4 hours ago, expat said:

Isn't this the inherent dilemma of world building in such an elaborate setting as WOT?  There is a lot of lore that is either skipped or just dropped in without adequate explanation/emphisis throughout the shows. 

TBH, a lot of this "missing lore" is meaningless within a TV show context.   That's just a functional difference between displaying things visually versus describing them in words.   

Another way of saying this might be, there is a lot of lore that is relevant in words but irrelevant in pictures (because the pictures allow you to see differences immediately).

33 minutes ago, gibbons said:

This argument would make sense with the show depiction of the characters, but kinda falls flat when you add in the missing details from the the books. Lan starts training the two rivers trio to fight near enough from the start of their journey which in itself is months but really Lan seems to mostly be adding onto existing foundations, except sword forms with Rand.

There is no particular reason to assume that they do not have those same "foundations" in the show.  Rand obviously does with the bow in the show.  Moreover, if you watch how Rand moves with the sword in episode 8 there are signs of additional training. 

Points to the differences between "not shown", "not shown but implied", and "not shown yet but still possible" for these bookish elements.

Obviously, the actor playing Rand would have drilled/practiced a bit with the sword for episode 8 in their prep phase so the motion being more "natural" stems as much from that as it does anything else.   So, he would show improvement over time as a result of that regardless of if they show it on screen.  

33 minutes ago, gibbons said:

Rand: Flame and the void from Tam which if I recall right is a blademaster's thing, I also suspect that the mentions of the sword "belonging with him" despite being a novice ties into Lews Therin in the same way that Rand sometimes knows how to do things with the power that he shouldn't.  Archery + quarterstaff from two rivers upbringing.

We can argue about whether the flame and the void was visually represented in the archery scenes in Episode 7.  I'd say they were.

One under appreciated aspect of episode 8 is that the show clearly referenced Rand's need to learn the sword in his conversation with Ishy.   That may serve as the foundation to show him training with the sword in season 2.  It runs parallel to his need to learn to channel from the books.   

The difference here is that in the books there was more time to show small bits of training but screen time on the show is more limited.  

33 minutes ago, gibbons said:

anyway i'm rambling, but it seems that all three characters are being made less than they were. These are not supposed to be young boys with no skills, they are young men each with their own skill sets and it feels like it is glossed over, Perrin and Rand in particular.

By the end of the episode, two of the boys are shown to have killed a trolloc.  Rand is shown reflexively drawing his bow on the Quarry Road.  Rand is shown reflexively drawing and firing his bow at a trolloc during the farmhouse scene.   Rand recovers from being thrown across the room in the farmhouse to kill the Trolloc from behind.  Perrin is shown going mental on a Trolloc with an axe.

Basically, the show showed them being combat capable at a similar level just like the books did.   Mat really doesn't do much combat-wise (at least as far as I can recall) until he gets healed from the dagger and has the quarterstaff scene at the tower.  

Do they have room to develop additional capabilities?  I'd say yes.   But, thematically the ways things are setup for season two, they have a lot more reasons to do that following episode 8 then they did before episode 8.  So, I don't see it as them lessening the boys as much as I see them not having the need (or space) to do those things yet.

7 minutes ago, CanisNoir said:

 

I agree, I wasn't too happy with the way they introduced his Character. It seemed to me they did it simply so that Moiraine could "put him in his place", but then again Moiraine said "I'm not here to advise you" and then went ahead and advised him, so while he came across as a little disrespectful, she came off as a little naggy. Neither were painted in a great light.  As the audience we empathize more with Moiraine though because she is our main protagonist. But like I said, in the end, Agalmar went out like a boss, his honor intact. Meanwhile Moiraine was played by Ishmael and Amalisa lost control and killed people. 

 

I found the reaction of some fans to this scene amusing it bordered on "how dare Agelmar disrespect Moiraine like that".    I thought it was well done.   

Why would the borderlanders be warm and welcoming to a random Aes Sedai after the fall of Malkier?  And, if they were warm and welcoming how much of it would just be them putting a polite face on to hide their inner-thoughts and feelings?

RJ liked to show the Aes Sedai being wrong a lot.  It is one of the ways that he deconstructed the power structures that he crafted in the books as the series went on.

21 minutes ago, WoTwasThat said:

And when I read that, I was like “uh oh… that’s concerning.” And then I chastised myself for thinking that, because it was stereotypical and didn’t actually mean he would make wholesale changes to the plot to fit his lens. But then he did exactly what I was worried about. I think “misandry” is too strong a word, but it’s close to what we’re seeing so far. 

Or, it is just the most logical set of decisions based on RJ's basic assumptions in building out his world. 

This touches on a frustration I have with some negative commentary on RJ's writing of women in the books.   He was writing women in the context of a different social construction of reality so they would naturally be written different from our social construction of reality.    

I see the show similarly.  Women within the show's reality have "privilege" because they are less apt to go insane from channeling and that has primary, secondary, and tertiary effects on how societies develop.

So, many of the choices that Rafe and Co have made are perfectly in line with the books.  They are just the parts that a lot of readers can skip or gloss over as they read through them.

The real question becomes less a point about our society but about Rafe's willingness to deconstruct those speculative ideas in the same way that RJ did.      They've put some of Rand's challenging authority in the show already but will they continue to build on it?  That's still an open one.

Just now, Skipp said:

Except for actually dying in tDR, then again this is Ishy we are talking about.

True.  I probably should have specified up to his death. ?

13 minutes ago, Skipp said:

 

This is a theory of what happened in the book.  The "DO" planted several stories of a threat to the Eye meaning to lure the DR there.  After Rand does what he does in the book they find a shattered seal.  So even in the books this plot line has always been a theory as to why the DO pushed our heroes there.

TBH, that is always been my understanding.   

I basically figure that pretty much everything in the first three books goes according to Ishy's general plan.

2 minutes ago, Sabio said:

Mat killed a Seanchan in Book 2 when they were rescuing the Horn.  I think that was the first dagger kill.  I hope it's not the same dagger or they better explain how he got the dagger.  They always could change what it does when someone is stabbed but if he has the dagger in his possession they need to explain how/where he got it.  

I am wondering if we get some Mat scenes shown in flashback or slightly out of sequence with the new actor in episode 201.  

Rafe says we have enough hints that we should be able to figure it out.  So, I am assuming that Fain was Liandrin's man in northharbor and she gave it to him.   But, we're never actually shown what Lan did with the dagger in episode 6, so who knows?

In general, episode 6 is the one that frustrates me in the first season.  I'll probably harp on it for months ?

3 minutes ago, Skipp said:

Doesn't Rand run into Fain while in Far Madding?  But that was the last time I think.

Yes, you are right.   In Winter's Heart.  I just looked it up in one of the wikis.

6 minutes ago, SingleMort said:

I always thought it was important that the dagger was so OP because it created a much bigger threat that someone so evil had something so powerful and that it turned Fain so evil that even other followers of shadow seemed to fear him. Also if Fain is going to fight Rand with it eventually it needs to be pretty powerful in order to create some real stakes.  

Outside of when Fain gets him with the dagger after Rand's duel with the blademaster, do Fain and Rand ever meet again?

Fain has always been an outlier character to me.   I think RJ himself didn't really know what to do with him after a certain point.  (Speculation on my part there.   I wonder what RJ's notes say about it.)

This is kind of a hard question with eight episodes. 

But, basically..

Episode 1 - mostly the same but end at the moment that Rand arrives at the village to see the destruction.

Episode 2 - Build out the departure a little, lose the ferry scene, and have the trollocs chase them directly into SL.

Everything between 3 and 5 is okay with me

Episode 6 - Switch the focus from the Siaun/Moiraine stuff to the B plot of Moiraine handling the arrival of the EF5 in TV.  Have the EF5 all be at the same location before going to the waygate and end with them arriving in the middle of the night/wee hours of the morning.  

Episode 7 and 8 - keep everything much the same.

I'd rather lay it out with 9 to 12 episodes.

With 9, I'd split either episode 1 or episode 6 into two episodes.

With 12, I'd split both episodes 1 and 6 into two and add some of the things you mention back in. 

9 minutes ago, Skipp said:

Because the dagger being an immediate death sentence is critical to the story how?

I always found the dagger a little too over-powered in the books if I am being honest.  But, I also don't have a lot of attachment to the Fain storylines either.

The biggest impact that I can think of is the interplay between Rand's wounds that help him figure out how to cleanse saidin.  But, they can easily arrive at the same destination from a different route for that one.  

9 minutes ago, Skipp said:

We'll have to see what they plan to do this this plot point.  I do wonder how it would have played out if Mat had been present.  Would he have been the one stabbed instead?

Indeed.   As with any "change" the worst possible impact on future storylines isn't always going to be the one that happens.  

My thought on the scene was that the struggle was going to be between Mat and Fain in the throne room.  But, I don't know that having someone injured by the dagger is really all that important.  I understand why the writers would want to put in it but I'm not exactly a fan of it.  We will definitely have to see how it plays out.

12 hours ago, SingleMort said:

Just want to put this out there as a general question; do we think people are more likely to like the TV show if they haven't read the books or more likely to like it if the have read the books? Not to get off topic but I find it interesting that the Netflix live action Cowboy Bebop show launched around the same time as WoT and from what I have heard about that, on average people who had not seen the orginal series (the anime) enjoyed it far more than people who had seen the orginal. Do you think a similar situation is going on here?

One difference between the reader and non-reader is that the non-reader can go into the show without expectations and experience the show as standalone thing.   Us book readers have expectations that can really influence how we receive it.   That to me is why you see a lot of "I liked it better on a rewatch than the first time" from readers.  

I only watched the first episode of the Cowboy Bebop show in netflix (I have all the original episodes on both import and us domestic release dvds) but I didn't run into the expectations problem as much as I enjoyed CB far more back in the day than I do now.  So, I may be an outlier on that one.

Netflix has the added factor of how many shows they'll killed off quickly though.  It can be hard to become too attached to a netflix show at this point if you know that they'll likely to kill it off after the slightest stumble.

35 minutes ago, Sabio said:

Ok here is problem, why didn't Ishy break the seal himself?  If he was right there then couldn't he have blasted it himself?  or did I miss something?

It may depend on where Ishy exists in relation to the seal.  The whole "I was never bound" thing always confused me.  Is he partially sealed in the bore but close enough that he can still reach out beyond the bore?  Or, is he not in the bore itself?

If you think of him as being in the bore itself (even partially) then it would make sense that he would need someone fully within the "pattern" to break the seal because it exists within the pattern much in the same way that Rand has to have the seals fully broken later.

35 minutes ago, Sabio said:

Watching it makes me think Moiraine is shielded. the issue with her being shieled and if it's tied off then only Ishy can remove it.  By book lore even if Ishy died the shield should still hold. Or a whole hell of alot of balefire.  Guess Rafe could change that.  If she's stilled they could have wonder Nyn heal her.

I am thinking that she is shielded despite the comments of both Brandon and Rafe.   I think they responded in a way that created Aes Sedai level wiggle room. 

On 12/25/2021 at 8:07 AM, DigificWriter said:

 

The opinions of a divided fanbase are monumentally irrelevant when it comes to determining the long-term future of this show.

Yes.  I might dispute the "monumentally" but generally I agree with you.

Take, for example, the 50/50 split that someone pointed out on the Dusty Wheel poll.  That's indicative that the show was able to create "coffee pot talk" amongst the fanbase for the waiting period between seasons.  Just because the fans have reason to talk does not mean that it will result in a loss of interest in the show as it can equally drive greater interest in the show for season 2.

On 12/23/2021 at 11:03 AM, TheDreadReader said:

A good rumored example might happen in episode 8.  

 

  Hide contents

Which may be the result of Barney Harris leaving after episode 6 but they wanted to keep the event in for plot structure reasons.

 

Just for reference, I was referring to Fain in the "throne room" scene here.

I am curious if that worked for people?

16 minutes ago, SingleMort said:

But (in the books) the Seanchan are not there to destroy but to reclaim the lands that they feel are theirs by rights of their rulers' decendancy from Artur Hawkwind.

Logically, any "invasion" would include the potential for destruction.  You cannot make an omelet without breaking a few eggs.  And, preparing the battlefield for an easy landing is a more realistic choice if you are starting from an offensive posture. 

16 minutes ago, SingleMort said:

 

They plan to settle and bring these "lost" peoples back to the ways of "enlightenment".

Yes, which can be done after you break stuff.  Breaking things tends to make people seek enlightenment.

16 minutes ago, SingleMort said:

We see in the books that many people are happy to swear allegiance to the Seanchan because they see they are treated fairly by them and allowed to continue with their lives much the same as before because the Seanchan do not consider these people enemies but rather their own people who have lost their way. If there are fortifications it does not appear from the short clip we saw that they were being used to defend against the Seacnchan (maybe season 2 will prove me wrong on this) so destroying merely means the Seanchan will be depriving themselves of such defenses.     

There are no fortifications visible nor does my argument depend on there being fortifications.  It only depends on the concept of preparing the battlefield and a rather realistic sense of war/offensive operations.

There are certainly other ways that the seanchan can accomplish this (considering they have a vertical envelope capability in the books that is an option).   The show writers have options to pick from.   A big wave crashing on the shore to cause destruction and disruption is one of those options.   And, it is a pretty realistic one given the combat capabilities of channelers.

32 minutes ago, SingleMort said:

I guess that's one way to go if they think that will get them the most viewers and it's good that the TV series seems to have created so many new fans. Apologies if I am getting off topic here, but I kinda always thought the point of adapting an pre-existing IP is because you want to appeal to a pre-existing fanbase of that IP. If the series is not intended to appeal to the pre-existing fanbase would not creating a new IP have been a better idea? Because then the writers are not constrained by anything that has come before and if it was good then surely the same fans here who hadn't read the books would still be fans because they just enjoy what they are seeing in the show?

Realistically, they want to appeal to existing fans while at the same time (since the LOTR movies came out and all the Star Wars stuff) they know that there will always be some fans that are not going to accept any adaptation so there is no incentive to court that group of fans.  You can segment existing fans into two buckets.  The ones who will be reasonably getable and the ones who are not.  Focus on the one's you can get and you're apt to do fairly well.

Like a lot of things in business it boils down to the math and numbers have a way of removing  sentimentality out of a lot of decisions.   

The whole book purist/new-ip concept is a false either/or really.  Any adaptation will involve changes so there is no effective either/or there.  The trick is understanding the degree of changes that are needed/unneeded and what the positives and negatives are of those changes.

19 hours ago, king of nowhere said:

that tsunami makes no sense.

Depends. 

From a military perspective, assuming there are populated/fortified areas within the scope of the wave's landing zone, it is an effective way to bring death, destruction, and general disruption along a wide area during the battlefield prep stage.   It would be much more effective then trying sling channeled fireballs for example.   

Having that combat capability would have certainly made a number of military operations easier in our history.

19 hours ago, king of nowhere said:

he whole scene is dumb. it attempts to convey an emotional impact, and it does if you disconnect your brain and don't think of the implications.

Generally disagree.   As a scene in a visual medium it did what it is supposed to do. 

17 hours ago, Ralph said:

That said, although I see why they took it from Rand, I didn't like what they did instead. It is clear Amalisa thought she was throwing her life away like her brother had, because she had no chance of saving the city anyway. Then two mega power cells turned up, but still... And the Eg healing N bit was unneeded. 

Agree on the Eg healing thing, that was just dumb.

After a little more time to digest it, I definitely think that they were going for a Manetheren last-stand vibe from them.  It thematically fits.   

I suspect a lot of the discomfort with this episode stems from the fact that a lot of fans wanted the season to end on a high-note with a clear victory but overall it makes more sense to end on a low-note.

The Amalisa circle thing ties into this point here (in the big picture)

17 hours ago, Ralph said:

7) The tidal wave I thought is going to carry the ships up to the top of the cliffs. We will see

Since, they are introducing the seanchan, they need to conceptually explain the damane/suldam thing.  Having Amalisa draw the power from others in their version of a circle and do a big power thing with it.  And, then you see the seanchan channelers doing something conceptually similar.

As for the wave, that's just a channeled version of a naval bombardment before an amphibious operation to me.   A clever Sanderson-esque way of showing it.  In the real-world, I suspect a lot of combat planners would love to have the ability to produce a giant destructive wave on demand rather than relying on the vagaries of pilots and artillery ranging.

7 hours ago, Guire said:

I now want to see Sul'dam on long boards with damane kneeling on front of board assaulting beach. of course the damane would be holding death cards for spreading on oath breakers bodies.

And, a young Robert Duval as a Seanchan High Lord?

"Charlie, don't surf!"

10 minutes ago, Wassup said:

This is a good question in regards to how tempted Agelmar was to use the horn when he had it in the book. Would he not be so tempted with the ever encroaching blight?  I know there was a comment about it being for the dragon, but non-readers have to be confused as to what it even is. 

Based on the reactions that I've seen, the questions about the horn are secondary ones.  In a general sense, viewers are typically okay with an item not being explained as long as they have the belief that it will be explained later.   I think the show has been doing a pretty good job of doing that in season one.   

Readers tend to have more questions but they seem to hinge on the potential differences between what they know from the books and what they know from the show.

1 hour ago, SingleMort said:

Well now this season is over I really hope with the recast they writers have a total rethink on what they are doing with Mat just like Robert Jordan did. My hope for season 2 is that Mat can become something of his cheeky charming self from the books and that mopey emo Mat is largely forgotten about (I'm talking about the character not the actor just to be clear, not hating on the actor). 

 

I'm wondering if they are not going to include some stuff with Mat in Tar Valon between the Waygate and events in Fal Dara in season two.

If they don't and they keep Mat's connection/desire for the dagger active they can use that as a means to kick off the chase for Fain.  Mat follows Fain.  Everyone else chases Mat.  They end up in Falme at the end.

3 minutes ago, movieguru said:

for anyone who has read and enjoyed the books this series has become almost incomprehensible nonsense. 

Save for all those who have read and enjoyed the books and understand the tv show just fine. ?

15 minutes ago, Sabio said:

Ughh the Nyn protecting Egwene then Egwene healing Nyn still makes my head hurt when I think about it.  so unnecessary.  

Agree.  That was dumb.  I wish they found a better way to end that.   Something as simple as the circle dissolving and Nyn and Egwene collapsing would have been better.

18 minutes ago, Mirefox said:

I second this completely.  They can show as many tangential stories as they want as long as the time spent with the main characters is proportional.  Unfortunately, pacing was all over the place all season long and important story beats were sacrificed for overly-drawn out side stories.  There is a way to do it correctly and there is this.

Season 1 would have definitely benefited from more episodes, longer episodes, or even more flexibility in durations.   A lot of people say 10 episodes would have been better but I think 9 or 12 would be the right sweet spots based on what they did.

One area that I really think they can improve on is their balancing of A/B plots. Episode 6 certainly could have used more time in the B plot.  Episodes 1 and 8 really needed to be split into two episodes.