  There was Jordan's whole Champion of the Light/Amerasu concept that he talked about.  Replace Dragon with Champion of the Light and you get a synthesis of the two things with the same observable phenomena.

As it is the possible places we've seen this change implemented  are in the doubts of prophetic interpretation and possibly the female voice speaking to Logain neither of which are particularly large changes (to me).  Perhaps, that changes down the road, who knows.

44 minutes ago, Gothic Flame said:

Most know that the first few shows need to win the viewers over. 

Generally, if you make it to the third episode you will more than likely watch the remainder of them. 

Netflix did a study on it a few years ago and I am sure that Amazon has done something similar to work up their release schedule. 

2 hours ago, LordyLord said:

If you compare the 2 versions, The Books version is SUPERIOR. The Books version has our main characters going on a daring awesome rescue and is overall more epic than what we get in the Show.This is a big reason the Plot change involving Stepin is a BAD change.

 

FINAL THOUGHTS

The show is 50% good plot changes, and 50% bad changes. Gives a mixed experience

Alternative take.   Egwene and Perrin find the means to rescue themselves.   That increases the use of active agency for their characters and reduces the number of times that Egwene functions as a damsel-in-distress in need of rescue.

1 hour ago, flinn said:

 What is the... anyone who goes to the eye who is not the DR will die? Does that include her and Lan?

 

 Seems like another one of those changes that just complicates things for no real reason.

It probably serves two purposes.

1.) Give a plot/narrative reason for the others to stay behind and do other things to make the showdown at the Eye less confusing. 

2.) Maintain a degree of in-world mystery as to whether the DR is really the DR in the eyes of people in the show.   The DR proves they are the dragon 3 times before it is finally settled.  That can be pretty redundant in a film adaptation so building a little in-world are-they/are-they-not question makes sense to setup the next two.

The rather predictable response will be that many fans who were afraid that they were changing who the dragon is will continue to harp on that doubt.   But, the structure is present in the books, so it isn't all that big of a change for books 1 through 3.

28 minutes ago, Hobo said:

Can be and are are two entirely different things. I understand this isn't exactly like the books(unfortunately), but when they reach the Borderlands through the Ways and are heading to Fal Dara, there was snow. I remember RJ describing the difference in building design so buildings wouldn't collapse under snow.

 

I just expected a snowy fortress is all. Just another thing that to add to the list of changes.

I suspect that this would be one of areas where the 'GOT-like' factor influenced their choice.

On 12/13/2021 at 4:25 PM, WheelofJuke said:

I appreciate this, but Rafe Judkins is very much NOT Rembrandt. ??

Thankfully!

That old pile of bones hasn't done anything good for what seems like 300 years.

?