On 7/23/2022 at 5:02 PM, Deadsy said:

My theory is the man walking in all black with a hood up is actually Rand and they'll have him kill some darkfriends like in tDR.

This is a good theory.  I'm thinking it's Rand too. There's a rock that he's approaching that could well be a portal stone prior to the VFX. 

On 4/9/2022 at 11:47 PM, Andra said:

The problem is that we have already had a very strong hint (from Stepin's "altar" of figurines) that there are only seven Forsaken.  If that holds, I suspect that combining two healers into one would be one of the obvious options.  Even given their character differences.

Something that hasn't prevented many of the changes readers object to.

There were 8 statues not 7, and by all the accounts I've seen, the general consensus on the Forsaken depicted based on the design elements on the statues are as follows:

Moghedien

Sammael

Semirhage

Lanfear 

Ishamael

Asmodean

Demandred

Graendal

I think there's a strong possibility that these 8 will be the only Forsaken we'll see on the show. 

Fixed it. 

Cowboy Bebop was bound to fail, as every live action take on anime fails. It had nothing to do with fidelity, but rather taking a story told in a beautiful visual medium and try to tell it in a far less beautiful medium with far less chances to be visually interesting. Easy to see why they don't work. 

It's peak entitlement to be "enraged" over an adaptation not catering to its book fans, but instead trying to find a vaster audience. It's just a show. There are many others.

52 minutes ago, TheMountain said:

I would love to see some humility, acknowledgement of critcism, and a stated desire to do better on the part of Rafe and Amazon in general. I think it would go a long way with disgruntled fans. Instead, we have gotten the ol' "I am the AR-TEEST," "all problems are Covid," and "this show is the best thing since sliced bread!"

Disgruntled book fans are such a minuscule portion of their overarching audience, they have no reason to acknowledge them or cater to them. If the show isn't for you, better find something that is. Rafe owes this group nothing. Better ignore the bitter book fans and focus on the massive audience they've garnered instead. 

17 hours ago, notpropaganda73 said:

One other issue with Rand not chasing the Horn/Fain and not travelling with the Shienarans is not having any relationship with Masema. His becoming the Prophet will perhaps not have the same impact if we don't see his initial contempt for Rand.

 

I must admit I was surprised to hear he was cast as I thought Masema and the Prophet was something they would cut from the show.

I'm certain they'll find a way to have Rand join the Shienaran search party. Perhaps he'll be overtaken by trollocs and they'll rush in at the opportune time to save him. Since Ingtar is a darkfriend, he could well have orders to get close to Rand. 

I'm not surprised about Masema. I was as certain they'd keep him, just as I was certain about Thom, and for the same reason. The prophet plotline introduces intrigue, the kind of which is what modern prestige TV laps up. It's worth keeping if just for the twist at the end, with Faile assassinating him behind Perrin's back. 

16 hours ago, Jaysen Gore said:

and I guarantee Mat can't be fully healed without the dagger.  As I said in my post, I don't know how it happens, but Fain, the Dagger, Mat, the Horn and the Girls all end up in Falme. somehow. He's the most important of the boys to the Falme / Seanchan story.

I have a hard time believing the show is gonna convolute that storyline. We saw the black stuff leave Mat's body--the same black stuff that had been the visual representation of the SL evil. Show viewers have no reason to think that he hasn't been entirely healed, and to turn that around and say he wasn't, they'll likely feel cheated and confused. Not very smart to confuse viewers with a complex series as is.

With Moiraine's request, they've given themselves another route to get Mat where he needs to be by season 2. Whatever the red ajah/black ajah do to him can stand in for the physical/neural damage he sustains from the dagger. It's better storytelling in a show narrative, since it gives Mat added reasons to be wary of Aes Sedai, and it gives the black ajah some wins. 

I'm also gonna have to disagree about the importance of keeping the Falme story as it is. The Seanchan being defeated has no longterm relevance. They're back in two books. And Geofram Bornhald is prime to lead his army and die to fight them--perhaps giving Egwene and the girls a way to escape the madness. Otherwise, the horn being blown, Rand vs Ishamael, Ingtar's sacrifice etc. can all be done at Tear. Better there as Moiraine can be an active participant (by balefiring a forsaken), rather than sit on the sidelines because of the Seanchan. 

Looking back at season one and how rushed much of it felt, I pray Rafe won't try to cram everything that happens in TGH and TDR into one season. Better to streamline the two story arcs to the TDR final by having Padan Fain lead the search for the horn to Tear instead of Falme.

Plotline 1: 

Perrin, Loial (tainted by the dagger perhaps), Moiraine and Lan join the search for the horn to Tear. But otherwise follow the story beats of their TDR arc (meet Faile, free Gaul, Fight Be'lal?)

Plotline 2:

Rand travels to Tear for the same reasons as in the books. Only difference is the journey which follows his TGH plot (portal stones, meeting Selene, ends up travelling with the shienaran army).  The only difference is I don't think he'll end up in Cairhein.

Plotline 3:

Mat gets captured and tortured by the red ajah (many of whom are black ajah) per Moiraine's request inciting his series long fear of Aes Sedia. He's healed at the White Tower and follows his TDR plot, with a minor change. Instead of going to Caemlyn I think he and Thom end up in Cairhein where his ta'veren impact replaces Rand's part there. Thom kills the king and they flee the city on the verge of a civil war to end up in Tear.

Plotline 4: 

The girls start at Tar Valon and meet Elayne, end up being tricked by Liandrin and taken to Falme. At this point I think it would likely be mid-season and once they flee, they'll end up chasing Liandrin and the black sisters on their own volition to Tear.

Right or not, I hope they simplify the plot where they can so they'll be able to do the things they will choose to do justice. 

24 minutes ago, Gothic Flame said:

The probkem is you didn't want the characterization that made Lan what he was...

You wanted something entirely different.

The problem is Lan was severely underdeveloped and little beyond a male-fantasy figure and a stereotype of what stoicism is. Of course I would rather this was developed with more nuanced writing. Not all change is bad, but then I suppose this is where we would disagree. 

18 minutes ago, TheMountain said:

Basically: "why are they doing all this stuff?"

 

Yes, the writers wanted to show ritual mourning. 100% understood. But... why?

She wanted to know more about the scene. Why did certain people participate in the ritual mourning, why was Lan the one to do it, why was there throat singing, was it a "warder thing," etc? 

 

It is a complete invention of the show, so anything I say would just be speculation. 

Ah, I see your point. I wouldn't consider any of this as negatives though. The books limit our view into the world, and I find it enriching to see warder traditions and funerals and things being shown. I'm holding out hope for the Lan/Nynaeve wedding being quite the affair, though obvious we have limited insight to the procession. 

4 hours ago, TheMountain said:

Oh, I understood what the writers were trying to do, my comment is that it's just completely off the rails and my wife shouldn't be asking me questions about the show like I know anything in the hell about it lol

 

All bets are off, basically. Nothing is canon.

What exactly didn't your wife understand? It was a funeral procession and Daniel Henney (and Rosamun Pike) did a brilliant job of showing grief. Where's the mystery? 

I knew certain factions of book fans would take issue with Lan being developed as more than just a strong-man stereotype, and likely many have issues with men showing grief at all and see it as weakness. But these kinds of changes are the ones I've been hoping for.

So far this adaptation has done a lot of fantastic character work. Far better work than RJ had done for most of the characters by this point in the series. Having the books and being able to work backwards has certainly worked to their benefit. I do think the plot feels rushed at times, but otherwise, the show is everything I'd hoped for and more. 

After the last episode and seeing how Stepin's deathrage was framed, treated more like a deep painful grief rather than a complete deranged state, I can actually see the show doing away with the entire Lan/Myrelle plot. More likely, I expect Lan will start riding for the Blight, only to be deterred by his immediate need to protect Nynaeve (and perhaps some show plots that get in his way). I can't see the show stripping away his agency the way the books did. He's already one of the most beloved characters by show watchers if you're paying attention and they will require his character to have more room to grow and change. Additionally, his grieving for Moiraine will be cathartic for the audience who will want to grieve her loss as well. 

On 5/21/2021 at 8:14 PM, SinisterDeath said:

Either way, I still wish they'd have at least did one scene with the cloak and then hide it away for convivence/plot. Hell, I'd settle for Lan whipping out his cloak during the Blight. 

That might be a slippery slop, because yes as book fans we’d be excited to see them. But TV-only fans will be left confused and find it an inconsistency when the cloaks don’t show up again. I expect the biggest rule they have will be to keep things consistent, which the books themselves suffer from. 
 

Overall I do expect the show will be different than the books in more ways than some of you are expecting. The problem with internal narrative isn’t solved by having characters blurt out their thoughts and motives at all times. Even if they did that kind of characterization and world building will be hollow. Instead they’re tasked with showing us things like Perrin’s struggle with and aversion to violence through scenes that explores his mindset and the reasons for it, making sure the viewer can relate to and understand him without the luxury of reading his thoughts.

For me personally, what’s key are the character journeys. Not everything will have to be done as it happens in the books, and I’ll be sorry to not see aspects of the book I dearly love, but as long as the characters’ arcs stay true to the core of what these kids experience and the ways they change, I’ll be pleased.  

9 hours ago, Elessar said:

A few added thoughts in view of the last few comments.

 

First we have Canon from Robert Jordan. This is his story to be respected which we are all so lucky to be enjoying. Apart from that vital point, I disagree with those who do not see this as a coming-of-age story. That is how Robert Jordan wrote it and that is what makes it so fascinating and fulfilling as I see it. The fact that the three boys are boys at the start makes their journey all the more satisfying as they mature and grow as persons, with life-experience and responsibility, becoming who they had the potential to be as adults and more. Take that away, make them less innocent and playful from the start in the tv-show, more mature and ‘ready for the outside world’, exemplified by say a 'married Perrin', and you lose that aspect which in my opinion would be harmful to the story.

That’s your interpretation. Coming-of-age involves a gradual growth from childhood into adulthood and that’s simply not what we got in the series. Take Mat for example, he goes from pulling childish pranks and getting excited about treasure like a 12 year-old to gambling, drinking and seducing tavern maids. Did we see this change happen over the span of the series? No. It happened off-page. RJ fast-tracked his maturity akin to giving him a personality transplant from book 1-2 to the rest of the series. Take Perrin next, he goes from being grossed out by Faile’s cooties in book 3 to the start of book 4 where he has matured into a 20 year-old bloke with a girlfriend and a beard. Did we see this transition on page? Not really. Rand’s personality transplant happens between book 2-4, though mostly because he’s missing from the entirety of book 3 (his sanity got a massive retcon there). Now I think Rand’s journey between books 1-2 is great, and 4-on is also great. But again he loses his father’s sword and in the next book he’s missing, and the next time we see him he has massively fast-tracked into the Dragon Reborn. I can’t give RJ props for progression that’s left off the page. 

What we do see is the way these young men—not boys—become great mythical leaders. Sure there are fantastic progression regarding responsibility and sacrifice here. But the childhood part was largely an inconsistency RJ himself leapt over when the tone of the series changed in TSR. Logically, Rand, Mat, and Perrin are 19 at the start of the series, in a culture where they should’ve been considered as adults by 14. Their immaturity in book 1 felt like a mistake if anything. I don’t understand wanting the show to stay loyal to aspects of the series that seem largely inconsistencies. 

On 4/19/2021 at 1:14 PM, Thrasymachus said:

It also significantly sets Perrin apart to already be married.  Perrin would no longer be a boy with Rand and Mat, but a married man.  That puts him in a completely different thematic, narrative and social position to Rand and Mat early on, and it's thematically and narratively important for them to all begin in the same thematic, narrative and social space.  This is a coming-of-age story for the boys and Egwene, and to a degree, Nynaeve as well.  It's a story about how they take that last step into adulthood, finally becoming their own persons and earning the self-respect and respect of others that goes with that.  That's a theme that's significantly undermined by having one of them already an adult with a family, even a new family, of his own.

I don't expect any of them will be "boys" at the start of the show. It would be jarring for Marcus, Barney and Josha to act as immature as RJ had their characters appear in the first book. Furthermore, from the leaked audition tapes Mat seems to be a gambler from the start, spending his free time drinking at a tavern instead of a boy pulling pranks like he's still 12. Rand and Egwene's relationship also appears more mature, like early adults and not grade schoolers. Perrin being a young newlywed wouldn't make him so different in that case. 

I have no attachment to RJ's attempt at a coming to age story, since it was the weakest part of his writing. He essentially fast-tracked all the characters to where they needed to be emotionally, sexually, and regarding their physical abilities. Starting the characters off as a little older actually smoothens the transition from books 1-3 to the 4 and on. 

3 hours ago, Elder_Haman said:

I don't understand this criticism at all.  There were no "sword moves". There was a glimpse of a single move. How do you get "wimpy and plain bad" from that? 

I phrased it badly. What I'm saying is that our first image of Lan is a cut that makes it seem like he just awkwardly whacked the sword in bad form. I've been excited to see Daniel Henney in action, and they did him dirty with that cut. 

If they're gonna do character promos I wish they'd pay someone competent to make it into something memorable and worth sharing. Compare the stuff we're getting to something just as brief and yet put together well. 

On 4/29/2021 at 10:56 AM, Thrasymachus said:

But so much for an accelerated marketing push.  It was six weeks from the Moiraine snippet.  If they do do a similar treatment for the rest of the main cast and they keep this pace, one could go from conceiving a baby to officially naming it before they're done.  Although, on the bright side (depending on your point of view), the reporting I've seen that has the actors back in Prague to complete season one filming also says that they'll be moving right into season two filming, which pretty much confirms a season two.  Of course, that also still implies a fall season one release at the earliest.

There was a leak about the show coming out in early November, though it's not certain how reliable they are. My hope was that the marketing would be speeding up more, for a late summer release. But looking at their slow crawl of marketing, a November release makes a lot more sense. I hope Amazon knows what it's doing, because late 2021 is gonna be jam-packed with big franchise releases and about the worst time to premier the show. I would almost hope they wait until the winter and release in early 2022 instead. 

As excited as I am for the show, these clips do more harm than good. I don't understand the logic behind giving us our first peek at Lan through a clip that's cut in a way that his sword moves look wimpy and plain bad. I didn't bother sharing the clip on my social media for fear of my friends, who aren't book fans but will likely watch the show, might see it and get a bad first impression of Lan. 

Moiraine's promo wasn't any better. The up close look accentuated the imperfections in her wig and with nothing to distract that was essentially the only take away. 

I would prefer if they show us behind the scene content if they don't care about making the characters look cool in action a proper 10-15 second clip. Whatever the controversy around DCEU, they constantly release these mini teases long before it's time for a trailer, but they take test footage cut them into these breathtaking clips that are actually exciting to share on social media. The first look at JP's Joker or Pattison's Batman still give me goosebumps, remembering them. Our first official peek at Lan and Moiraine should've been so much better than this. 

Good find. It's possible the show Mia Threapleton is filming in Prague is Wheel of Time. Winslet said it was a "little" show, but maybe she was being facetious. In another article Winslet says "[She's] 20 and acting," Winslet told Lorraine Kelly on her show recently. "She's away now in the Czech Republic about to start on a TV series over there." The timing would certainly match. Especially if the plan is to tag the filming of season two to the end of whatever that's left of season one. 

She certainly looks the part of Elayne or Aviendha, both characters who would likely be showing up in season two. 

1 hour ago, Elder_Haman said:

I get the feeling that there's really not much more cast to disclose. Who are we missing still? (I'll be more shocked if the Trakands are in Season One than if they aren't).

There are a couple of notable ones that weren't yet announced. Ingtar, Angelmar, Anglemar's sister, and Uno. None are spoilery since most expect the show to get to Fal Dara by the end. 

There was a Twitter leak about May 12 being the date of the trailer release. If that ends up being true, I could see them skipping April altogether. The wait doesn't bother me if we end up getting something good instead of crumbs.

On 3/9/2021 at 8:47 PM, mistborn82 said:

That could work for Machin Shin but I think you need a physical manifestation, especially after it interacts with Fain and tries to escape.

I could see that scene be shot like in Bird Box, where we "see" Machin Shin through the rustling, lens effects and the whispers. It doesn't have to be a Lost style smoke monster to be present in the scene I would think. 

On 3/9/2021 at 10:39 PM, lt;(^-^)gt; said:

f I was gonna do a Mashadar scene I would come at it from 2 angles. First I'd hammer home the idea that it's like a predator stalking the alleys and shadows. Something you don't see directly but you know it's doing AWFUL things to the trollocs who get caught. Then once that was established I think you could show tendrils blocking the path or slowly moving out from alleyways and kinda gently reaching towards the characters. Just keep it really slow-paced. Effectively scary fog tentacles shouldn't be TOO hard to pull off with a blend of practical effects and subtle cgi, as long as they're not ham-fisted about it.

I like this. As long as we don't have a cheesy tentacle flailing a trolloc around. If we just see the fog appear and then hear the trollocs screaming offscreen it'd be pretty chilling. 

On 3/9/2021 at 10:39 PM, lt;(^-^)gt; said:

For Mordeth, I think a mist transformation could be really cool. And it could play right into their rendition of Mashadar. But that's also not a super easy effect. I think that might be one of the hardest scenes in the early story, to be honest. A good actor for Mordeth will probably be able to nail it, but it's the kinda thing that has a lot of ways to go wrong.

It might be hard casting a superb actor for such a small role. They might get lucky though. I'm just not sure Mordeth is needed if Mat is gonna be finding the dagger on his own. 

On screen horror is conveyed best in atmosphere and what you don't see and are inspired to imagine through subtle cues. I actually hope we never see Mordeth physically. That feeling of being watched from the shadows can be shown through masterful camera work and shadows that don't seem quite right... Horror usually sets the tone by putting the audience at unease through subconscious cues. 

My biggest issue is trying to imagine Mashadar looking anything other than a B-movie horror mist with tentacles. 

As for Machine Shin, I think that one would be far more terrifying as a sound effect, whispering the chanting with nothing more than a subtle lens effect for the visual aspect. 

9 hours ago, zacz1987 said:

What I am more concerned about is the video of it being found in a case rather than being picked up in a room full of treasure. Coming down a staircase from gloomy Shadar Logoth into a room brimming with gold and treasure is a great image which would come across well on screen.

You want a goofy Aladdin treasure scene in what's supposed to be a prestige streaming drama? The Harry Potter movies had similar a treasure scene too. It looks cartoonish in live action, so I'm personally glad they cut it. The show is bound to be full of changes like this, because RJ wrote a lot of goofy things into the series. 

Dusty Wheel did a video where they deciphered the blurred the script in the teaser. The gist of it is that Mat sees a wealthy looking house in Shadar Logoth and enters it, which is when he finds the box with the dagger inside. Then there's an inhuman scream before the scene cuts to outside, by the horses. It's clear their intent is to enhance the focus on the dagger itself and Mat's attraction to it as well as to amplify the horror element. If you step back and consider what's important to convey to non-book readers in this plot point--Mat's motivation for stealing the dagger, the audience's awareness that it's tainted and evil--those will be done much more efficiently the way the script lays it out. They also seem to use horror cinematography to convey the "evil" atmosphere of Shadar Logoth. 

16 hours ago, Thrasymachus said:

The more of these little teasers that come out, with completely unnecessary differences from the source material, the more it looks like we're not getting Robert Jordan's Wheel of Time, adapted for tv viewing.  Instead, we're getting Rafe Judkins' Wheel of Time. 

If you thought otherwise than you have some misconceptions regarding what adaptations are supposed to be. TV adaptations are very much supposed to be the vision of the showrunner. Movie adaptations are the vision of the director/scriptwriter. This show will definitely be Rafe Judkin's Wheel of Time, that's the job.

It's funny to see Peter Jackson get praised 20 years later. Meanwhile LotR fans were scandalized by choices he made. Some of them even indicating he didn't understand Tolkien's work at all... But at the end of the day, those movies are Peter Jackson's vision. And lucky thing, he (like Rafe) is a huge fan boy and massively creative (also hopefully like Rafe). The funny thing is, those awful Hobbit movies would have a chance to be brilliant if given over to Del Toro and let him stamp his visual take onto them instead of Peter's bored one. 

3 hours ago, Thrasymachus said:

I think that what's really bugging me about this deep down is the dagger itself, combined with Tam's sword's lack of crossguards, or Thom's lack of a flute.  That dagger does not look like what's described in the books.  The ruby is supposed to cap the end of the pommel.  The handle is supposed to be wrapped with gold wire, not be a cast, or what looks like to me as gold leaf applied over cheap pewter.  The quillions should curve forward and resemble snake heads.  The blade should be broader and strongly curved; it's a slashing and cutting weapon, not a stabbing or thrusting one.  It's a goddamn chapter icon for goodness sake.  I've seen better ruby-hilted daggers at flea markets.

 

And yeah, it's a minor change.  But it's a minor change that doesn't need to happen.  Nothing hinges on whether the ruby is in the crossguards or capping the hilt.  So why not make it look the way it should?  The same thing with Tam's sword.  Thom's harp changing to a guitar is tolerable because there's a halfway good reason behind it: the actor can play the guitar.  Changing Thom himself to be younger and have a more masculine energy opposite Moiraine is likewise tolerable because there's a purpose behind it.  But robbing Thom of his flute?  What's the point of that?  What's the point of making Tam's sword a generic samurai sword with heron embellishment?  What's the point of making the Shadar Logoth dagger into a cheap dollar-store stilleto?

I don't understand the notion that changes "don't need to happen" when it comes to visual details. I'd strongly disagree because on film/TV visual language is more important than it is in books. RJ could describe whatever however he liked it. Much of it would go over fans' heads in the text. Much of it could look jarring and ugly and could negate the visual narration. On film, so much of the story is told through subconscious/conscious visual cues. If you follow any blogs that delve into costumes or props, the way each department works to enhance the narrative is nothing short of incredible. Book details are only ever gonna be followed in broad strokes when it's not absolutely plot relevant.

As for the dagger, it doesn't look cheap or ugly to me at all. It's absolutely gorgeous. I love the Persian/Ottoman design which is also reflected in the Jali screen over the window. I get excited by adaptations when they use the visual language of film/TV to take the story farther. Shadar Logoth with eastern aesthetics is something I never imagined, but find rather exciting. It opens up the potential for eastern lore to tie into Mordeth's evil, something the books never really delve deep into. 

As for the flute, they just look dorky. I played the flute for years, and I stand by this. More importantly though, making actors play instruments they're not comfortable and natural with sets them up for failure. It never looks right. Instead, letting him focus on the guitar and play the hell out of it will show Thom's brilliance as a performer rather than something the show has to beat down on the audience. 

I really don't understand how fans can expect the show to follow RJ's play-by-play outline for props. That's not how adaptations work. When you move into the visual realm, artists and designers will use their knowledge regarding what looks good on TV screens to shape the aesthetics of the show. When it comes to costumes, props, sets, accents and performances, at the end of the day, everything has to adhere to is the visual language that works for the show. The one audience in 2021 will respond to. While RJ enjoyed his details, his tastes and preferences of clothes/props/etc. aren't gonna be fit for the screen in most cases. Certainly not fit for screens of audiences from 2-3 decades after the books. 

TLDR every choice the artists behind the scenes make is there to serve the show. There was no way this show was gonna follow RJ's exact instructions ever. That's not what adaptations do. 

I'm extremely pleased with the casting. The level of talent they've procured is one of the reasons I'm confident with the show. If fancasts are indication of fans' headcanon, then I'm glad if they don't fit it. Fancasts are usually horrendous.

2 hours ago, SinisterDeath said:

Of the 3 events listed, Comic Con the largest convention, is the hardest for them to justify their presence at, if only because WoT "isn't" a Comic like anything Marvel.
On the flip side, Amazon's "The Boys" will probably make an appearance. Maybe we'll see a fresh announcement of another WoT Book to comic.
Dragon Con, historically makes sense. They'll also find a ton of people who will be excited for WoT & LoTR there. Also, I almost wouldn't be surprised if we'll see some "fresh" WoT TTRPG/TCG's merchandise either this year or the next.

SDCC is general nerd media nowadays, or at least since nerd culture became mainstream. In 2019 Witcher released a teaser trailer there and in 2019/20 His Dark Materials released their season 1/2 trailer. As well shows like Doctor Who and The Expanse making appearances with panels. The issue is that this year is so extremely oversaturated, that I don't see much benefit of leaving the WoT trailer until then. 

Amazon didn't bother releasing trailers for The Boys or The Expanse at SDCC last year. They only had panels for their shows. The trailers were kept to be released a month before each show.

They'll probably break the trend for LotR, and release a teaser trailer anyway as everyone in nerd media is expecting it with the Peter Jackson anniversary coming. But WoT is virtually unknown at the moment. Even a panel for WoT doesn't make sense if there's no trailer released prior to announce the show's very existence.