As a Blue without a Warder, Katrani was not the usual sort to be scouting the yard. Yet it had always been said that she was closer to the Green in temperament, and in general was considered unorthodox in her Ajah, and in sisters in general: her age and her relative strength in the Power often made her tolerated in spite of that, however.

She had not been bonded to a man in nearly eight decades, the span of a lifetime for those born without any connection to the Power, yet the pain still felt as fresh as the day Giran had died, and Yune before him. If their families had any distant relations still alive, they would not remember their names, but Katrani still held their memories close. She did not know how some of her Green sisters coped, taking three Warders or even more at a time, and feeling several of them pass in the three centuries a stronger sister might expect to live. Some men had wished for her to bond them over the years, knowing of her strength in Earth or her exploits in past centuries, but she had not entertained the notion seriously for too long.

She was only here for a brief walk, though also seemed to be passing by for the famed rumor mill that was the Tower guards. She was still a Blue at heart, after all, and the ramblings of Warders or Younglings could be some of the most enlightening source of information for the real happenings in the Tower. Katrani was wearing a rather simple blue dress that might be worn by the average upper-middle class woman of the city, and wore no shawl in the informal setting. Her Great Serpent ring obviously marked  her as Aes Sedai, though, as well as the fact that despite her fully white hair held up in a bun, an onlooker could not obviously discern her age.

"Josanda." She felt that the Brown sister was of a strength to be middling-low rank, but was still courteous to even the weakest sister most of the time. Josanda's relative youth and lack of strength did make her unfamiliar with the sister in question, but she would not have been a Blue if she did not take the time to at least familiarize herself with the large majority of the thousand sisters in the Tower. "I trust your visit home was pleasant?"

She was a bit wistful at that moment. As a foundling girl, the only thing she had to remember home were a couple of letters sent by a shatayan who died nearly two centuries ago, and she does feel that there is something lost in seeing the younger sisters and the initiates getting to be with family. But Tar Valon is her home now, and the Aes Sedai are all sisters; dysfunctional as they might be at times.

I've now adjusted this bio to make the theme-accurate updates that were required! ?

Rand does have the most screen time of all the Emond's Field Five, and in fact out of every character sans Moiraine.

While I do love the Eye of the World, there is a basic fact that it holds out the mystery of who the Dragon is until the very end, while 80% of the POV is of the perspective of the main character. If they did keep that mode of storytelling from the Eye of the World, especially in an incrementally released television show, I wonder if book fans / new readers would instead be lambasting the writers for setting up "the worst twist on television" by presenting the Dragon's identity as a mystery while making it extremely obvious from the get-go to an increasingly genre-savvy viewership.

Thanks for the link! Yeah, you do have to go digging for it, and it's something that appears to be only in ancillary / unpublished stuff for now.

As for the other Dragons, I'm assuming that people are talking about Logain's comments? I am pretty sure that at this point, his perception of what the "Dragons" actually are is incorrect, and that they are either manifestations of madness or his own past lives (who would not be Dragons, since he is a False Dragon). The only Dragon that has been referenced so far is Lews Therin, and if the First Age did have a Dragon (equivalent) I'm not sure that anyone would be able to remember who that was?

Does anybody have a quote that proves that souls are "gender-locked" from Robert Jordan? I can't really find a quote from the books that definitively proves such a thing. The only RJ quote I have found on the matter seems to indicate that it might be true for the Dragon, but not all individuals.

6 hours ago, Cranglevoid said:

All of this could have been accomplished without a sex scene. I guess what irks me the most is that it feels cheap, just like the scene in the bath house in this episode. It has a "Let's draw people in with sex and nudity" feel to it.

 

The Wheel of Time had very little emphasis on sex, but the series feels like it wants to be Game of Thrones Lite, by adding extra scenes just to make people talk about it. It's the same as all the group sex hints in the earlier episodes, which were also completely pointless and just added to stir the pot and be "controversial".

 

Edit: typo

For an adaptation of a book series with pink ribbons and the comical scene of everyone reacting to Elayne and Rand in the Royal Palace of Caemlyn, the sex in Wheel of Time is no less tasteful than what Jordan wrote. The baths were simply people having baths undressed, a cultural phenomenon described by RJ numerous times. RJ's style was basically "fade to black" but not completely nonsexual elsewhere, and if anything the show's approach to sexuality so far is extremely close to the style of the original text.

8 minutes ago, Variant said:

 

It makes little sense for Moraine and Siuan to be so covert about looking for the Dragon Reborn if the Dragon Reborn didn't need to be a man who can channel.  That is the heresy that would get them in trouble with the rest of the tower and especially the red sisters.

 

If the Dragon can be reborn as a woman free of the taint...  Then why A.  would everyone in the world, especially the white tower so afraid of the prospect and B. why would men, especially men who could channel keep claiming to be the Dragon Reborn.

A) Because a female Dragon would probably be envisioned as something like a mega-powerful wilder warlord, who is still destined to potentially break the world again (which is still possible if saidar's uncorrupted, the vast majority of LTT's actions that led to the Breaking happened when saidin was still uncorrupted) and have all nations bow before her. Seems pretty darn scary to me: it's like how, a "sane dictator" is a different kind of scary than a "mad dictator", and not necessarily better, because they know the exact way to inflict pain on you. 

B) Many women and men have claimed themselves as False Dragons. Why does anyone declare themselves a False Dragon, usually because of true belief, and a desire for power or to become some sort of messiah. I don't see how that's really affected.

Just now, Zarathustra said:

1)  Back at you.  It's irrelevant to me and a useless change.  However, you like it.  I still see it as ignoring the source material.  It's,  introducing Traveling, even worse because it completely negates the reason why the used the Way gate.

 

2)  Your view is equally speculative.  However, evidence presently supports an argument about the SF being absorbed into another culture.

 

3)  Dark as in med-tanned.  Siuan had "fair skin" and blue eyes.

 

4)  Jordan made an artistic choice too and he geographically separated races and cultures.  There's a reason why Semirhage was playing in Seanchan instead of W-Randland.

1) If it is Traveling, then it is obviously to a fixed and unchangeable location. There was also a hint I took from someone who interviewed Rosamund, who said to pay attention to the Trivia. From the comment about "experiences" in the Trivia, the ter'angreal seems to create an imaginary world similar to the Chair of Remorse ter'angreal.

2) And I have presented evidence about the Tairens generally not having tattoos in the concept art. As stands, we have evidence that have not "merged" any nations or cultures so far, and the crew speaks highly of the expansiveness of the worldbuilding. However, my general rule of thumb is: only criticize if you actually know something to be a change, rather than simply speculating it as a change.

3) "A charcoal-skinned fellow who might have been one of the Sea Folk, though some Tairens were as dark" (New Spring, 4). It is book canon that a woman with Sophie Okonedo's skin tone could be Tairen, unless you see "charcoal-skinned" as simply having a tan.

4) And they have deviated from Robert Jordan's aesthetic, and this has been obvious for several years. Siuan's fair skin was not fundamental to her character, and Sophie has done an amazing job as Siuan. And it seems like if you are still disliking this change, you ought to at least acknowledge that this is a general issue you have with the show, rather than specific to Siuan or something.

4 minutes ago, Zarathustra said:

That's just it:  it's not good because it's meritless.  

 

Regarding the tats:  They totally blended Tear, if she's even from Tear in Rafe's train wreck, with the SF.  

 

The casting choice is absurd because, again, they ignored the source material.  

To you, perhaps! I have spoken about how the scene represents their intimacy, and that I find it well scripted, well active, and very emotionally resonant. It is profound and extremely compelling, and speaks to the high quality of storytelling, where their own additions can be just as interesting as the material from the original text. 

They have not blended Tear and the Sea Folk. A constant theme I am finding is people getting mad about stuff that is only speculation, even when that speculation is proven true. In the concept art of Tairen fashion, there is a woman with no tattoos, and a separate Sea Folk fashion can be seen with some passersby in Tar Valon. The idea comes from the real world tendency for fishermen and men in the navy to be much more likely to get tattoos, even in a time when tattoos were taboo in the rest of society.

What casting choice are you talking about? Do you mean Sophie Okonedo being a dark-skinned woman, even though 1) Tairens are described as having skin tones that ranges to "as dark" as the Sea Folk in the original text, and 2) they are making an artistic choice that most nations have no distinct look due to the world-government that existed before the Breaking of the World, and you have had 2 years to accept this since the castings of the Emond's Field Five were revealed?

11 minutes ago, Zarathustra said:

I simply don't care and did not when I read the books--it's not in the main sequence and that scene served no purpose other than tapping into a potential praise well and further alienating fans of the books (perhaps you should review the books, because they present a completely different narrative of the two after the death of Gitarra).  It's not good simply because you wanted something that was not in the books.  Of course, the casting choice and the sea folk tats are equally strange.

 

I have read the books, and can enjoy the differences, as the many people have. It isn't good because "I wanted something different" -- it's good on its own merits at presenting a compelling dynamic, and that's what makes it enjoyable at the end of the day.

What's strange about the casting choices? Do you mean the excellent choice to cast two of the most acclaimed actresses out there in the show? And there is nothing Sea Folk about their tattoos, they are fisher folk tattoos (as is very common in cultures across the world) to represent the waterways of the Fingers of the Dragon.

Also worth noting that as an episode with a female director, female writer, female costume designer and assistant costume designer, male gaze is kind of less likely. Sometimes women enjoy wearing dresses like that, lol.

25 minutes ago, Cranglevoid said:

Jesus Christ, I'm talking about a drawn-out love scene that doesn't happen in the books. The fact that they shared a bed when they were training to be Aes Sedai is hardly the same as them having a secret relationship at present time, where they convene in a secret hut with portals leading to it.

 

The point is that the Amyrlin Seat and Moiraine isn't having soirees – it's a completely pointless addition.

Again, it seems that a lot of fans that complain about 'pointless' additions or changes do not realize that a lot of them quite obviously contain very important aspects to the story, be that emotional factors, or simply communicating aspects of the plot to us.

The scene between Moiraine and Siuan conveys several aspects of the story:

• That the antagonism between Moiraine and Siuan is all for show, and that they truly have an extremely close and intimate relationship.
• That for all her stoicism, Moiraine does have her own interests, people who she loves, and a life she does care about on some level -- even beyond her mission to find the Dragon Reborn.
• That Siuan is an ally for Moiraine and her party, but that there is a need to tread very carefully with the politics of the Hall.
• A segue into setting up Siuan as the only person who knows the truth about Moiraine's mission other than herself and Lan, and discussions about the prophecies and how much they can be trusted, and what the group needs to do for the end of the season.

A picture paints a thousand words. Screenwriting is an art, one that is distinct from a novel, and a scene like this is a perfect example of how a different medium has different assets for telling the same story we all love and care about. What's more, with the rushed pacing at certain points being a large complaint, it is great to have a slower and more emotion and character driven scene for the story.

8 minutes ago, Zarathustra said:

I think I'm missing that one.  Si and Mo only interact briefly in the main sequence and I only ever had the impression that they were two close friends that were very driven and had a singular goal--driven to the point that thoughts of relationships never even entered their minds.  There's certainly nothing (that I recall anyway) in the main sequence that would make anyone think that they were sexually interested in one another (or women for that matter).  If anything, statements about hypothetical lives as wives or mothers support arguments about how they preferred men.

 

I think Jordan wrote New Spring and included that as a nod to his fans that wanted Si-Mo while providing a prologue for established fans and a bit of bait for potential new fans.  I preferred the short about the 100 companions, but, that's the magic of art.

 

 

And yet they are able to make the show with the knowledge of all books in mind. New Spring is no less important just because it takes place in history. And there is still a basis for it -- just as there would be a basis for Siuan and Moiraine being married to a man if they took a different path. The Companion explicitly says outright that they had 'relations' and an established relationship. You may not be able to recall something, or perhaps you have not looked thoroughly at the ancillary information, but that does not mean it is not there.

1 minute ago, Zarathustra said:

You seem to have forgotten that New Spring was a prequel and published after the Siuan-Gareth thing had started.  There certainly was not a Si-Mo midnight stroll through a Gateway in the main sequence.  If anything, their allusions to hypothetical lives as wives and/or mothers and their eventual pairings with Garreth and Thom further justify such arguments.  It's a bit strange that anyone would attack those that have issue with that major change to the narrative.

 

Rafe tossed that one in for one reason:  he wanted to tap into the reservoir of praise reserved for narratives that are more inclusive.  It's odd though because he could have easily done that, early on, while remaining within the bounds of the source material by simply focusing on some of the Red characters--I guess he thought he'd receive more praise via the use of two central characters though.

No I haven't forgotten that it was a prequel, but it's a shame that there is a tendency for people to forget the events of the actual books lol. I'm not denying that it's a change, but it's also a good change and one that has a basis in the book series.

People have been liking Moiraine and Siuan together since the books were first published, and yeah, I think that there is a genuine sense of inclusivity from making them main characters instead of a random Red sister. 

And I'm not going to lie: this relationship is more compelling and interesting than the very forced and boring relationships that are Siuan/Gareth and Thom/Moiraine, and an improvement on RJ's "experimented in college" approach to such relationships.

16 minutes ago, Cranglevoid said:

I was actually pleasantly surprised by this episode, even if it had a ton of stuff that pissed me off to no end.

 

Logain's speech was really good and Siuan manages to pull off that sense of power in a good way, though she was way too easy-going and lighthearted compared to the books.

 

And then they had to turn Siuan and Moiraine into lovers, for absolutely no reason at all. They could easily have pulled off the episode without it. But of course, they can't help themselves. They have to turn The Wheel of Time into their personal playground and just jam whatever crap that comes to mind into it.

 

And that's what makes me most angry about this series. They're treating it as if they own The Wheel of Time and they are free to do whatever changes they want. There's zero respect for the source material – they just see it as a gateway to inject their own stories through.

I can't believe Robert Jordan disrespected Robert Jordan's material when he made Siuan kiss Moiraine in New Spring and wrote notes that were published in the Companion about them being pillow-friends. Clearly Robert Jordan has no respect for Robert Jordan, and wanted to make the Wheel of Time into his own personal playground.

1 minute ago, Zarathustra said:

Compare the production quality of Rafe's train-wreck to everyone's favorite benchmark (GoT).  One looks like a you-tube fan-fic production and the other looks like a high-budget, cinema quality, film.

 

Balefire is the only thing that could correct this aberration in the pattern.

Could you please link me to a YouTube fanfiction production with the same quality of Wheel of Time, please and thank you?

I also believe you may be forgetting that

• early Game of Thrones was "cheap", even for 2011 as HBO was willing to give it more budget once it had proven itself as popular, and there were cost-cutting measures such as removing the most important battle of the first book
• There is no budget-munching material just as inherent to Wheel of Time in early Game of Thrones, such as channeling or monsters (their "monsters" were in just a couple of very short scenes early on).
• Even late Game of Thrones, I would say, has inferior costumes to early Wheel of Time:

Anyone who is knocking the costumes needs to tell me that this does not look like a soccer mom who got a sweater and a black cardigan and some dollar store fantasy jewelry, lmao.

1 minute ago, Gothic Flame said:

Had it NOT been billed as an "adaptation of the books" made by a "fan of the books" you'd have a point. 

But selling "A Different Turn of the Wheel" might have been seen as problematic if Amazon wants to lure in an already built in fanbase.

 

It is an adaptation, though, and that is not mutually exclusive with being a different turning of the Wheel: a telling of the story in a different format. An adaptation is not a recreation of a book, or filming a book, and to adhere fully to the standards of certain fans is in my opinion discounting the differences inherent to practically any adaptation. The Shawshank Redemption is great despite differences to the original short novel, so is the Princess Bride even though the original author worked on the screenplay itself, and neither of those projects have the huge task of adapting a 14-book series (each novel being several times longer than average length) with extremely intricate worldbuilding. 

Rafe did say that people should anticipate changes, and did tell people that it is another turning in his AMA. And to me, it is very apparent that there is a genuine enthusiasm and passion for the source material from the way the actors and crew gush about Jordan's world with every opportunity they get. So yes, he is doing what would make you happy, I guess, so make up your mind with that information.

1 minute ago, Gothic Flame said:

Are you talking about the actual books, or is this the Rafe show and his justification for tearing them apart?

This is an omnipresent theme in the books and the explanation of the cosmology of the world. Hell, it's always been an approach followed by Team Jordan, where Harriet encouraged Brandon to be experimental and give the last few books his own flair, because that was the most important thing, which led to scenes like Aviendha at Rhuidean. So yes, funny that fans are far more rigid than both the rights holders of the books and the theme and understanding about storytelling, time, and the nature of the universe of the Wheel of Time that are present throughout the book series.

3 minutes ago, Gothic Flame said:

Yeah...you have a lot of people saying the same things. Book-fans are seeing their beloved books ripped apart, altered, filled in with useless time-wasting irrelevancies and many want to know why. 

Strange that Wheel of Time fans, where a fundamental aspect of the world and the universe is that stories change over time and through different storytellers, and where there is a concept of time repeating itself for the same Pattern with different variations, are apparently so rigid about the story, or cannot notice how just about every alteration serves a thematic, worldbuilding, or foreshadowing purpose related to the book series.

Clearly people must be watching better productions! Because the editing, set design, lighting, speaks to extreme high quality in many ways, and while constructive criticism is always welcome, many comments have been downright fallacious by calling it D-movie level, or display commenters' own lack of understanding of how television and visual media works in general, especially during a pandemic. Not to mention that a lot of evidence about how it is apparently disliked often falls into the realm of anecdotal evidence, because of course the generally good reviews and outstanding success it has had in viewing numbers would likely not support their argument.

I don't enjoy the pacing either, but for instance, many seem not to parse production problems (a lockdown, a main cast member leaving, and Amazon only ordering 8 episodes even though the production team have consistently said that they also want more screen time). And as said before with the "low quality" complaints, many seem to either be genuinely searching for complaints or are apparently great connoisseurs of acting abilities, if they are to call the acting of some of the most acclaimed actors in the industry "high school drama" level. It is rather rare to see complaints that do not end up devolving to insults to Rafe, with apparently few users realizing that e.g. there are different writers like Justine Juel Gillmer writing this episode.

Once more, I do see a pervasive number of people who call themselves "book purists," yet their knowledge of the books is surprisingly lacking. I have not read every comment here, but it entertains me to read people claiming that e.g. not everyone is reincarnated in the books (they are), or that differences in recognizing female channelers in the books somehow means that damane cannot be found (even though it is canonical in the books that they simply test everyone with the a'dam, for instance).

10 hours ago, fitzwell said:

Can you quote where the kiss is in the books?  The only reference I've seen to them being called pillow friends was by another Aes Sedai talking about Moraine and Suine in chapter 17.  Of course you can make of that however you prefer but I believe there were instances where the Egwene and Elayne were referred to as becoming pillow friends yet the reader knows they did not.  Again, it's fine to feel either way I just always took it as hearsay from the other Aes Sedai.  I actually thought the kiss was crazy in the show and started outright laughing at how silly it seemed.  If that is your thing though, you do you.

Quote

"There is one thing I can remedy. May I offer you Healing?" 

Siuan could have kissed her. In fact, she did. (New Spring, Chapter 12)

Siuan and Moiraine turned to one another more and more for comfort, and they eventually became pillow friends, continuing up to the time they were raised Aes Sedai and to some extent for a time thereafter. (Companion)

It is definitely more overt than the book series, but let's not pretend it is somehow baseless. Nor is the scene of kissing, a somewhat coy comment, and then cutting to after the 'action' any more crude or crass than Jordan's writing style e.g. Lan talking about Nynaeve scratching his back to ribbons, or Birgitte's reaction to what is going on between Rand and Elayne in the other room in Winter's Heart.

3 minutes ago, JimGalaxy said:

... and, sadly, there are *tons* of precedents in the books - RJ left main characters off-stage for eons at a time before coming back to them. UGH.

Yeah, Mat is getting the early Path of Daggers treatment.

I am not sure what they are going to do to bring him back, though we do have a year to theorize. It seemed unclear whether Mat got left behind because he was in a daze from being Healed, or because he didn't want to because some remaining evil of the dagger... after all, they could not shoot new footage with Barney, only edit what they already had.

The possibilities I see for bringing him back are that he goes back to Tar Valon for a while and is seen for the first time by Egwene and Nynaeve when they go to the Tower in early Season 2 (or even Elayne if she is a novice in Season 2), or if he tries to go ahead to Fal Dara to catch up with them and makes it by the first episode of Season 2.

1 hour ago, JimGalaxy said:

It's a fair point, and you may well be right. On a positive note, I noted that IMDB credits Harris with appearances in all 8 episodes of season one. ... I *really* hope they don't just go to his 'image in clips' in 7 and 8; that would be regrettable. 

The Barney stuff to be semi-confirmed by Dragonmount itself at this point. IMDb is reliable and you generally do need evidence to make edits that stand, but listing a main actor in all episodes usually wouldn't be contested. And perhaps there is an early script for instance that had Mat in episodes 7 and 8 that IMDb got, without taking into account a rewrite to Mat earlier this year due to behind the scenes events.

I am pretty sure that the final scene was due to Barney Harris's departure. I can't really think why they would separate Mat from the rest otherwise, especially since he was Healed early, which frees up a lot of his TGH storyline. They were using the same footage of Mat a couple of times, or at least that seemed to be the case.

Taylor,

Maksim (as Owein) is a character in the book series, but we don't really know him very well at all compared to many other characters. Did you feel like it was more difficult to play a character who doesn't have a distinctly memorable personality from the book series, or was it easier to start from scratch, compared to your fellow cast members like Priyanka Bose or Daniel Henney whose characters people know very well.