obviously this includes Turin as well

peace and berf is the easy solve I'll think some other time maybe

lol I should have never opened the thread today and just called it a day 2 with my defense on SD standing tall and my intent to vote on Turin

I should note that Ed being given a gun is way less clearing than my initial assumption that he was a dayvig. If it's a gift then someone knows you have it so wolves can't just freely blast whoever they want. Using it on the counterwagon is still a relatively good look vs trying to reach for a reason to be more brazen but Ed was afk most of D1 so I dunno like, what else you would do with it there as either alignment.

UNVOTE VOTE: SINISTERDEATH What a world lol

"19. Symp – A Symp is a player who is aligned with Town, but who wins with the Mafia. This player will be given the names of the Mafia members, but the Mafia team will not be given the Symp’s name" The verbiage heavily implies what Turin is saying.

For what it's worth, in a flipless world I would all in on a zero bus powerwolf agenda because no one would ever know I'm wrong. Might play through the motions of second guessing myself to look genuine but I would still come out of it hard defending him. Which is kind of what it would look like I'm doing from your pov right now if you're town, right? Your head's in a villagery place AND you were proactive about explaining why Darthe isn't a realistic third option when, if you are a wolf, I gave you a golden opportunity to expand the POE. All SD has going for him is passive. Maybe he never got a chance to fake solve because he has been public enemy #1 since the game started? Maybe he was coached to do things he normally wouldn't last game? I dunno. Does it make sense for him to be paired with Peace? I dunno that either, would have to ugh reread things. But I'd rather be fooled because a wolf played well than because a wolf played wolfy but did so slightly different from last time. Going to post to see the vc and then I am JOINING THE CAUSE unless it's hammer.

I mean, he definitely artificially inflated his posts with the horoscope gibberish often but it usually followed a briefer game-related post in which he took stances, something he hardly did here. But it's irrelevant at this point because with the clarity Turin gave on the Mentalist role I agree that this is a two-way debate not a three-way, and I don't see a likely world where we lynch Turin before SD. At this point I'm mostly just annoyed that I won't get to find out who was right until the game ends.

I'll say this, the way he danced around claiming today was the worst I've felt about him. As much as it should be obvious for a wolf to just claim and twtbaw to still himhaw about it, I've seen wolves hesitate in his position so many times. In other words, the writing is on the wall and I am grasping for ways in which my D1 take might have been wrong. XD I swear though what struck me so much in his last wolf game was the absence of unclarity. Were his reasons goofy? Sure, but he was persistently forthcoming about where he stood, vs I've had no idea what his opinions are here. Disparities between games matter a lot more to me than whether someone's baseline play style makes sense. A bit of couching from his then teammate Darthe that didn't stick around post-game perhaps? I guess I'm going to find out sooner or later.

Oh No, if the lost wolf peeks green then Mentalist has no wolf utility, so we'd be back to the only potential for messing with Darthe's claim as a bus driver. Weird to make the most difficult to read wolf slot a godfather, but I guess it does prevent concerns like mine at least.

Leelou and Dice night kills over me, Darthe, or Ithi Ithi and me were the loudest on both sides of the SD debate and had a lot of thread pull. Wolves obviously had a lot of respect for Darthe's game, killed him once already. We were the conventional n1s. Old timers less likely to follow convention, and I'm told Leelou's suspects were old timers. Fear kill or classic minimal info kill both kinda cater to the same POE. I voted Peace because I was told Leelou sussed him + it made sense to me that neither me nor Ithi died in a world where Ithi was wrong on SD and I was wrong on Peace (I called him my top villager early). Digging into Peace is where my head's at but I probably won't read back at all before n2 and we have the Mentalist claim. I'm not as confident that Turin is a wolf as I want to be. Not at all. I also don't feel confident about SD being town anymore because memory is fleeting. I'm going to hold on to how I felt about him when I was invested D1, because while I botch wolf reads all the time, it is extremely rare that I am that confidently wrong about a village read. So between the two, would vote Turin. If mechanics exist that allow us to alignment check one of them, given we won't get a flip, I am not at all opposed to going after another wolf first and letting this stew. I dunno what we have left out there mechanically speaking. Ok gnight might not be back until eod

Ed shooting Heavy is so not a wolf thing to do that in a more normal game I'd give him a very long pass for it and given the highly limited info we have to solve things I gotta roll the dice more than usual. Can wolves ride easy with simple gambits in this set-up? Seems like it yeah. I'm still probably going to clear him all game for it.

What a rabbit hole I have embarked down lol I don't care enough to keep digging. Turin hasn't had a spark moment of blatant villageriness but the one I quoted as a good post does resonate a bit with what I read him as town for correctly before. SD's D1 looked profoundly different from what I saw skimming through a couple posts in his wolf game with the important note that he didn't have any posts in this game that resembled the ones I consistently found there. Could it be because I didn't check early enough and caught a different stage in his ramping up process? Perhaps. Given flips I would have been pretty ok with killing him D1 for info. What if he deliberately changed his play style is utter nonsense and no one is simultaneously skilled enough to do that at will and bad enough to get killed within the first two days as either alignment every time anyway. Doesn't happen. If he's a wolf here it's precisely that I was looking at the wrong phase of his performance process and I really wish someone had met me half way on his meta instead of just tossing out people change their meta all the time and but he said the word lightning rod in both games and that sort of nonsense. I still think it's unlikely. Darthe is uniquely hard to read because he's quite good at this game. Is there wolf utility in Mentalist? Yes. Would he exploit having this role as a wolf to difference check two villagers? Of course he would. Now what lol I think we got off to a very bad start on the mechanics in terms of losing our best roles early. It is what it is. Perfect storm of the site doesn't allow searches and ctrl+f functionality breaks and doesn't return every post and we lost our abilities to see alignments, I'm somewhat irritated because answers are out there but I don't want to put in the time to find them. Leelou and Darthe 1.0's reads have to matter, right? Right? Wolves aren't just killing all the people who are wrong and then not making any effort to get us to sheep them, right? Who did they think were wolves. That won't resolve the Turin/SD/Darthe 2.0 migraine but might contain the answer to who the other wolves are.

Hmm Mentalist has wolf utility to find a lost partner. Could have even truthfully used it on Sinister and Turin since no one is going to question an investigative on Sinister and wolves could have viably thought Turin was their lost guy. Might have just lied about the results because oOoOoOoOo a bus driver exists we still have plausible deniability.

This is a good post. This has a little emotion behind it. I didn't want to find good posts you're making it hard. What if Darthe's just a wolf and the whole thing is a charade to easily lock up the game lol

Both of these posts are fine. For one thing Turin would have been a good target for a bus drive for precisely the reason he stated. I don't know that I should put too much weight into the mindset behind hypotheticals but I generally know when I'm a good cop target and when I'm not and Turin would have been a good cop target n1 I feel. It at least makes sense. For the other, I kind of expected that town!SD would suss me for the defense yesterday and town!Turin would suss me after the difference check. Both did to some extent, so that kinda breaks even.

Oh I thought he was cop or something. Yeah this is why I avoid mech. Ok Dice and I always disagree on what's mechanically optimal so I don't think that's wolfy for him at least.

SD brings it up first. That complicates things. Turin was giving a full overview of mech and bus driver was already on the table. He didn't raise it out of the blue. Unfortunate because I like easy solutions. I dunno man Turin's headspace is just so inaccessible to me in this game. I had my longer post about it earlier which he didn't offer a response to. But here too there's no gusto. Like ok Turin must have had pretty firm convictions about SD on D1 given I was hopping and shouting about don't lynch SD don't lynch SD and he was all nah that guy is definitely the best lynch candidate. He didn't miss it because he commented on it. Now you've got a difference check between yourself and your top wolf read, someone you're already invested in. Where's the vindication? You nailed it and stuck to your guns in the face of opposition and voted a wolf D1 right? Like, hell yeah right? You aren't voting him because it's mechanically optimal because there was a difference check and you know you're town and the probability of bus driver is yadda yadda. Come on. That's your pelt. There's no joy in it. It's so mechanical and dispassionate. We all express ourselves differently but I expect a little fist pump somewhere. Vs a wolf here wants to ride the upper hand they have going into it and try to avoid a thunderdome at all costs. Could just be a bus driver but this is the best lead we got yeah right your top suspect just got difference checked with you. I don't like it. What makes it hard is SD kinda did the same thing. SD was never pushing Turin, so there's that. The wolf SD I saw skimming the last game didn't hesitate to call people wolves aggressively, so there's that. Hmm.... There was a post in a game I helped Ithi do VCs in where I read one sentence out of Turin's mouth and said he's town for this. I'm going to go find it. I need to get my head back into how he thinks.

I'm digging back to who started the bus driver speculation and if it's Turin I'm firing up my chainsaw.

Did we get a claim of who used the Necromancer role? Heavy's a weird target because he was a contentious slot. I'm not DPR but I know if I was designing this I would give wolves at least one pro-town role. Maybe that's just how my sick brain ticks, but giving wolves Apportioner so they can use it on their own night kill and claim it is just the sort of thing I'd do and just the sort of play I'd conspire towards as a wolf. It falls into the zone of a healthy trade-off where what wolves have to give up isn't game-changing and it buys them a lot of mechanical cred. I'm not sure it would have worked that way anyway with n0 factored in, but bottom line is just I don't understand what's clearing about Heavy's role vs say, something more straight forward like a cop or governor where the optimal play would be to just eliminate the role altogether/dramatically shift balance by denying a wolf lynch in a game that already has minimal alignment information. Starting off a wolf with either of those wouldn't make as much sense. Not to create more problems than we already have, just when I take a quick peek at the mech I don't get what's clearing about Heavy's claim and I don't get why a one shot necromancer would revive the guy with the #2 most votes at EoD instead of waiting and using it on someone wolves kill. Anyway, not going to dive too much more into mech I hope.

I was trying to dig up Turin's case for SD and I think I skimmed all of it though I no longer have it open in front of me. What bothers me about it is a personal thing that's kind of weird to articulate but Last time we played together I happened to be very right on D1, and Turin happened to be a wolf, and wolves killed me N1 and I heard a lot of accolades post-game. I'm not trying to say this like *I'm all that* and should be blind sheeped to victory. But I expect Turin specifically to, in light of the last game and his post-game reaction, and in light of him feeling pretty confident that I'm town here, to not take my most confident reads lightly. I know I do this often and am pretty ready and willing to give extra attention to the reads and reasons of people I think are town and have high confidence in. It bothers me that Turin kinda glossed over my take. He didn't ignore it outright, but it was a sort of one-liner dismissal that didn't weigh the equity of what I was saying. Should Turin have given me more credit? Maybe not. Certainly if SD is the wolf between them then my D1 was quite lacking. Would village Turin have given me more credit? When I'm a villager in his shoes, I would. It feels like the natural thing to do there, for better or worse. So even though it's very possible that he is a villager who is playing a lot better than I am in this game, it kinda sketches me out. That being said, if he was a pack wolf, I think I would be dead. After all, he killed me n1 last time when I was right a lot, and if he's a wolf in any world but wolf!Darthe faking the difference check on two partners to clear one of them, I must have been right a lot again. So lost/lone wolf--I assume that's what we're calling a symp here--makes a fair bit of sense to me. Me being dead wrong D1 also makes sense to me, I just feel like town!Turin would be more distracted by my bad reads in that world? I am a retired tryhard and do not intend to get intensely invested in solo solving everything in this game or any others, so I'm not going to fight for it or meticulously read all of his or SD's posts to achieve the most informed possible conclusion. But that's where my head is at right now.

Site lag is rather cumbersome right now. Trying to find something but I only have a few minutes and each page of the thread is taking half a minute to load.

I heard someone mention symp That would make more sense for Turin than pack if he's a wolf imo

I keep forgetting Darthe isn't a confirmed villager who was resurrected

oh Turin always had some wolf equity but I guess in the absence of flips we can kill them both